You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
AMDA response to Race Foster
- Thread starter dizzy
- Start date
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
Mitch-
"I don't think they are breaking any laws. "
Let's put another spin on it...
I am a large American automaker by the name of Phord and I and my factory are based in Detroit. Would you consider the following to be false advertising?
"Hi, I'm Chase Andrews, CEO of Phord. Our employees care very much about you and your choice of cars. We want you to be happy, and more importantly safe. That's why our staff of expertly trained safety engineers rigorously safety check every car that leaves our plant. We believe in the quality of our product, and believe in the engineering and safety of our American made products. The employees here at Phord appreciate your business."
The actual truth is that Phord cars are not built in Phord's factory, they are built in Taiwan by another company that ships them directly to the US market. There are no Phord employees in Taiwan, and no Phord safety engineers checking the cars after they are built.
Wouldn't you consider this false advertising? Just change some of the names/wording and you have F&S and their marketing spin.
Are they breaking any laws...probably not. But there is a big leap between false advertising (civil action) and fraud (criminal action).
In my book, they are walking a very narrow edge and may be slipping over into false advertising...in the least it is bad ethics.
"I don't think they are breaking any laws. "
Let's put another spin on it...
I am a large American automaker by the name of Phord and I and my factory are based in Detroit. Would you consider the following to be false advertising?
"Hi, I'm Chase Andrews, CEO of Phord. Our employees care very much about you and your choice of cars. We want you to be happy, and more importantly safe. That's why our staff of expertly trained safety engineers rigorously safety check every car that leaves our plant. We believe in the quality of our product, and believe in the engineering and safety of our American made products. The employees here at Phord appreciate your business."
The actual truth is that Phord cars are not built in Phord's factory, they are built in Taiwan by another company that ships them directly to the US market. There are no Phord employees in Taiwan, and no Phord safety engineers checking the cars after they are built.
Wouldn't you consider this false advertising? Just change some of the names/wording and you have F&S and their marketing spin.
Are they breaking any laws...probably not. But there is a big leap between false advertising (civil action) and fraud (criminal action).
In my book, they are walking a very narrow edge and may be slipping over into false advertising...in the least it is bad ethics.
dizzy":1cy329f4 said:Makin'Waves1":1cy329f4 said:Not new to this forum, as I used to go by the handle MILPIL. Have been reading with interest on the whole e-tail B&M argument, and can agree about the whole order fulfillment process, however, this is the model that only SOME of the e-tailers use.
Well here is at least a partial list of etailers that are getting a better deal than the average Joe retailer. F&S, MD, PetSolutions, and Dr. MAC. Does anyone else know of any others that need to be added to the list?
News to me that I am getting any different deal than anyone else that buys from the LA wholesalers. I pay the same and get the same selection as anyone else. In the future please do not use my name, I have no desire to get into the debates that go on here. I have a B & M business and do sell online also, I am not an "etailer" as you have catagorized me. Thanks, Mac
Perhaps but who really cares? WalMart used to say: "Always the low price, always." Someone called them out on it and made them change it to "Always low prices" Did it effect their business one way or the other? Probably not. Hobbyists care about pricing and the guarantee mainly IMO.
Mitch
Mitch
Dizzy,
Since I know who Dr. Mac used to get some of his stuff from, I can honestly say that he cannot be lumped in with the Dr.'s or with MD. Even MD cannot be lumped with the Dr.'s as they have distributorship rights to most everything that they sell. Livestock wise, MD does go around to the various wholesalers, and "Cherry picks", however this is really not all it's cracked up to be. Some of the more ethical Wholesalers will place a limit on how many fish or corals can be taken of certain species. QM does not even allow some e-tailers in anymore, even if you are a B&M with a website to sell online. The largest problem is that you do get some e-tailers out there that DO drop ship from Wholesalers and manufacturers 100%, and they drive out a lot of people from the hobby. This happens with B&M's that don't give accurate advice or just sell to the customer, knowing full well that the people will be back a month later to buy more and more, because the set up that was sold to them was inadequate. We hear it all of the time, from people face to face and over the phone. When we hear this, we always point them in the right direction, a BOOK and tell them to read it, so they can filter out the B.S. that someone might tell them, and see what's logical with the rest.
