Retail Pecking Order

[Anonymous]

Totally agree on all points.

BTW, welcome to RDO, and IBTH

I hope you stick around and post more in this forum, you seem to have a very good grasp on this stuff It's also nice to see a word like morally pop up, gives me hope

 

[Piero]

hrm..., think i got carried away with the blacklist suggestion,lol. derrr. I want to clarify too that using that site as an example was purely arbitrary. Not pointin' any fingers, just an example.

One thing I'd anticipate though, as sustainable product becomes a higher priority, is a conflict between the need for retailers to maintain a level of secrecy regarding livestock sources, and the need for the trade and consumers to know exactly where their livestock is coming from in order to verify its origin and sustainability.

How might retail businesses maintain some of the competitive advantage of having secret suppliers, while still completely divulging the origins of livestock and the chain of custody for their product in a way that is verifiable and cannot be exploited easily?
_________________
Mexican Forum

 

[Anonymous]

I think it's a self destructing market at best. The morphs get traded and traded and traded, thus lowerring the price. Only the slow growers will maintain there high value. Micros grow like weeds IME, so eventually, thru fragging and trading, the market will self implode At least thats what I think will happen (or wish).

I don't think there's any real way for a vendor to prove where it got it's stock, with out alerting others to their supplier. How do you mark a wild colony as to it's origin? Progigated you can implant a plastic ID card, but a wild piece? It would be easy to copy/counterfit it in that case.

 

[dizzy]

I don't think there's any real way for a vendor to prove where it got it's stock, with out alerting others to their supplier. How do you mark a wild colony as to it's origin? Progigated you can implant a plastic ID card, but a wild piece? It would be easy to copy/counterfit it in that case.

The proper authorities are the ones that need to do the investigating if they have reason to be suspicious. Perhaps now that they are taking the Lacey Act more seriously some prosecution will follow. We can only hope they go after the bad apples and not the industry as a whole. If the big online players want this stuff I doubt it will be possible to keep people like Chris and Eric in the dark as to the suppliers.
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

When's the last time you heard of a US F & W Agent going to Indo to investigate rumors of Asian sourced corals being smuggled into that country, and being reshipped around the world?

As for Eric and Chris, that's not whom I was talking about keeping in the dark (dealer level, not wholesale level). I'm sure Eric, Chris and all the other LA boys know where to get this stuff. SI ships micros legally, they all know exactly who and how to get SI livestock. Tonga ships them legally, they all know the 5 players there. Don't yah remember the story ERic told of the red acan he sold to a dealer (valued at 5K) and was promptly stolen from that store?

 

[dizzy]

Gresham if F&W or some other gov agency suspect a company is selling corals brought into the country in violation of the Lacey Act, they can sit up a small sting operation. Have one shipped to them, and then go and make the shipper prove they were obtained legally. They don't have to go to Indo.

Also now that F&S has their own chop shop you would think they would be wanting this stuff too. I'm pretty sure they can handle the asking price if that's what their buyers want.
Mitch

 

[sdcfish]

As for Eric and Chris, that's not whom I was talking about keeping in the dark (dealer level, not wholesale level). I'm sure Eric, Chris and all the other LA boys know where to get this stuff. SI ships micros legally, they all know exactly who and how to get SI livestock. Tonga ships them legally, they all know the 5 players there. Don't yah remember the story ERic told of the red acan he sold to a dealer (valued at 5K) and was promptly stolen from that store?

It's pretty tough to deal with illegal stuff if you are in the mainstream of this industry...and at some point, everyone doing business within must make the decision whether they are going to deal with legitimate suppliers that will send you what you can legally import.

Having said that, I find myself struggling with two suppliers that can't seem to understand the new regulations set by Fish and Wildlife.

Interesting enough....we can no longer import Wellsophyllia as such...they must now be listed as Trachyphyllia (go figure). Also, we can't import dendrophyllia as such...must be listed as Tubastrea even though I have submitted dendro's to US Fish and Wildlife for Id, and they came back with just a decision not to confiscate them, but not to continue to import under such name.

