Proposal to list the Banggai cardinal in Appendix II CITES
- Thread starter Mike King
- Start date
Banggaiis Cardinalfish population can be depleted . That has happened with many species in the Ph and Ind. Grounds where fish were abundant are now empty... there is no one fish left. Fish collectors travel further away to collect valuable fish...once the resource is exhausted they move to another place. Regulations to manage the resource doesn't exist in those countries.
As you know the case of Banggai Cardinalfish is particular, is not found every where.
As you know the case of Banggai Cardinalfish is particular, is not found every where.
The paper I read estimated the total population at about 1,700,000 baggai cardinals. So, harvesting 700,000 to 900,000 per year is about 50% annual mortality (A). This clearly is unsustainable.
As far as Gresham's comment about invoices I partly disagree. If they have to harvest 800,000 fish a year to ensure about 200,000 for export then putting a quota at the export level does nothing to reduce the wasteful harvest. There needs to be measures implemented to compensate for the needless mortality.
Quotas need to be implemented with the collectors. The collectors need to be trained in better collection techniques (nets), better handling, and better transport procedures. Then they can collect 200,000 to 250,000 per year without depleting the overall population. Harvest rates per year should not exceed 20% of the total population numbers.
Peter
As far as Gresham's comment about invoices I partly disagree. If they have to harvest 800,000 fish a year to ensure about 200,000 for export then putting a quota at the export level does nothing to reduce the wasteful harvest. There needs to be measures implemented to compensate for the needless mortality.
Quotas need to be implemented with the collectors. The collectors need to be trained in better collection techniques (nets), better handling, and better transport procedures. Then they can collect 200,000 to 250,000 per year without depleting the overall population. Harvest rates per year should not exceed 20% of the total population numbers.
Peter
One thing that no one has mentioned regarding this endemic fish is the impact that collection for the MO trade has had upon it's geographic range. For better or for worse, there are now several satellite populations of Bangaii cardinals throughout Indonesia, which I'm sure are the result of roving collectors either intentionally or accidentally releasing these fish. I have personally seen a small, but clearly reproducing population in Secret Bay, Gilimanuk in Bali which is a popular dive spot for macrophotographers, and is also the ferry terminal for trucks and cars from Java, and home to the "fish quarantine" facility in Bali. Not sure what they do or how that all works (Might be for freshwater fish for all I know)...
I also wouldn't rule out the idea of intentional introduction by dive guides as a novel species for divers to photograph. I've gotten some great shots myself
I've also heard that there is a healthy population of Bangaii's in the Lembeh Strait (correct me if this is within their natural range...) which is adjacent to Manado where there must be some suppliers. Lembeh is also a Macrophotographer's hot spot, so again, I wouldn't rule out the intentional introduction for photography's sake. Although the close proximity to Manado makes accidental introduction more likely in my mind.
If these two populations are the result of accidental introduction, I would expect other lesser known populations all along the routes traveled by the roving collectors. These two populations are known because they are major dive sites.
So this raises a rather sticky issue. If the Banggai is threatened by collection, the population has been able to expand it's range for the same reasons. But this also raises the issue of exotic introduction, etc, even if we are talking about introductions within a relatively close geographic area (Bangaii to Lembeh).
Although the population at Secret bay is probably quite new, I don't see any negative impacts of the fish on the surrounding ecosystem. They only live in the Diadema urchin spines here, and aren't particularly common. I'll see maybe 10-25 per dive, but I've seen small ones, and "pregnant" males, so they are reproducing. Due to it's popularity as a dive site, I think that collection is very restricted or non-existent here, so the population can be expected to grow. As an invasive species, I think the threat level is quite low, although we'd need a big chunk of grant money and years of study to say this with any sort of scientific certainty, now wouldn't we ;-) ?
From what I've heard, the population in Lembeh is larger and more widespread (Secret Bay is very small, but I'm not sure if, or how far they might range outside the bay). I have not seen them around Menjangan island or Sumber Kima/Pejerakan where there are several suppliers who buy the Bangaiis from the roving collectors. You'd think that with all the MO activity in the area that some would have escaped, or an entrepreneurial collector might just "throw some back" in hopes of letting mother nature take over and collect them once they reached a breeding population. Maybe they have already done this, and no white folk have noticed...
In fact I observed one supplier in Sumber Kima who had probably 300 (supplied from a roving collector) or so in his "tanks" (made DIY from Styrofoam fish boxes w/ PVC drain pipes) , and he was regularly feeding them with live mysis shrimp (collected locally from shrimp ponds). The Bangaiis were already trained to this feeding pattern, as they would all come up to the surface with their mouths gaping, ready to eat, if you came over to observe them in the tank. You could have fooled me into thinking that they were tank-raised, they were already so well habituated. They were all fat and healthy looking, and all of them reacted to the food, no stragglers. This is just one supplier, so I can't speak for how others treat their Bangaiis.