:mrgreen:
Since I know who Dr. Mac used to get some of his stuff from, I can honestly say that he cannot be lumped in with the Dr.'s or with MD. Even MD cannot be lumped with the Dr.'s as they have distributorship rights to most everything that they sell. Livestock wise, MD does go around to the various wholesalers, and "Cherry picks", however this is really not all it's cracked up to be. Some of the more ethical Wholesalers will place a limit on how many fish or corals can be taken of certain species. QM does not even allow some e-tailers in anymore, even if you are a B&M with a website to sell online. The largest problem is that you do get some e-tailers out there that DO drop ship from Wholesalers and manufacturers 100%, and they drive out a lot of people from the hobby. This happens with B&M's that don't give accurate advice or just sell to the customer, knowing full well that the people will be back a month later to buy more and more, because the set up that was sold to them was inadequate. We hear it all of the time, from people face to face and over the phone. When we hear this, we always point them in the right direction, a BOOK and tell them to read it, so they can filter out the B.S. that someone might tell them, and see what's logical with the rest.
:mrgreen:
Makin'Waves..
You bring up more excellent points, both about etail and about B&M.
Case in point - a few years ago I had a conversation with another LFS owner not too far from me (he bought his store around the same time I opened mine, and he's since sold it). I'd heard from mutual customers that they'd been "allowed" to make bad choices, out of ignorance.
The other LFS owner's philosophy was this:
If the customer asks, he'll give (in his opinion which sometimes differed from mine) his honest answer as to whether the choice was appropriate or not. However if the customer just asked him to "bag it up" - he did. No questions asked. While perhaps a better short-term sales strategy, in the long run it cost him a lot in consumer confidence - especially during the "Nemo" craze when a bunch of people ended up with 6-gallon Eclipse systems complete with Nemo and Dory. His thinking was that it wasn't his responsibility to educate the consumer if they didn't care to educate themselves. He was in business to sell, period.
Perhaps he's right in a way - it's the end-user's responsibility to make an informed purchase - but for me anyway, I have a real problem causing unnessary suffering for the livestock, while effectively ripping off the customer.
That's what makes a B&M succeed or fail in the long run - quality and service - and this applied long before etail existed. Etail has changed some of the dynamics, but the fundamentals of a good B&M are still the same.
Jenn
You bring up more excellent points, both about etail and about B&M.
Case in point - a few years ago I had a conversation with another LFS owner not too far from me (he bought his store around the same time I opened mine, and he's since sold it). I'd heard from mutual customers that they'd been "allowed" to make bad choices, out of ignorance.
The other LFS owner's philosophy was this:
If the customer asks, he'll give (in his opinion which sometimes differed from mine) his honest answer as to whether the choice was appropriate or not. However if the customer just asked him to "bag it up" - he did. No questions asked. While perhaps a better short-term sales strategy, in the long run it cost him a lot in consumer confidence - especially during the "Nemo" craze when a bunch of people ended up with 6-gallon Eclipse systems complete with Nemo and Dory. His thinking was that it wasn't his responsibility to educate the consumer if they didn't care to educate themselves. He was in business to sell, period.
Perhaps he's right in a way - it's the end-user's responsibility to make an informed purchase - but for me anyway, I have a real problem causing unnessary suffering for the livestock, while effectively ripping off the customer.
That's what makes a B&M succeed or fail in the long run - quality and service - and this applied long before etail existed. Etail has changed some of the dynamics, but the fundamentals of a good B&M are still the same.
Jenn
Another great point, Mitch... and here's another example...
There's a store somewhere not too far from me... or there was... or there is...he opened up about 18 months ago. Sold a ton of cheapo systems... 75 g marine systems with Fluval canisters - the big spenders bought 2 canisters. Protein skimmer? What's that? I went into his store once to drop off something that our mutual dry goods vendor forgot to leave off with him and saw no reef-ready tanks, just a lot of canister filters and Sea Clones (OK so he knows what a skimmer is...). I think he sold a few freshies but his focus was marine and reef (!!)
