bluelifeusa.com

[bookfish]

Please feel free to question anything and everything. Also feel free to request pictures, clarifications etc...
However, please leave the sarcasm at the door.
You won't use something? Fine.
Give us your reasons and let it go at that.
TIA-Jim

 

[Anonymous]

Hmmm. I would use the aiptasia product. I get tons of corals. They come with hundreds of pests. In fact today I found many aoptasia in the bags used to wrap the corals so who knows how many were hiding in nooks.

So now I am a "lackluster aquarist"? Stuff comes in with flat worms. People pass red bugs to each other and need products to eliminate them. Suddenly they're all "lackluster aquarists"?

I wish I could be blessed with such skills that somehow any pest that may have been hitchhiking will suddenly vaporize into thin air between the time it's removed from the bag and placed into the tank. What a wonderful world. I suppose I am going to have to suffer with my lackluster skills until that bolt of lightning strikes.

 

[Koralbeauty]

:roll:

Aiptasia. If you are buying hundreds of corals and they are coming in with that many glass anemones, check your supplier. If you are importing and corals are coming from the wild like this, i would be shocked and have to ask you were you are finding aiptasia infested corals, cuz i have never seen such a thing(and i have seen my fair share). Either way, you can scrub them off. You can also use other methods as well such as fish that consume them(put rock and fish in seperate aquarium and see what happens, same for peppermint shrimps, which also readily reproduce, adding a natural form of zooplankton in the aquarium)yes it kills them sometimes, but not nearly all the time, and in fact makes the problem worse because tons of little ones pop up in the exact place of where the dead one was. I have used calcium hydroxide too many times, and it doesnt work.(therefore, i dont go selling it like its a miracle)

Flatworms. Have you ever tried freshwater dipping your corals. Some people say that it is hard on the coral. My suggestion: hyposaline dip! Flatworms are not tolerant of sg of 1.015 which is hardly freshwater. I have dipped very sensitive corals with no problems what so ever.
If this still doesnt work for you, once again i bring up biological. Numerous reef safe fish feed heavily on flatworms such as the black leopard wrasse, and many members of the Halichoeres genera. This one is easy....but why bother, just nuke your whole system with a medication that only affects flatworms??!? sounds risky and there is no evidence that it is not causing damage to other aquarium inhabinants....nor will there ever be evidence, since we are in the wild west(aquarium trade) and anything goes....surely you can name off some pretty worthless products. Right?

Red Bugs. Quarantine. There are several products you can use externally to dip these corals. In my opinion treating the aquarium is not a option. Quarantine first, otherwise take the corals out and dip them. You cant compare doing this to dumping slime out in your aquarium. Red bugs are a parasite that should be stopped at the point of collection. Unfortunately it caught just about everyone with their pants down, and now people are trying to pick up the pieces. I dont think people should treat their whole aquarium, but using it as a proactive dip is totally diff. Cyano is just from poor water conditions. Thats it.

So, if you are using chemical dips, or biological measures to control pest or parasites thats one thing. When you start recommending a short term fix to your customers(that is not based on sound husbandry), you are really doing a disservice, and from my standpoint i think you should sure up your level of skill a bit....it has nothing to do with being blessed :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

:roll:

bah forget it. Edited. Not worth the time to shoot holes. I see the tune changed now anyway.

 

[JennM]

With all due respect to Bookfish...

Koralbeauty, I think I read your previous post in a different way than Bookfish did. Perhaps he "heard" it with a different tone than I did.

I happen to agree with much of what you've said - natural controls are much more reasonable and have less side-effects than chemical "miracles".

I always recommend fixing the source of the problem first, rather than throwing medicine or chemicals at it, and I employ the same techniques that you do.

Having said that though, there are still people who *prefer* to throw a chemical fix at it, rather than fix the underlying problem. Or people ignore a problem for a long time, before they finally resolve to fix it, and by then, some additional "help" may be in order.

Having said that, when someone asks my advice with such a problem, I usually offer up "natural" solutions - improved husbandry, natural predators, improved water quality - whatever is appropriate to fix the problem at hand. But I do get requests for stuff like Chemi-Clean for Cyanobacter (but I've found that dosing Magnesium works much better, without side effects), or Joe's Juice for Aiptasia.