Back to topic...."pecking order" which has been a very hot topic for us for many years. The "rare" stuff MUST be spread out to as many customers as possible. Sure, you could sell 10 pcs of something rare to one customer, but then you are really screwing over 9 other customers that you could have sent just one to. We try to live by these rules and make sure everyone is getting a piece of the best pie! The sales reps here call it "playing nice"!

Regards

 

[Anonymous]

Seen the $1000 Tongan micros they offer on LA It's a no brainer, or course they know :lol:

I guess you don't understand what I'm saying, so I will try to make it simpler.

Coral is shipped to Indo from Asian country.

Indo reships with <read> CITES documents.

Those go around the world, including the US.

They enter with what all US agencies would agree is a legal document, and they would have no other way to know otherwise, as it's the other countries problem. Now, if this was a ivory smuggling case, I bet they'd investigate pretty deeply, but you can tell the source of ivory with tests, unlike micros. They can't go after foriegn shippers, only the receiver stateside. They can ban the shipper, but they have no legal authority over the non US operation. It's not like corals have much of a paper trail once they get into the us. No one is required to fill out forms to obtain coral within the US, nor is anyone required to keep records of where they got their domestic coral. If there was such a system in place, they could do what you say.


AS for going after online vendors, how does US F & W S know they didn't frag it from anothers colony. They could have bought it from another hobbyist. The proof you say exists, in fact, doesn't, nor could it be used against them. If US F & W S (federal) conducted such a sting, they'd have no way to actually prove their case. Once a coral gets into the US, it's virtually impossiable for them to prove it was gotten in an illegal fashion. You can't prove a source of a micro by looking at it, nor could you tell if it was from a CITES coral or not. It's unforunatly the truth. You can tell that some of the current trendy corals aren't listed on any CITES quotas though, like the dendros and "eyes of the ocean"/ what not.

You didn't asnwer the question about rememeberring Eric selling that Acan during the peak of the Acan craze That was the most expensive one I have heard of to date.

 

[Anonymous]

As for Eric and Chris, that's not whom I was talking about keeping in the dark (dealer level, not wholesale level). I'm sure Eric, Chris and all the other LA boys know where to get this stuff. SI ships micros legally, they all know exactly who and how to get SI livestock. Tonga ships them legally, they all know the 5 players there. Don't yah remember the story ERic told of the red acan he sold to a dealer (valued at 5K) and was promptly stolen from that store?

It's pretty tough to deal with illegal stuff if you are in the mainstream of this industry...and at some point, everyone doing business within must make the decision whether they are going to deal with legitimate suppliers that will send you what you can legally import.

Having said that, I find myself struggling with two suppliers that can't seem to understand the new regulations set by Fish and Wildlife.

Interesting enough....we can no longer import Wellsophyllia as such...they must now be listed as Trachyphyllia (go figure). Also, we can't import dendrophyllia as such...must be listed as Tubastrea even though I have submitted dendro's to US Fish and Wildlife for Id, and they came back with just a decision not to confiscate them, but not to continue to import under such name.

Back to topic...."pecking order" which has been a very hot topic for us for many years. The "rare" stuff MUST be spread out to as many customers as possible. Sure, you could sell 10 pcs of something rare to one customer, but then you are really screwing over 9 other customers that you could have sent just one to. We try to live by these rules and make sure everyone is getting a piece of the best pie! The sales reps here call it "playing nice"!

Regards

Point of that quote Eric is that there are mainsteam dealers that do infact get the items Mitch et all have suggested you don't sell, legally. Dendros are a prefect example.

 

[dizzy]

I thought Eric was BSing about the price. I don't know any retailers that could afford it, or resell it if they could. Things must be a lot better in other parts of the country.

 

[Anonymous]

That's odd you though he was bs'ing, he posted a link to the newspaper article

 

[dizzy]

Coral is shipped to Indo from Asian country.

