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Anonymous

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California makes up ~3/5 of the west coast. It's the size of many East Coast states combined. Los Angeles is a 6 1/2 hour drive one way, no LFS in this area makes that drive (currently). We do have a few local wholesalers, but, the brunt of the rare corals they (LFS) get, are from LA. They order them just like you. Wait for them to be shipped, just like you. They have to sell common items, just like you. They get stuck with fill, just like you. Where's the difference, other then flight time?
 
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Anonymous

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There's no way I am going to believe that someone in CA is at the same disadvantage as someone in New England. Not only is it easier to find someone else to do all the picking for you when you're so close but you're less likely going to get screwed over when you are close enough to do something about it. There's ONE wholesaler in this state. One. LA is not the only home of wholesalers out there and as a matter of fact I get my best stuff from those that aren't in LA.

If I had the same assortment of places that those out west had to choose from and it was only 6.5 hours one way to get there I would hire someone to do it in an instant. I can't even imagine the luxury! I often waste more than 12 hours a day in re routed packages, delayed flights. Now I could have someone go down to what?...half a dozen or more places? Pick out healthy, nice things for me and drive back and begin acclimating that night? Hours after the stuff came out of the tanks vs 24 hours or more? Not exposed to rough handling from God knows how many different pairs of hands, no temperature extremes? The savings in losses, sick animals, sub par pieces, etc alone would negate the dudes pay and gas for the one trip.

Those who don't take advantage of that and are complaining are fools.
 
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Anonymous

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I thought it should go without saying, but just in case. That one wholesaler is pitiful. Absolutely pitiful. I can't see any of their marine stuff being worth anything unless you snapped it up the second it breached the doors.
 

Piero

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in the LPS forum of RC.....this jendub site. This site seems to get a lot of acans. Why would high-demand species such as acans showing up on some small etail site with no shopping cart? This seller sells acan frags for muny hundreds of dollars online daily. Why aren't the established retailors with big orders getting this livestock? It just seems very odd for an industry with establishged pecking orders.

Frags.org listing:
http://www.frags.org/memberfragslist.php?id=4043
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Piero":1k0shq2j said:
in the LPS forum of RC.....this www.jendub.com site. This site seems to get a lot of acans. Why are these acans showing up on some small etail site with no shopping cart? This seller sells acan frags for muny hundreds of dollars online daily. I've seen up to $800 per frag! Why aren't the established retailors with big orders getting this livestock? I'm guessing everyone is willing to pay the price...so why are small newcomer chop shops getting priority access? It just seems very odd for an industry with establishged pecking orders, so I'm wondering what's going on.

Frags.org listing:
http://www.frags.org/memberfragslist.php?id=4043

Boutique vs general store. The boutique takes the time to develop an expensive exclusive smaller market. The general store is more interested in volume. I believe that established retailers with big orders are getting this livestock but its going straight to special customers like those that own boutiques.
 

M_Phobos

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Piero...as has been said before...money talks! We see all sorts of "choice" pieces (both corals AND rare/exotic fish) offered on wholesaler's lists each week, but as a B&M shop, we simply can't afford to bring a lot of them in due to limited exposure (we only serve our LOCAL clientele) and the inherent risk involved (whose head rolls when you lose that $250 wholesale Purple Rhinopias?). So I sit and stare at Micromussas and Acans on the wholesale list at $100+ per each week without ever having any real ability to get them into a shop that's been up and running for 20 years. (Trust me when I say it's sometimes hard enough to move a nicely colored Acro with a retail of $90...let alone a tiny Acan or Micro with a pricetag of $300) Meanwhile, the neophyte etailer with zero overhead and a client base as large in the entire "intarweb" can afford to drop a bit of extra cash on the "choice" stuff. (They don't have 10 employees to pay at the end of the month....or the lease on their commercial space) And don't think that the retailers that do a lot of business with certain wholesalers don't get some good pieces along with the "fill". But just because we order $2000/week doesn't mean they should just toss in a free Micro or Acan for playing...we have to order and pay just like everyone else. That'd be like a good customer coming in and expecting you to toss in your most prized show coral just because they drop a bit of cash in your store.