Anyway, I just wanted to chime in with some information that hasn't been covered yet. It seems that more research needs to be done, especially if they haven't taken into account the size of these new populations. I do agree that this species needs to be properly managed. But you can only properly manage a species with proper data and information before you get started.
Is there data on the trade and popularity of these fish over the past 12 years? Has their popularity plateaued yet?
Out of curiousity, does anyone have first hand information on how Bangaii's are collected? It seems that they would be easy enough to collect without cyanide (since they hide in Urchin spines and/or sea anemones), but I have not a clue.
Cheers,
Colin
I also wouldn't rule out the idea of intentional introduction by dive guides as a novel species for divers to photograph. I've gotten some great shots myself
I've also heard that there is a healthy population of Bangaii's in the Lembeh Strait (correct me if this is within their natural range...) which is adjacent to Manado where there must be some suppliers. Lembeh is also a Macrophotographer's hot spot, so again, I wouldn't rule out the intentional introduction for photography's sake. Although the close proximity to Manado makes accidental introduction more likely in my mind.
If these two populations are the result of accidental introduction, I would expect other lesser known populations all along the routes traveled by the roving collectors. These two populations are known because they are major dive sites.
So this raises a rather sticky issue. If the Banggai is threatened by collection, the population has been able to expand it's range for the same reasons. But this also raises the issue of exotic introduction, etc, even if we are talking about introductions within a relatively close geographic area (Bangaii to Lembeh).
Although the population at Secret bay is probably quite new, I don't see any negative impacts of the fish on the surrounding ecosystem. They only live in the Diadema urchin spines here, and aren't particularly common. I'll see maybe 10-25 per dive, but I've seen small ones, and "pregnant" males, so they are reproducing. Due to it's popularity as a dive site, I think that collection is very restricted or non-existent here, so the population can be expected to grow. As an invasive species, I think the threat level is quite low, although we'd need a big chunk of grant money and years of study to say this with any sort of scientific certainty, now wouldn't we ;-) ?
From what I've heard, the population in Lembeh is larger and more widespread (Secret Bay is very small, but I'm not sure if, or how far they might range outside the bay). I have not seen them around Menjangan island or Sumber Kima/Pejerakan where there are several suppliers who buy the Bangaiis from the roving collectors. You'd think that with all the MO activity in the area that some would have escaped, or an entrepreneurial collector might just "throw some back" in hopes of letting mother nature take over and collect them once they reached a breeding population. Maybe they have already done this, and no white folk have noticed...
In fact I observed one supplier in Sumber Kima who had probably 300 (supplied from a roving collector) or so in his "tanks" (made DIY from Styrofoam fish boxes w/ PVC drain pipes) , and he was regularly feeding them with live mysis shrimp (collected locally from shrimp ponds). The Bangaiis were already trained to this feeding pattern, as they would all come up to the surface with their mouths gaping, ready to eat, if you came over to observe them in the tank. You could have fooled me into thinking that they were tank-raised, they were already so well habituated. They were all fat and healthy looking, and all of them reacted to the food, no stragglers. This is just one supplier, so I can't speak for how others treat their Bangaiis.
Anyway, I just wanted to chime in with some information that hasn't been covered yet. It seems that more research needs to be done, especially if they haven't taken into account the size of these new populations. I do agree that this species needs to be properly managed. But you can only properly manage a species with proper data and information before you get started.
Is there data on the trade and popularity of these fish over the past 12 years? Has their popularity plateaued yet?
Out of curiousity, does anyone have first hand information on how Bangaii's are collected? It seems that they would be easy enough to collect without cyanide (since they hide in Urchin spines and/or sea anemones), but I have not a clue.
Cheers,
Colin
Great post Colin....I am very pleased to read your post and have you participate here....very cool!
I agree with pretty much what you are saying...and I also would have to believe that these cardinals are not being collected with cyanide as it is easy enough to net them.
I also agree that more studies need to be done.
We are trying to do our part by not allowing our price to bottom out like some other competitors near us. I would say we are 40% higher than at least One wholesaler I know, but very possibly competitive with the majority. There's always one or more low ballers out there....but sometimes we just have to ignore those low prices and keep the price fair for the market, and in this specific case, the environment.
I look forward to coming up with some kind of solution here.
Best regards
I agree with pretty much what you are saying...and I also would have to believe that these cardinals are not being collected with cyanide as it is easy enough to net them.
I also agree that more studies need to be done.
We are trying to do our part by not allowing our price to bottom out like some other competitors near us. I would say we are 40% higher than at least One wholesaler I know, but very possibly competitive with the majority. There's always one or more low ballers out there....but sometimes we just have to ignore those low prices and keep the price fair for the market, and in this specific case, the environment.
I look forward to coming up with some kind of solution here.
Best regards
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