The same store advised people to use copper-based meds in their reef tanks, they had a stockpile of Greenex (Aquatronics went out of business at least 2 years ago to the best of my knowledge), and were selling WAY substandard systems and dishing out extremely questionable advice. I can't tell you how many of his "messes" I cleaned up - and it's a hard sell to convince a customer to upgrade to "real" equipment after they've spent hundreds or thousands on junk. The trail of dead fishes speaks for itself - but some just opted to give up after being rooked.
That store closed in December, when his electricity was shut off, and vendor scuttlebutt had indicated that closure was iminent, some time shortly before that. It has recently re-opened with a new owner but the same guy is running it - talk about leaving the mouse in charge of the cheese. I figure it will be another 6-12 months before the new owner either runs out of money or gets tired of letting it slip through his fingers. Meanwhile this store is back to selling canisters for marine setups - I had a guy come in last week having just purchased his new 75 with Fluval 404..2 of 'em. HE started doing his own research after the fact and wondered if he'd made a bad choice?
It's a hard-sell to show a customer the high-end setups on my floor even at a cost price (in the hopes of realizing a profit on the residual sales after the sytem is purchased) when the customer shopping around is assured he can do it "right" for a lot less. He's cranking out 75s with Fluvals for marine systems at an alarming rate, while I've got a similar reef ready setup with a decent sump and skimmer for hundreds more.
IMO this type of store is very bad for the hobby, and especially bad for B&Ms.
Go on any hobbyist forum and one can find posts about how the LFS screwed them, cheated them, sold them substandard stuff etc. I do believe that in many cases, the would-be hobbyist had better options laid out for them but took the cheapest route. We don't offer up half-assed systems. If they aren't willing to do it right, we recommend freshwater (where that Fluval would be just fine) or not at all. The creatures we keep are living beings and deserve the best care we can give them, and we don't budge from that philosophy. However, as long as there's a LFS out there who will cut corners just to make the sale, this will go on.
Sort of deviated from the topic at hand... but running with the flow of the thread.
Jenn
There's a store somewhere not too far from me... or there was... or there is...he opened up about 18 months ago. Sold a ton of cheapo systems... 75 g marine systems with Fluval canisters - the big spenders bought 2 canisters. Protein skimmer? What's that? I went into his store once to drop off something that our mutual dry goods vendor forgot to leave off with him and saw no reef-ready tanks, just a lot of canister filters and Sea Clones (OK so he knows what a skimmer is...). I think he sold a few freshies but his focus was marine and reef (!!)
The same store advised people to use copper-based meds in their reef tanks, they had a stockpile of Greenex (Aquatronics went out of business at least 2 years ago to the best of my knowledge), and were selling WAY substandard systems and dishing out extremely questionable advice. I can't tell you how many of his "messes" I cleaned up - and it's a hard sell to convince a customer to upgrade to "real" equipment after they've spent hundreds or thousands on junk. The trail of dead fishes speaks for itself - but some just opted to give up after being rooked.
That store closed in December, when his electricity was shut off, and vendor scuttlebutt had indicated that closure was iminent, some time shortly before that. It has recently re-opened with a new owner but the same guy is running it - talk about leaving the mouse in charge of the cheese. I figure it will be another 6-12 months before the new owner either runs out of money or gets tired of letting it slip through his fingers. Meanwhile this store is back to selling canisters for marine setups - I had a guy come in last week having just purchased his new 75 with Fluval 404..2 of 'em. HE started doing his own research after the fact and wondered if he'd made a bad choice?
It's a hard-sell to show a customer the high-end setups on my floor even at a cost price (in the hopes of realizing a profit on the residual sales after the sytem is purchased) when the customer shopping around is assured he can do it "right" for a lot less. He's cranking out 75s with Fluvals for marine systems at an alarming rate, while I've got a similar reef ready setup with a decent sump and skimmer for hundreds more.
IMO this type of store is very bad for the hobby, and especially bad for B&Ms.
Go on any hobbyist forum and one can find posts about how the LFS screwed them, cheated them, sold them substandard stuff etc. I do believe that in many cases, the would-be hobbyist had better options laid out for them but took the cheapest route. We don't offer up half-assed systems. If they aren't willing to do it right, we recommend freshwater (where that Fluval would be just fine) or not at all. The creatures we keep are living beings and deserve the best care we can give them, and we don't budge from that philosophy. However, as long as there's a LFS out there who will cut corners just to make the sale, this will go on.