I tried Flatworm eXit myself a few years ago for a severe red planaria infestation - and lost 7 fish. Now I recommend freshwater dips for affected corals. For the record, I don't blame the chemical - it worked "as advertised"... it was the toxins from the deceased flatworms that wiped out my fish - I followed directions to the letter, but my infestation was more than severe... but I digress. Freshwater dips work instantly and rather thoroughly, and I've also learned that planarian populations will wax and wane on their own... I don't carry Flatworm eXit anymore - from what I've heard some of the planaria aren't bothered by it anymore anyway.

I've never used Chemi Clean - frankly I'm afraid of it. I had a number of customers asking for it, and my attempts to help them holistically were moot, so I carry the stuff, and when people buy it I give them a big heads up on the importance of doing a water change per instructions - and I also tell them that without fixing the source of the problem, they'll become dependant on the stuff. That's about all I can do.

I understand and respect your philosophy of fixing problems at the source - and I live by it too... but in this retail game, there will always be people looking for a quick fix, or at least a hand in getting ahead of a problem, and IMO some of these products do a good job in that. For me, to not carry such products would be shooting myself in the foot - if I suggest better husbandry etc., but they *still* want the chemical fix, they're going to go elsewhere to buy it. So, I'll carry it, I'll still suggest a *better* way to deal with it, or at least how to manage the problem better when the accute issue is dealt with.

Unfortunately in this culture of instant gratification, it's hard to impart wisdom like that at times because everybody wants it now.

I wish I had $1 for every time I've said, "Nothing good happens fast in an aquarium."

Jenn

 

[bookfish]

I agree w/ Koralbeauty and Jenn and I also promote natural pest control. I don't disagree with what has been said, only the tone used to say it.-Jim

 

[JennM]

I know that, Bookfish - and what I said, I said with sincere respect.

I think I read the post from a "passionate" point of view, and I acknowledge that you may have interpreted it differently.

That's one of the pitfalls of the written word - sometimes meanings can be lost or misconstrued.

I don't presume to speak for how Koralbeauty intended his/her post - but rather, I just responded to "the facts" and not the emotion behind it.

Cheers,
Jenn

 

[bookfish]

NP Jenn, I was reacting to the combination of posts about lackluster aquarists , the comments about the products in question, and then the request for a pic of the SDC tank followed by "i am sure it is amazing with your expert products and top notch husbandry" which I took as sarcasm. I'm certainly not trying to control the conversation, only trying to keep it from becoming too over the top. -Jim

 

[JennM]

Heh yeah I can see how it could have been perceived as sarcastic.

However, from my side of the counter, there are way too many "lacklustre aquarists" out there - most of whom don't frequent educational forums.

I just spent 10 minutes explaining to a customer that his nitrates are climbing because he doesn't water change properly - he has a shallow sand bed and doesn't vacuum it... and naturally he's looking for a "quick fix". I told him to vacuum all the poop out of his substrate and do more consistent water changes, and stop over-feeding.

If I had $1 for every such conversation I have like that :::insert problem and solution here::: I'd retire!




Jenn

 

[sdcfish]

Koral Beauty wrote:

Eric(SDC)

could i trouble you for a picture of your aquarium in your office? i am sure it is amazing with your expert products and top notch husbandry

KB,

My office tank is pretty blah actually. We have been abusing the hell out of it by constantly testing new products. Just a 24 gallon nano with some live rock, sand, 12 or so asst inverts, mushrooms, shrimps, crabs, a few clams, some starfish etc.

You would love to see my home tank though....it rocks! Live plant tank on steroids!

Best regards

Eric

PS and in the case that KB was being truly sarcastic....then all I have to say about that is

 

[JeremyR]

Chemi clean actually works ok, and I've used it. It doesn't nuke tanks by any means. That doesn't mean one should rely on it, but for your customers that ask for it and use it.. they aren't going to wake up to dead corals or anything.

The po4 binder scares me more.. I would like to see some questions answered re: what happens when snails, conchs, cukes, etc eat detritus that has the bound po4 in it... if it is released back into solution after passing through the gut, then it's pretty useless. If it's not, then say so. If you haven't thought of that process, then shame on you.