Just some thoughts,
Austin
 

Piero

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idunno,
Maybe it's too steep for some stores obviously, but I suspect there's no shortage of online and offline shops willing to spend that much...so I'm guessing there's another reason. Price point just does not explain this.
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JustPhish":27sefq90 said:
There's no way I am going to believe that someone in CA is at the same disadvantage as someone in New England. Not only is it easier to find someone else to do all the picking for you when you're so close but you're less likely going to get screwed over when you are close enough to do something about it. There's ONE wholesaler in this state. One. LA is not the only home of wholesalers out there and as a matter of fact I get my best stuff from those that aren't in LA.

If I had the same assortment of places that those out west had to choose from and it was only 6.5 hours one way to get there I would hire someone to do it in an instant. I can't even imagine the luxury! I often waste more than 12 hours a day in re routed packages, delayed flights. Now I could have someone go down to what?...half a dozen or more places? Pick out healthy, nice things for me and drive back and begin acclimating that night? Hours after the stuff came out of the tanks vs 24 hours or more? Not exposed to rough handling from God knows how many different pairs of hands, no temperature extremes? The savings in losses, sick animals, sub par pieces, etc alone would negate the dudes pay and gas for the one trip.

Those who don't take advantage of that and are complaining are fools.

Most are either in LA, or south of it. There's one 30 minutes north of LA, but most are in or near LA. FWIW< people call the area LA, even though it might not be in LA proper. Heck, there's some south of LA, but that's another 1/2 south.

The only way to do LA right for northern CA people, is to leave at midnight, arrive at openning, do the walk, drive home, acclimate, and get out of the store at midnight the next night (24 hour mission). Missing one nights sleep, and going to work the next day, is VERY hard. Finding a jobber, building a relationship with him/her, is just as hard for them, as you. Many local stores can't afford to send someone. Margins are tight, and employees are hard to come by (especially ones you'd trust to send to LA to pick out stuff). CA happens to be one of the most expsensive places to live and to have a retail store in. The SF Bay Area happens to be on the top of the CA list of the most expensive place to live, and to do business in. Now, I can tell you I know nothing about NE, but there's NO way it could compair to the cost of doing business in CA, nor the living wage required to live.

How is it any easier for them to do something about a problem shipment? The phone cares not where you are, nor do the poeple taking the calls ;)
 
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The cost of living here is also very high. Electricity is just about to spike to the highest in the nation with a 50% increase coming down the pipe in a few days. On top of an already 27% increase a few months ago. Cheap gas is more than $2.50 per gallon. Diesel is even more, almost $3.

LOL, sorry but with the life I have lived and the schedule I currently keep, no one is going to get an ounce of sympathy from me about how hard a 24 mission is. You do what you have to do and that's all there is to it. If you don't want to, that's fine, but no bitching about it either. Suck it up and drive on. Besides, just because the employee went to get livestock doesn't mean he's tied to the store for the rest of the day no matter what time the livestock is done acclimating.

I really don't see how after you factor in shipping costs, time...the most expensive thing of all, unhealthy product, sub par product, losses, etc that a store in CA can't afford to have an employee whos only job is to gather livestock for the store. I think if anything they can't afford not to have one.
 

M_Phobos

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A lot are willing to spend it....once in a blue moon. It's price point AND volume/turnover. We have a beautiful "key" shaped reef display in our store (you should head down sometime and check us out, Piero...you're in this neck of the woods...lol), and in it sits a beautiful turquoise Acanthastrea echinata. Priced at $105. And there it has sat for 4 months since I had it brought in. Along with a good deal of our other "spendy" corals. (Large Plerogyras, Scolymias, Trachyphyllias, Tridacnid clams....) Maybe you're right and maybe it's just our market (but seeing as how we have regular customers who truck in from as far away as Bend, Coos Bay, and Portland..I don't know about that), but no one seems willing to drop more than $50-$60 for any particular single piece of coral in our store.