Sort of deviated from the topic at hand... but running with the flow of the thread.
Jenn
To be fair I decided to ask Dr. XXX about the dropshipping over on his forum on RC. I just want a simple yes or no.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthrea ... did=807642
He hasn't had to time to respond yet.
Mitch
PS
I don't think it is fair to single out QM for doing something that is going on other places as well, so I do feel the need to learn the truth.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthrea ... did=807642
He hasn't had to time to respond yet.
Mitch
PS
I don't think it is fair to single out QM for doing something that is going on other places as well, so I do feel the need to learn the truth.
Dizzy that is a yes just check their website.
But I will say this, Dr Mac says this is what he is doing. I would actually skake his hand and tell him I have the uptmost respect for him and his company. Maybe he can set the standad for the industry.
STR
But I will say this, Dr Mac says this is what he is doing. I would actually skake his hand and tell him I have the uptmost respect for him and his company. Maybe he can set the standad for the industry.
STR
Look STR I'm not trying to drag him into anything. Race called me yesterday and explained that QM is not the only one providing dropshipping services. I thought his answer here was misleading or dodging. (DX) I feel bad about singling out QM if it is common practice in LA to dropship for etailers. It may not be as big an advantage as it seems as there are some additional costs involved in shipping the smaller packages. I just feel that if it is going to be offered to some then it should be offered to all, if they can meet the terms of the arrangment. How can we ever hope to put together an umbrella group for this trade unless we treat everyone fairly? I think it is good that this is finially all coming out. I appreciate the frankness and honesty of Race and Kevin in their call to me. Perhaps others should talk to them as well. They ain't afraid to answer questions if you ask in a polite manner.
Mitch
Mitch
Well I just went to his web site and saw this:
"We offer a great selection of reef fishes. These are housed at our Los Angeles location and shipped direct to you lessening the stress of handling resulting in the healthiest fish in the industry. Each and every fish is carefully inspected before shipping and packed and shipped using only the finest methods. We are proud of the variety and quality of the fish we sell.
Dr. XXX has carefully selected the fish we offer for sale, we do not offer every fish available because some have a very poor record of survivability in captivity. Dr. Mac feels strongly that these inappropriate fish should not be sold or collected and so we do not offer them for sale. You can be assured that every fish we offer for sale will do well in your aquarium given normal proper tank conditions and diet.
Browse through our selection and call us today if we can be of any assistance in your selection. Please read our Shipping page for policy regarding orders shipped from our Los Angeles Facility. Special orders are also welcome."
"We offer a great selection of reef fishes. These are housed at our Los Angeles location and shipped direct to you lessening the stress of handling resulting in the healthiest fish in the industry. Each and every fish is carefully inspected before shipping and packed and shipped using only the finest methods. We are proud of the variety and quality of the fish we sell.
Dr. XXX has carefully selected the fish we offer for sale, we do not offer every fish available because some have a very poor record of survivability in captivity. Dr. Mac feels strongly that these inappropriate fish should not be sold or collected and so we do not offer them for sale. You can be assured that every fish we offer for sale will do well in your aquarium given normal proper tank conditions and diet.
Browse through our selection and call us today if we can be of any assistance in your selection. Please read our Shipping page for policy regarding orders shipped from our Los Angeles Facility. Special orders are also welcome."
I have told you already by my previous post that I do not wish to be dragged into this debate but you seem to not hear me and now take your crusade over to RC. Please leave my name out, I thought it was policy in this forum to not mention specific company names--if that is still the case please I ask that the admins go back and delete my name from this thread. I have no dog in this fight and how I conduct my business is my business not yours nor this forum's. If you have a specific question for me then call me but do not single me out on a public forum. I am perfectly upfront with my customers about my practices and I have no desire to explain to you how I conduct my business. If you feel this topic is open for public debate please then tell the world who your specific suppliers are, how much do you buy from them, how many cherries do you get, how often do you order and how much do you buy, and then tell the world how much you charge for those items, etc. Get the point? Where does it stop, and are these things anyone else's business? I think not, so do not try to extract them from me here either by asking who I get my supply from or how I conduct my business, it is none of your business.