 

[sdcfish]

Jeremy,

I kinda get your point about the detritus being eaten and not bound up when dosing the phosphate control.

I would imagine that eventually, all the phosphate that is being removed will catch up and no longer be in the aquarium at high levels. This phosphate control is an ongoing treatment, as phosphates build up naturally in the aquarium.....and you can only lower your phosphates with this product as recommended 1ppm per day.

So, how can you argue this isn't a great product? I am open to comments, but from what we have seen and tested, it does exactly what it says it does.....and that is lower your phosphates without any negative effects on your livestock.

Best regards.....

 

[PeterIMA]

Can anyone provide advice on whether products being advertised to remove nitrates from saltwater actually work?

Peter Rubec

 

[dizzy]

Peter which specific products are you referring to? Stuff like de-nitrifcation filters do appear to work. Pouring magic potions into your tank may not be as effective.

 

[PeterIMA]

There is a resin that is claimed to remove nitrates from seawater being advertised in aquarium magazines lately. I can't recall the name of the product.

Peter

 

[Alembic14]

There is a resin that is claimed to remove nitrates from seawater being advertised in aquarium magazines lately. I can't recall the name of the product.

Peter

The store I work at carries Pura Nitratelock, although I haven't tried it.

http://www.magnavore.com/media.html

I have tried the "magic potion" M3's AZ-NO3 and it really does work.

http://archimedes.galilei.com/raiar/azpamp.html

 

[dizzy]

Check the ingredients. Avoid products that rely too heavily on items from the following list.


Witches Brew Macbeth
Round about the cauldron go;
In the poison'd entrails throw.
Toad, that under cold stone
Days and nights has thirty-one.
Swelter'd venom sleeping got,
Boil thou first in the charmed pot.

ALL.

Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn, and cauldron bubble.

Second Witch.


Fillet of a fenny snake,
In the cauldron boil and bake;
Eye of newt and toe of frog,
Wool of bat and tongue of dog,
Adder's fork and blind-worm's sting,
Lizard's leg and owlet's wing,
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.

ALL.

Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and cauldron bubble.

Third Witch.


Scale of dragon, tooth of wolf,
Witches' mummy, maw and gulf
Of the ravin'd salt-sea shark,
Root of hemlock digg'd i' the dark,
Liver of blaspheming Jew,
Gall of goat, and slips of yew
Silver'd in the moon's eclipse,
Nose of Turk and Tartar's lips,
Finger of birth-strangled babe
Ditch-deliver'd by a drab,
Make the gruel thick and slab:
Add thereto a tiger's chaudron,
For the ingredients of our cauldron.

ALL.


Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and cauldron bubble.

Second Witch.
Cool it with a baboon's blood,
Then the charm is firm and good.

Enter HECATE to the other three Witches

HECATE
O well done! I commend your pains;
And every one shall share i' the gains;
And now about the cauldron sing,
Live elves and fairies in a ring,
Enchanting all that you put in.

 

[PeterIMA]

OK, So the witches have not tried these products. Would the mortals reading this forum please provide feedback on any of the following products?

1) AZ-NO3 (AZ-Nitrate

2) Purigen from SeaChem

3) PURA NitrateLock (Page 86 of FAMA January 2007 sold by Magnavore)

4) any other resins or polymers that are advertised to remove nitrates from seawater

 

[dizzy]

Peter,
As a scientist you should be relying less on heresay and more on hands-on. You should be the one trying these products and then reporting back here on how well they work. You could become the Ralf Nadar of the reef hobby. I think some of us long term retailers/hobbyists have become somewhat skeptical of all the products that have been marketed in the past several years. We need someone like you to assume the role of myth-buster. I hope you accept the challenge.
Mitch

 

[PeterIMA]

Mitch, Good comment. I do intend to try using some of them, but don't plan to do a scientific study (long-term evaluation using replication). Some of this stuff may actually work, since there are patents filed for resins that remove nitrate.

I think it should still be possible to get some feedback either on this forum or as a PM from those who have tried the product(s).

Peter