Indo reships with <read> CITES documents.

Those go around the world, including the US.

They enter with what all US agencies would agree is a legal document, and they would have no other way to know otherwise, as it's the other countries problem.

I just hope the USCRTF isn't reading these threads any longer.
Mitch

 

[dizzy]

That's odd you though he was bs'ing, he posted a link to the newspaper article

Maybe I'm getting the stories mixed up.

 

[Anonymous]

Yodastoe, I am not singling you out nor do I fault you. I'm strictly curious. I saw where you posted before with some detail and then said that you should stop cause you didn't want to name names or point fingers. I can't find it now so it must have been edited. I know it was there I just didn't have the time to comment before.

But if you know what's going on why don't you blow the whistle?

Like I said, just curious why people would turn the other cheek if they know. Nothing more.

 

[Yodastoe]

JustPhish,

You are correct. There was more to that message. I was trying to say in the closing of the message that I am not pointing fingers or naming names. I was worried since my response followed the previous post where some websites were named I wanted to make sure no one would think I was directing it to them. After I reread my post I decided I didn't need it and rather then make the post deeper then it needed to be I deleted it. I just wanted to comment on the topic.

I myself have a store and online business. I do know this stuff is going on but what can I really do about it. I can just control my own business espically at my level and being the last man in the chain. I know this may seems like a blow off but I really do believe it is reality. I mean really how does one blow the whistle? You'd just read all the posts above about how difficult it is to prove something.

 

[Anonymous]

Well it's difficult for me to do anything because all I have is posts on a bulletin board where rarely does anyone even sign their real name.

What can someone do? They can make a call. Not like the whistle blower needs to conduct their own full investigation all by their lonesome. If they have hard info, that's worth something. Let those who can make the decision decide what's worth persuing.

Again, I was just curious.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Asian corals being sold as Indo corals seems to help decrease the demand on wild Indo coral populations. Isnt that a good thing?
Pretend if you would that Indonesia covered a little more teritory to the north. Thats effectively what at issue. Corals from the same area, just with a different name and government.
What if coral could swim? Like tuna. Does it matter what state a tuna fish calls his home? Nobody compains that Tuna collected in Bali were born in Japan. Yet Tuna are actualy more endangered of being over collected then Acans.
Its not like there is an increase in the number of total corals being wild collected, its simply that the corals are being collected from a wider geographic region.(another good thing)

CITES is still limiting the number Acans taken from the wild to the USA.

Keep in mind that these same Asian corals are traded through out Japan and Asia unrestricted. (Just look at the asian reef sites)

I understand the sour grapes perspective and that the rules are the rules , but from an ecological stand point
It sure seems like this should be a good thing in any mind that feels corals are being over collected in Indonesia.

 

[Yodastoe]

The point is I have no hard info. I do not know specifics. I just know how it can be done and it does go on.

Being in the industry I hear stories, busts etc (all past time of course).

I know how some people get their stuff and at what lengths they go thru to get it. However, I do not know the suppliers, future shipments, or details etc.

I have no hard stats just past true stories.

Like I said I just wanted to comment on the topic on hand and hopefully provide some insight.

 

[Anonymous]

CITES is still limiting the number Acans taken from the wild to the USA.

not when they're "mistakenly" id'd and sent as favia, or stuffed 2-3 to a bag, hoping US F & W S doesn't inspect that lower layer, or closely inspect the bag itself. After all, it's pretty hard to see in a newspaperred bag that has multiple bags, and a splastic wrapper around the coral itself. Who's to say it didn't break in shipping?

I wonder how much suitcasing of corals from Asia into the US really goes on. You hear rumors about it, and see "Japanesse Acan" label on things. How many could be coming in that way? 10,20,100,500?

If the punishment was stiffer, do you think it would persuade more not to smuggle?

 

[Kalkbreath]

If it were that rampant (sneaking in corals), then you would see more of them on the market.