I have a B & M store as well as selling online. I buy from the same wholesalers as everyone else and pay the same prices and get the same mix of some cherries and mostly standard stuff, the same issues with DOAs and DAAs and no credits just like everyone else. I am currently funding coral propagation projects in the islands and have a greenhouse to grow corals also. I am doing things to differentiate my business from the others and suggest you all do the same instead of trying to lump me with those doing nothing to promote captive propagation nor sustainability. I help many hobbysists to be more educated and better hobbyists just as any good B & M store does, I probably speak with and email over a hundred a week with many problems related to their hobby that never actually buy from me, just as many of the other B & M stores I get the calls and emails all the time from folks that bought something elsewhere and need help and I gladly help them. So, how am I any different from you all that feel I am somehow to be lumped with these other companies? I am doing nothing that you all can't do yourselves. I am a one-man show just as you all are in most instances. I have no special powers over anyone else in this business and struggle to make a living each day and do what is right by the customer everyday just as you all do. Again, I have not asked to be dragged into this and wish to be left alone to do my work as I think you all should get back to.
So, please do not lump me with the others in your list. I have no issues with them nor anyone else on this forum, you all conduct your business as you see fit and I will do the same and I wish everyone the best, but again please delete my name from your campaign.
Dizzy, you seem to have some specific campaign now to drag me into this and I am asking you to stop now please.
I have a B & M store as well as selling online. I buy from the same wholesalers as everyone else and pay the same prices and get the same mix of some cherries and mostly standard stuff, the same issues with DOAs and DAAs and no credits just like everyone else. I am currently funding coral propagation projects in the islands and have a greenhouse to grow corals also. I am doing things to differentiate my business from the others and suggest you all do the same instead of trying to lump me with those doing nothing to promote captive propagation nor sustainability. I help many hobbysists to be more educated and better hobbyists just as any good B & M store does, I probably speak with and email over a hundred a week with many problems related to their hobby that never actually buy from me, just as many of the other B & M stores I get the calls and emails all the time from folks that bought something elsewhere and need help and I gladly help them. So, how am I any different from you all that feel I am somehow to be lumped with these other companies? I am doing nothing that you all can't do yourselves. I am a one-man show just as you all are in most instances. I have no special powers over anyone else in this business and struggle to make a living each day and do what is right by the customer everyday just as you all do. Again, I have not asked to be dragged into this and wish to be left alone to do my work as I think you all should get back to.
So, please do not lump me with the others in your list. I have no issues with them nor anyone else on this forum, you all conduct your business as you see fit and I will do the same and I wish everyone the best, but again please delete my name from your campaign.
Dizzy, you seem to have some specific campaign now to drag me into this and I am asking you to stop now please.
Ok then I'll go back and take your name out of the posts. I was sitting here minding my own business when someone called me and told me that other wholesalers dropship for some too. I'd have to say that yes it certainly does happen. Sorry to bother you.
Mitch
Mitch
SavetheReefs":q38e7gyh said:Len are you kidding me?
No, I am not, and these types of comments are unnecessary, inflamatory, and rude.
Here's my issue with your accusations: it seems to me a lot of it is based on conjecture. If you are unable to provide data to support your "facts and figures," I recommend you don't state them as truths.
I apologize for initially misconstruing your post. The reason I questioned your accuracy was based on this comment:
"The bottom line is, no employee of foster and smith sees, or packs the livestock he is getting drop shipped."
I somehow didn't register the word "drop" which significantly alters the meaning of your statement. I know the shipments out of Wisconsion are inspected by employees (fyi: it's not just an aquaculture facility). I don't know the arrangement liveaquaria has with the dropshippers or if they have their own personel at these facilities. It appears you are familiar with their operations, so perhaps you can describe how they function and how you arrived at the figures you did.
I'm not defending DrF&S or any other business or organization. I am, however, encouraging people to post accurate information that you can provide proof for. Generalizations, assumptions, and misinformation does a disservice to us all.