And I don't think it's just THIS market. I don't recall seeing many spendy corals moving back where I'm from originally either (Upstate NY). For every one "serious" reefer in any given store's client base you've got 10 or 15 "bread and butter" types who wouldn't know an Acan from an Acro and aren't inclined/don't have the setup to keep either. Whereas etailers cater to some of the most savvy reefers (the online version...like most of us...can stay up-to-date on the latest trends/technologies..and at that point, most of them shop around online anyway, because they know their local B&M LFS can't compete with etailer pricing), most B&M shops have to cater to the lowest common denominator of sorts. I don't think it's a matter of us not getting them because someone else is "stealing" them...I think it's more a matter of us not getting them because we simply can't move them. How do I justify a $300 piece of inventory sitting around for a year on the bottom line?

Later,
Austin
 
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LOL I know exactly what you're saying Austin. I'm telling you though. Make up a freaking ridiculous name and write it in over the price of that coral and bag it up by Friday.
 

M_Phobos

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LOL...JP, I can see it now.

"Navajo Dream" or some such nonsense. Like the supposed "Green People Eaters" we got in last week...ugly "kinda green" large zoanthids...oy.

The problem is...I don't think any of my regulars even have a clue the internet exists...so the trendy naming thing won't even work...lol. Oh well...at least I get to appreciate the pretty little guy every day. ;)

Later,
Austin
 

M_Phobos

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Okay, Okay...right next to the "Serengeti's Pride" (regular striped) T. squamosa and across from the "Lawrence Welk's Fantasy" green Plerogyra...LOL.

Later,
Austin
 
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JustPhish":dtj43pgu said:
The cost of living here is also very high. Electricity is just about to spike to the highest in the nation with a 50% increase coming down the pipe in a few days. On top of an already 27% increase a few months ago. Cheap gas is more than $2.50 per gallon. Diesel is even more, almost $3.

Everything you just talked about is more expensive in CA and has been for at least 2 years, if not more. :D

LOL, sorry but with the life I have lived and the schedule I currently keep, no one is going to get an ounce of sympathy from me about how hard a 24 mission is. You do what you have to do and that's all there is to it. If you don't want to, that's fine, but no bitching about it either. Suck it up and drive on. Besides, just because the employee went to get livestock doesn't mean he's tied to the store for the rest of the day no matter what time the livestock is done acclimating.

I don't think anyone is complaining - just explaining whey the LA run isn't as easy as some seem to think it should be.

I really don't see how after you factor in shipping costs, time...the most expensive thing of all, unhealthy product, sub par product, losses, etc that a store in CA can't afford to have an employee whos only job is to gather livestock for the store. I think if anything they can't afford not to have one.

Find them one that can do it consistently and affordably and I think they would thank you. The problem is finding someone who not only has the time to make the trip once or twice a week for what LFS can afford to pay, who also knows what they are looking at and for, who also will continue to do it long term in order to develop and continue business relationships. Finding a decent employee to simply help customers is difficult, finding someone to do the LA run is near impossible - which is why so few stores in the SF Bay Area do it.
One guy did it for a while. He had a small shop and when he was doing the run he had problems finding someone decent to run the shop, and on those days it was very difficult to actually buy something. He couldn't afford to hire someone 'good', and eventually his schedule caught up with him and he closed the shop.
Its expensive, its hard and at the end of the day, you are still buying animals that might die and might not sell. Most LFS around here have enough problems without throwing money away to try to get the bestest most trendy corals in LA. The LFS customers in SFBA aren't that much different from those in the rest of the country and just because a store has great corals doesn't mean they are going to be selling them.

:D
 
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JustPhish":1umsqe30 said:
I can't stand it either but unfortunately it doesn't look like it will change anytime soon.

I once has a purple acanthastrea for MONTHS. All I was asking for it was what I needed, something like $40 for it. Wasn't sold to me as anything special so I didn't pay anything special and it was huge. Almost softball size. When I changed my site, I put it back up for $105 and slapped a name on it. Sold the very next day.

Heh. Exactly the perfect illustration of the phenomenon. I agree with you, I don't think it will change anytime soon, either. Too many of my fellow hobbyists are all too ready to buy into hype.

I recently had an sps that had the same color scheme as what is now dubbed "pokerstar" (wtf do these people come up with the names).

Tell me about it. Ever seen Radioactive Reverse Gorilla Nipples? I'm not kidding.

I notice wholesalers are getting in on it too lately.

Yeah. I wish I could blame them, but I can't. I blame the consumer for buying into it.
 
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Lefty, I mean Righty, I mean Thales, wrote:
Find them one that can do it consistently and affordably and I think they would thank you. The problem is finding someone who not only has the time to make the trip once or twice a week for what LFS can afford to pay, who also knows what they are looking at and for, who also will continue to do it long term in order to develop and continue business relationships.

I am seriously, seriously kicking myself for not thinking of this and making it into a career all those years I lived in Los Angeles. Jobbing for a bunch of stores across the country would have beat the hell out of what I was doing for my day job then, that's for sure.
 
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Thales":1kgua2pp said:
Everything you just talked about is more expensive in CA and has been for at least 2 years, if not more. :D

It's all relative. Those were just a couple of items.

I don't think anyone is complaining - just explaining whey the LA run isn't as easy as some seem to think it should be.

I wasn't saying that anyone here is complaining. I meant in general.

Find them one that can do it consistently and affordably and I think they would thank you. The problem is finding someone who not only has the time to make the trip once or twice a week for what LFS can afford to pay, who also knows what they are looking at and for, who also will continue to do it long term in order to develop and continue business relationships. Finding a decent employee to simply help customers is difficult, finding someone to do the LA run is near impossible - which is why so few stores in the SF Bay Area do it.
One guy did it for a while. He had a small shop and when he was doing the run he had problems finding someone decent to run the shop, and on those days it was very difficult to actually buy something. He couldn't afford to hire someone 'good', and eventually his schedule caught up with him and he closed the shop.
Its expensive, its hard and at the end of the day, you are still buying animals that might die and might not sell. Most LFS around here have enough problems without throwing money away to try to get the bestest most trendy corals in LA. The LFS customers in SFBA aren't that much different from those in the rest of the country and just because a store has great corals doesn't mean they are going to be selling them.

:D

Come on now. You guys are making it sound like just being alive is CA is an incredible feat in itself. Why is it near impossible to find someone to do the work? From what I recall when I lived out in CA for a short time there was no shortage of workers. Skilled, maybe, but finding someone honest to help customers that can easily learn with some simple OJT is really that hard? The reason I had a hard time finding employees was because of my own issues. Not because of a lack of physically capable bodies. For the one store you said closed down, I bet there are hundreds of successful stores out in CA.

I'm also not talking just about SF Bay area. Like I said before I'm not talking about anyone in particular. I am talking about CA. I refuse to believe that the playing field between CA and New England is level. No one has shown me anything yet that says it is.

The trendiest corals is not what is important to me. Like I've always said to my wholesalers, I want what I pay for. I don't expect special treatment, I don't expect boxes upon boxes full of gems. I want healthy animals. If I was picking out things myself at the wholesalers health is what is most important. I used to go to a wholesaler in a neighboring state until they started selling retail as well. I took more bread and butter items by far than prized corals. Mushrooms, leathers, yellow polyps, whatever. If it was healthy, I bought it. Occasionally I would take a nice SPS or two but for the most part it was the regular stuff that I left with.

Yes, things may still die. They might not sell. But I have a much better chance of not having as many deaths if I or someone in my stead was picking out my stuff and I was able to tank it within hours of being bagged rather than a day or more. Not to mention I would never select a fish with it's skeleton showing through the skin. I wouldn't pick things with missing fins. Diseased items. Corals with receeding tissue. Etc. No one can dispute that.
 
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cjdevito":1jn9c3r7 said:
Yeah. I wish I could blame them, but I can't. I blame the consumer for buying into it.

Oh no I don't blame them at all. Everyone is entitled to earn as much as they can. I will never fault anyone for trying to make an honest living.

I know my beliefs hold my business back. I'm fortunate enough though that I still have other avenues of income that allow me the luxury to be the way I am.
 

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