Doing some research on cyanide fishing, need help!!

[sdcfish]

People....

Yes....it's not necessary when you can learn to catch with nets. The species that would be harder to catch are the ones that divers would most likely use cyanide, but even then, it's just a little more training and the proper netting is all a diver would need to get those too. That is the context I made that comment in....sheesh! It would be obvious which species are most likely caught with cyanide....but then again, we still would not condone it, but would also probably not bet the farm on some species as having been 100% net caught.

Like I said before....we don't see high mortalities coming from these areas...Bali, Phillipines...etc. I am not saying there isn't a problem, but I am saying that you CAN find the right suppliers that have trained divers and supply us with excellent quality fish. I highly doubt the problem is 100% across the board like the old days, and definately on the decline thanks to the efforts that have been made over the last 10 years and more from people like Ferdinand, Steve, Mac, and so many others....

Lot's more work to be done.....and it is.

Best regards

 

[swsaltwater]

that's encouraging Eric, but I was under the impression that most cyanide mortalities occur after the fish is in customer hands, and that affects are delayed usually until after the organism has been purchased.

I would suspect this to be true, they take awhile to die from starvation from what I have seen but can't be 100% on that. I bet the hobbyist takes most the hit from cyanide deaths. I suspect that the twitching/heavy breathing on the bottom of the tank for a few hours before death was a cyanide demise. I wish I knew for sure though.

Has any research been done to easily identify signs a fish dies of cyanide poison?

 

[sdcfish]

I thought a sign of cyanide death would be when a fish appears to be perfectly healthy, eating etc....and then suddenly dies. If you do a necropsy and see liver and kidney damage....most likely due to cyanide poisoning....I am not the expert here...just my impressions and what I have heard. I am sure Peter has more to say about this topic.

I can say that I have recently read veterinary journels that say Malachite green has been used to absorb, or dilute cyanide poisoning in cattle. I found that really interesting as we have been acclimating our fish with this Malachite and have seen great results. I have wondered if part of our success was due to the Malachite, but I don't think there is proof either way to know for sure.

Either way....something to think about, and we remain with our procedure.


Still interested to know more about how this all works and hopefully we will have some real answers soon.

Best regards...

 

[Piero]

As for your comments under your signature, I would say that our industry provides a value to the coral reefs around the world. Local communities protect what they value....and our industry has shown a value to many communities where there once was no value. If you have never seen a tropical fish collecting boat tip over a boatload of fisherman over collecting groupers and draggin anchors on the corals, then you would not know how serious tropical fish collectors can be about protecting the reef that they earn their livings from.

(chuckle)that does sound like quite a sight. A great point Eric, and definitely a perspective(that of the natives) that I've tended to overlook when considering the future sustainability of the trade. Which, retrospectively, is rather naive of me.
_________________
list of bankrupt airlines

 

[sdcfish]

Piero....

It was surprising to me as well....first time I heard about them being so protective, but it runs deep with these local communities. Fishing grounds are their most important assests....and no messing around in them by strangers allowed!

Pretty much everyone passing through the village grounds get's a "stink-eye".

Regards....

 

[PeterIMA]

Eric, I am not familiar with any literature suggesting the use of malachite green as an antidote for cyanide. Perhaps, you meant methylene blue?

Peter Rubec

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Peter,

One of the reasons you guys are getting high mortality could be due to the fact that the system you are running is NOT mature enough to handle the volume of fish you are adding. I did set up some holding facilities here in Canada and found that it takes awhile for a system to get rid of all the bugs. All fish are parasites carriers which show up easy when conditions are not optimal.

Another aspect to consider is the shipping water ..where is coming from...how is filtered... what about its quality?

Those are aspects that were a big problem in the Philippines before, the shipping water was coming from places too close to Manila bay.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Peter,

If shipping water quality is not good and the holding system is not mature you'll have serious mortality problems. Net caught or juiced fish will die. Becoming an exporter/importer of marine fish is a complex business. Experience will tell you...lets hope not too many fish will die because of this new venture.

 

[sdcfish]

Cool enough....here's a recent article about the work we have been and continue to do regarding mortalities and shipping disorders.....

http://www.bendweekly.com/Science/4161.html

Work in process!

Best regards

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Eric,

Very interesting. One aspect I suggest to check is shipping water quality.The water they use to bag fish is different to the water in which the fish are hold. Fish are transfered from a body of water to another without care.

If you guys can do something to change the modus operandi of fish collectors to community level that would be a great step forward.

Fish kept in plastic bags for many days, even weeks, is the cause of physiological damage inflicted on fish after collection and as consequence high mortality to the different levels of the trade. This situation has been identified and denounced as one of the major problems facing this trade but nothing has been done to tackle it.