Dr. Mac":3tlw3q19 said:I have told you already by my previous post that I do not wish to be dragged into this debate but you seem to not hear me and now take your crusade over to RC. Please leave my name out, I thought it was policy in this forum to not mention specific company names--if that is still the case please I ask that the admins go back and delete my name from this thread. I have no dog in this fight and how I conduct my business is my business not yours nor this forum's. If you have a specific question for me then call me but do not single me out on a public forum. I am perfectly upfront with my customers about my practices and I have no desire to explain to you how I conduct my business. If you feel this topic is open for public debate please then tell the world who your specific suppliers are, how much do you buy from them, how many cherries do you get, how often do you order and how much do you buy, and then tell the world how much you charge for those items, etc. Get the point? Where does it stop, and are these things anyone else's business? I think not, so do not try to extract them from me here either by asking who I get my supply from or how I conduct my business, it is none of your business.
Hi Dr. Mac,
Just letting you know the "no names" policy is no longer instituted. It was a policy defined by one of our previous moderators. It is no longer being enforced because the policy prevented some meaningful discussion from taking place (I trust you can imagine the stagnation of free press if people were not allowed to name names). However, I have recently encouraged people to to name parties only if it is absolutely necessary and relevant to the discussion (http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=83943). I agree with you that in many instances, the naming of parties is unnecessary and detracts from the purpose of the discussion.
JustPhish":aaulb37i said:Thanks Makin Waves, that's been on my mind a lot lately. Just like not ALL B&M places are bad, neither are all etail places. There are many more etail places that house their own livestock inventory than drop ship from the wholesalers. I can't stand seeing people like AMDA bod members and the like saying that all etailer drop ship, none have overhead, blah blah blah. That's ridiculous.
Second, save the reefs, the more you post the more I am finding it hard to take you seriously. A bit of advice, calm down a little bit. I know you have an axe to grind, but keep it mellow! When you start ranting like a fanatic I put as much stock in what you're saying as I do a die hard PETA member.
Finally, isn't there something that can be done about this false advertising? It doesn't take a doctorate to figure out that the claims F&S are making are a little far fetched. No one would stand for this type of behavior if some other large, well known retail operation (read department, grocery stores, etc etc) were making blatanly false claims. Surely there must be some sort of fair marketing laws that are being breached somewhere no?
it's called 'the federal trade commision ' :wink:
they are also responsible for investigate claims made by/on labelling/ingredients, etc
With all due respect for Dr. Mac and the way he does business…
I used to sell quite a bit of coral, fish and live rock to Dr. Mac. Mac was an A+ customer of mine. Within a couple of orders we went from give me this and that to I will take so many boxes this week. The only thing I did drop-ship for him was some of his live rock, generally when a client of his needed a large supply or when it was advertised as such, either way the customer knew what they were getting.
If Mac is drop shipping from the west coast, chances are he either employs someone out here to collect his fish, or he has a rep he can trust. Either way whoever is picking the fish for him knows what his standards are, and as good a customer as Mac is would know better than to send a poor specimen out.
I am not here to grandstand for him and not much of what I offer really makes him any different when you look at the face value of this post. The one thing I will emphasize on is that Mac is there more for the Hobbyist than for himself. Any one of his customers will tell you that, and any one of his suppliers clearly knows it. No matter how big your marketing budget is, you cannot buy that kind of loyalty to the hobby.
Ron
I used to sell quite a bit of coral, fish and live rock to Dr. Mac. Mac was an A+ customer of mine. Within a couple of orders we went from give me this and that to I will take so many boxes this week. The only thing I did drop-ship for him was some of his live rock, generally when a client of his needed a large supply or when it was advertised as such, either way the customer knew what they were getting.
If Mac is drop shipping from the west coast, chances are he either employs someone out here to collect his fish, or he has a rep he can trust. Either way whoever is picking the fish for him knows what his standards are, and as good a customer as Mac is would know better than to send a poor specimen out.
I am not here to grandstand for him and not much of what I offer really makes him any different when you look at the face value of this post. The one thing I will emphasize on is that Mac is there more for the Hobbyist than for himself. Any one of his customers will tell you that, and any one of his suppliers clearly knows it. No matter how big your marketing budget is, you cannot buy that kind of loyalty to the hobby.
Ron
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
Sponsor Reefs
We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.
Click here to sponsor $10:
