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PeterIMA

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Subj: Re: [Coral-List] Needed: Description of White Plagues One and Two
Date: 7/4/2006 11:53:04 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: eborneman
To: mekving
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Dear Melissa and Etichscuba

All you can say in the field is that you have observed corals with
signs of a white plague-like condition or a white syndrome. The
etiology is not well enough understood when then signs of disease are
simply a loss of tissue, generally from the margins or base of a
colony. To even call it WPII would require that you collect samples
and determine if there are Aurantimonas bacteria associated with the
lesions.

I have slide upon slide of coral diseases that look like white
plague, type I, II, III, white syndromes, white band types i and II,
white pox, white this, white that. Basically the coral tissue is
dying, is bleached and dying, or has been eaten. There are many
possible reasons and the same or similar gross or field-observable
signs occur in the Atlantic, the Indo-Pacific, the Red Sea. The
etiology is barely known (and with questionable data across time and
space) for any of them, and now we know that even carbon can cause
similar signs (Kuntz et al 2005).

Etichscuba said he saw the exact same thing. Snails, ciliates,
flatwoms, Hermodice, nudibranchs, parrotfish, bacteria, viruses,
sedimentation, abrasion, allelopathy, fish poop, environmental
stressors - all can cause the same or "too close to call" signs of
white disease in the field. A lot of field people still can't tell
the difference between a partially bleached coral, fish bites and
disease.

Before everyone who sees tissue loss on a coral begins calling it
white plague, the diagnostics must confirm the gross signs of
disease. Its like having a headache or a fever or diarrhea...same
symptoms in humans of many potential disease agents or maybe no
disease agent at all.

There are characteristic diseases - like black band disease. White
syndromes are not so clear cut and I wouldn't even say that the
complete etiology of black band is written in stone although it is
understood much better. There is even a different disease in the Indo-
Pacific that can look a lot like black band disease but isn't and is
caused by a totally different agent, Halofolliculina corallasia.

I think its important to keep this in mind when making field
observations and assigning disease names to lesions.

__________________________
Eric Borneman
Dept. of Biology and Biochemistry
University of Houston




On Jul 3, 2006, at 11:19 AM, Melissa Keyes wrote:

> Hello, Listers,
>
> I would greatly appreciate a description of the visual
> differences between the two White Plagues.
>
> Also, do they differ in rate of growth, as well as rate of
> colonization of algae on the freshly dead coral?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Melissa Keyes
>
> St Croix, USVI
 

PeterIMA

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Subj: Re: [Coral-List] Needed: Description of White Plagues One and Two
Date: 7/4/2006 11:56:43 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: reed
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Melissa,
If you don't have access to the original scientific papers for currently characterized coral diseases, you can obtain progression rates, known etiologies, and excellent photo samples from NOAA's CHAMP site (Coral Health and Monitoring Program), information current to 2004, which defines white plaque, white band, white pox Types I & II, etc..

Good luck,
Keven Reed
----- Original Message -----
From: Melissa Key
To: Coral
Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 12:19 PM
Subject: [Coral-List] Needed: Description of White Plagues One and Two


Hello, Listers,

I would greatly appreciate a description of the visual differences between the two White Plagues.

Also, do they differ in rate of growth, as well as rate of colonization of algae on the freshly dead coral?

Cheers,

M Keyes

St Croix, USVI
 

PeterIMA

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ate: 7/5/2006 8:04:22 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: goreau
To: Coral-List
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>> Subject: What to call white plague-like phenomena and how to tell
>> what bugs are really in it?
>>
>> Dear colleagues,
>>
>> This is just a quick note in response to the thread below before
>> leaving in the morning and being out of reach in the field again.
>> In the last few years I see these white plague-like phenomena
>> greatly increasing everyplace i go, Caribbean, Indian Ocean,
>> Pacific, Southeast Asia, and more and more mixed with clear
>> indications of other diseases, such as black band or white band.
>> There seems to be a real question as to whether Aurantimonas is
>> the sole cause, as opposed to a secondary opportunist or member of
>> a consortium, and so it seems far too restrictive to limit the
>> term to only those that have been shown to have Aurantimonas in
>> them. The term white plague is originally a field descriptive term
>> with good meaning, while Aurantimoniasis should be restricted to
>> those cases where the microbe has been proven present. Field
>> researchers need a field description that we can use without
>> having the facilities and the money for microbiology, and it seems
>> to me that white syndrome is far too vague, and anyway is a junior
>> synonym. Eric is right that many people are misdiagnosing this.
>> I'm just back from reefs that had the white plague like syndrome,
>> often coupled with other coral diseases, yellow band, bleaching,
>> crown of thorns, and drupella, making it often hard to be sure
>> which was which. However there were many cases that could not be
>> attributed to any other factors but WP-like on careful
>> examination. It is clear that this won't be resolved by even a
>> coordinated reporting network, as the question of what people are
>> really seeing, versus what they assume they are seeing will
>> bedevil the interpretation just like the low level reef monitoring
>> programs reporting from all over the world, whose "data" no
>> serious coral disease researcher trusts. What is needed is
>> funding for a good lab that can construct the 16S rRNA libraries
>> of samples that anyone can send so we can see what is really in
>> them. It is certain we will find much more complex microbial
>> communities involved rather than single putative pathogens, and
>> only lots of data will start to reveal their patterns. Without
>> this analytical capability, these diseases will continue to spread
>> far faster than we can agree on what to call them, and these
>> nomenclature discussions will be more fiddling while Rome burns.
>> Like so much else in this field.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Tom
>>
>> Thomas J. Goreau, PhD
>> President
>> Global Coral Reef Alliance
 