If you guys help collectors to set up "basic" holding facilities in their communities that would be the ideal venue to improve fish quality, meaning less mortality and more profits for the business. More important less pressure on the reefs to collect fish.

 

[PeterIMA]

Jaime, The mortality mentioned by Ferdinand does not relate to my facility in Florida. It pertains to fishes obtained from MAC-Certified suppliers in Indonesia. I have recently witnessed how the majority of Indonesian collectors hold fish in plastic bags in the villages in Bali, Indonesia. This is similar to what you observed in the Philippines. A high percentage of fishes that Ferdinand purchased from these MAC-Certified collectors died, despite being held in a flow-through export facility. I should note that fishes collected with nets and held in the same faciliry in Les Village are being exported with high survival (low DOA and almost no DAA).

Peter Rubec

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Peter,

I was talking about what's happening in Indonesia at community level. Is the same problem than in the Ph.

 

[PeterIMA]

Very interesting. One aspect I suggest to check is shipping water quality.The water they use to bag fish is different to the water in which the fish are hold. Fish are transfered from a body of water to another without care.

If you guys can do something to change the modus operandi of fish collectors to community level that would be a great step forward.

Fish kept in plastic bags for many days, even weeks, is the cause of physiological damage inflicted on fish after collection and as consequence high mortality to the different levels of the trade. This situation has been identified and denounced as one of the major problems facing this trade but nothing has been done to tackle it.

If you guys help collectors to set up "basic" holding facilities in their communities that would be the ideal venue to improve fish quality, meaning less mortality and more profits for the business. More important less pressure on the reefs to collect fish.
_________________

Jaime, Yes, your comments are correct. Collectors often hold fishes in plastic baqs on the shoreline near their homes in the villages. This is prevalent in both the Philippines and Indonesia. I took some photographs of this in Les Village last week, while I was in Bali.

Ferdinand has come up with several solutions that can be used in the villages. He also worked with some of the collectors in Les to improve their export facility. This is a larger building with aquaria, flow through system, skimmer etc. My point was that fishes coming from collectors who hold fishes in bags on shore to this export facility had high mortality. Other fishes obtained by Ferdinand from collectors he trained to use floating cages, decompression and other procedures do not experience mortality after they reach the export facility.

Ferdinand will provide more information.

Peter Rubec

 

[LuisV]

Eric,

How you are using Malachite to acclimate new arrivals? in the holding system or in the styro box of aclimatation? and how is the dosage? thanks!!

Luis V.

 

[PeterIMA]

Here is a picture I recently took in Les Village on the Island of Bali, Indonesia. It shows how many of the collectors hold marine aquarium fishes. Holding fishes in this manner stresses the fish and exposes them to high levels of ammonia.

Peter Rubec

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Peter,

Net caught fish kept under such conditions suffer serious damage. This is a problem that has been identified and denounced long time ago. It is a real ordeal fish suffer from the moment they're collected from the reef, most of the fish coming from Indonesia and Philippines are kept this way.
Peter, do you know what's the % of the trade coming from those two countries?

 

[PeterIMA]

Jaime,
Based on numbers obtained by Christina Balboa from the USFWS LEMIS database for October 2000, I would say that the Philippines provides about 54.6% and Indonesia 46.4% of the marines imported into the USA from these two countries. My guess is that the two countries provide about 80% by numbers of the overall trade in marines worldwide. Overall, she found that 7% of the world trade was marine and 93% was freshwater fishes.


Balboa, C.M. 2003. The consumption of marine ornamental fish in the United States: A description from U.S. import data. Pages 65-76, In: Marine Ornamental Species, Collection, Culture, and Conservation, Iowa State Press.

 

[Anonymous]

Jaime,
Based on numbers obtained by Christina Balboa from the USFWS LEMIS database for October 2000, I would say that the Philippines provides about 54.6% and Indonesia 46.4% of the marines imported into the USA from these two countries. My guess is that the two countries provide about 80% by numbers of the overall trade in marines worldwide. Overall, she found that 7% of the world trade was marine and 93% was freshwater fishes.


Balboa, C.M. 2003. The consumption of marine ornamental fish in the United States: A description from U.S. import data. Pages 65-76, In: Marine Ornamental Species, Collection, Culture, and Conservation, Iowa State Press.

are those percentages numbers of animals, or dollar values ?

 

[PeterIMA]

Vitz,

I believe that it is based on the numbers of animals imported to the USA.
Peter

 

[ETOPS]

Vitz,

I believe that it is based on the numbers of animals imported to the USA.
Peter

" I believe" is another way of saying, you don't know.

"You can observe a lot by watching"-Y.B.