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Anonymous

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:lol:

I was wondering how long it was going to take for someone to chime in on that when I saw the first post come across..

I'm suprised though that Eric didn't make any mention of the many RTN episodes that a lot of hobbyists experienced in the Shimek salt debacle.



... - Or am I ignorantly lumping RTN in with this "plague" and that they're nothing alike at all?
 
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Anonymous

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Just join the CORAL list serve, then Peter won't have to reprint what we saw last week :lol:
 
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Anonymous

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Yep, I've been on for a while actually. - I meant I wondered (back then) how long it was going to take to get that sort of reply on the list. ;)

So am I right? - Does RTN (Rapid Tissue Necrosis) fit right in there or no? - Seems to me it does.
 

bobimport

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I was listing to the radio the other day as a climatologist spoke on global warming. It went something like this. The ocean absorbs something like 30% of the CO2 that is put into the air. Combined with seawater it forms carbonic acid that has lowered the PH of saltwater causing malformation of coral skeletons leading to coral bleaching. Any thoughts on this by some of the smart people here? Does this make sense?

Bob
 

Kalkbreath

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Here ya go
This is one of my pet peves.............
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showt ... enumber=12
There is no data which shows the PH has fallen.
The data shows that parts of the Pacific are lower in pH then say the Atlantic.
Which by the way has not only a higher pH , but the pH in the Atlantic has actualy increased over the years.
the study is here;
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/data/309/5744/2204/DC1/1
until more pH data are
gathered, this pH distribution should be considered as a first approximation and that simply
illustrates the main patterns of pH heterogeneity in the tropics. Amongst other expected features,
the tongue of low pH surface waters in the eastern equatorial Pacific, related to upwelling and
vertical mixing of deep waters, is well represented in this map. Identical patterns of pH were
obtained using alternative global alkalinities derived from World Ocean Atlas 2001 annual
surface salinity (19) with alkalinity/salinity relationships for the whole Pacific Ocean (17) or for
more restricted areas such as the Coral Sea. All pH data were computed by means of the
CO2SYS program (20) using the K1 and K2 carbonic acid dissociation constants from Mehrbach
et al. (21), with values refitted for the seawater scale (22), and the bisulfate
Yet the media and press have run with this study , blind to the fact that it disproves the idea that man made C02 is having an effect .
 

PeterIMA

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Kalk, You seem to have become the expert on global warming on Reef Central. I agree that it is a very important topic. Carbon dioxide concentrations have been increasing in the atmosphere and it is getting warmer. My question is: Is this related to white band disease? Is there scientific evidence to "prove" that coral reefs are threatened by carbon dioxide emissions and the resulting global warming? Otherwise, your posts are interesting but off topic.

Peter Rubec
 

Kalkbreath

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Peter find me a study which collected water samples which measured C02 levels in Atlantic seawater over the psat twenty years. (Not just pH ).

I also feel that its the fact that its been a decade since a nice cold snap dipped water temps in the carrib to the point that baterium like White Plague are supressed.
Any reports of white plague in the Keys shortly after 1983 or 1989?(African dust was still flying them)
Also take a look at the cultures inside sewage treatment plants up and down the west coast of Florida.
I bet you will find the same white band foe has set up camp inside the public sewage treatment plants. Keeping warm even in the winter, off floridian fecal flushes.
Follow those three leeds........then you will find your smoking gun.
 

PeterIMA

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Kalk, I assume that since you did not answer the question, that you don't know the answer. Neither do I. But, I will try find out some of the answers and get back to you and others reading RDO.

Peter
 
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Anonymous

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heh just go the sump and read galleon's and dr.reef's posts on many of the global warming threads there

:P
 

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