What do you think of Race's Guarantee Initiative?

[JennM]

I understand your point, Thales - but you wouldn't believe some of the stuff we hear in retail

Of course it's your call - and it's not my post we're discussing - JMO I found it kind of some nice comic relief...albeit not terribly removed from reality.

You wouldn't believe what freshwater hobbyists come up with

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

I understand your point, Thales - but you wouldn't believe some of the stuff we hear in retail

I worked a lot of LFS retail and have heard it all! IME those people wouldn't spend any extra money on anything, and definitely not pay more for a fish and for shipping when they can get the fish at the LFS for less without shipping.

Of course it's your call - and it's not my post we're discussing - JMO I found it kind of some nice comic relief...albeit not terribly removed from reality.

I think it is in bad taste to make up quotes in a contentious discussion where similar allegations are being tossed around without support. I still have yet to see any evidence of anyone using the LA guarantee is such a crass way.

 

[JennM]

Again - points taken - however see my comments on "hobbyist math"... sometimes they really do only look at the price of the critter....

Some hobbyists will drive across town to save $2 on a bag of salt - never mind that it cost them $10 in gas to get it.

Same applies to shipping and such. That's part of the marketing.

The 6-lined Wrasse might be $22.99 at the LFS but it's "ONLY" $15.99 at F&S. Forget the fact that there's $35 shipping for next day air In fact, if one orders up to $225 worth of "cheaper" fish (cheaper than LFS) the cost can about break even with LFS.

That's the point... it's perceived to be cheaper by many. And what the heck - if Joe Hobbyist overstocks his tank by maxing out his shipping by ordering too much at once - it's all guaranteed anyway!

I *have* seen this happen to a few people. The shipping structure makes it more appealing to order more than one thing. I don't think I know anybody that orders "one" fish (unless it's something rare - in which case it is likely a more learned hobbyist - but that's not what we're being critical of here).

Order enough goodies to stock that 20g all in one fell swoop - never mind that it should be stocked one fish at a time, over time... make the most of that single shipping charge and get it all at once. If it causes a spike and crap happens, they can get more.

I've seen it many times - and the whole model that Race puts out there, promotes that. Nope it's not worth the $35 to ship *one* fish, but if you buy $224.99 worth, the charge is the same. That's a lot of damsels, firefish, clowns, and other small bread-and-butter bits and pieces all at once. Average the cost of shipping over 10 organisms and that six lined wrasse is still cheaper than the LFS.

Forget the notion that you'd have bought the wrasse on one visit, waited a week or three, then added the firefish or whatnot.

That's my biggest peeve - it encourages people to buy in bulk - and that's not necessarily good for the fish - or the hobbyist.

Jenn

 

[swsaltwater]

Jenn I pretty much use all the main wholesalers, and a few small ones I keep secret. I constantly hound to send healthy stuff but it's only helped a little. I have had issues with each and every wholesaler, big issue is the livestock is in their care for such a short time they might not see any issues when they bag it. Most are acclimated to wholesale then bagged and shipped a few days or hours later.....Have you taken a trip to LA to see how it works? I can't imaging the bagging staff is all trained on what makes a healthy fish, maybe I need to try new sales reps that pick themselves. I am also looking into finding a new Cherry picker.

Now for selling stuff I won't go as far as telling someone you can't do that because there are many ways to keep a succesfull tanks that are not accepted as mainstream today. I ran SPS in an 80 for 8 years with bio balls in the overflow(for noise), ask people today and bio balls are the devil and produce nitrates(of course they probably had amonia or nitrites as a result of too little live rock when they observed that). Well in the 8 years on my 80 I had a max of 10ppm when I got lazy with the bi montly 20 gallon water changes. Now I use dursos of course but back then bio balls were mainstream for noise control.

As for livestock I try to ensure it is compatable with the livestock they already own and advise against errors in judgement. I won't sell newbs corals or fish that they should not keep yet because every newbie wants an elegance coral, sps, powder blue tang, etc. before they are ready. Unfortunately you have to way staying in business over ethics far to often in this industry and luckily i have not had to make any wrong choices. I see my competitors selling lionfish to reef owners, wrasses that devour crabs without telling people what they will do, elegance corals sold as Aussie but are actually bali or indo deepwater(and usually die fast). Since they are still around I assume the vast majority of consumers take the lumps and keep shopping everywhere.

While I am trying to launch a web site i find i simply don't have the time to deal with it all right now, got way to much business locally as it is. But I will soon find out how the online arena is nowadays Race, but at first I plan to sell 100% in hose stock. The headaches of dropshipping are not something I need now. I see what people are getting from etailers, planaria, ich, etc.

Ethic question for race

Race do you have the wholesaler put a disclosure in the dropships to inform customers that they are shipped direct from wholesalers, and are not screened for parasites and are not QT'ed?

Does the 14 day gurantee cover the rest of their livestock that might die as a result of introducing ich, flatworms, redbugs, or AEFW's?

When I dropship and thats "if" I do, I am going to add info in the box so people know to QT them or properly dip the corals. Almost every order I get has parasites on the fish or corals from wholesalers so i can't imagine the issues going on out there. Very small percentages of reefers know all they need to to ship direct from a wholesaler. Thats what LFS are for to ensure the livestock is parasite free prior to sale. Does this happen 100% in LFS, of course not since we are human and can overlook something. At least the attempt is made.

 

[JennM]

Jenn I pretty much use all the main wholesalers, and a few small ones I keep secret. I constantly hound to send healthy stuff but it's only helped a little. I have had issues with each and every wholesaler, big issue is the livestock is in their care for such a short time they might not see any issues when they bag it. Most are acclimated to wholesale then bagged and shipped a few days or hours later.....Have you taken a trip to LA to see how it works? I can't imaging the bagging staff is all trained on what makes a healthy fish, maybe I need to try new sales reps that pick themselves. I am also looking into finding a new Cherry picker.

That's why I stay away from 'mainstream' wholesalers. Had much better success (not 'luck' but success!) with some of the smaller ones - ones that listen, care and who have salespeople that are experienced and accomplished hobbyists. I did deal with one of the big boxes once and the sales guy told me he wasn't into this stuff, he was 'just' a salesman. That was my final order at that place - he didn't know the difference between a yellow-eyed tang (aka Kole) and a yellow tang.

I haven't been to CA but I have been to a few wholesale operations so I know how it works. I have no cherry picker but I get what I consider to be cherry stuff from my supply chain when I request it. The run of the mill stuff I get from my supplier is way nicer than the stuff I've seen at the local wholesaler here

Now for selling stuff I won't go as far as telling someone you can't do that because there are many ways to keep a succesfull tanks that are not accepted as mainstream today. I ran SPS in an 80 for 8 years with bio balls in the overflow(for noise), ask people today and bio balls are the devil and produce nitrates(of course they probably had amonia or nitrites as a result of too little live rock when they observed that). Well in the 8 years on my 80 I had a max of 10ppm when I got lazy with the bi montly 20 gallon water changes. Now I use dursos of course but back then bio balls were mainstream for noise control.

I acknowledge that too - there are many ways and means to accomplish things in this hobby - water parameters tell the story - so I hear you in what you're saying. We offer our suggestions based on experiences and how *we* do it, but at the same time there are plenty of people doing their own thing - as long as their water quality is there - it works.

As for livestock I try to ensure it is compatable with the livestock they already own and advise against errors in judgement. I won't sell newbs corals or fish that they should not keep yet because every newbie wants an elegance coral, sps, powder blue tang, etc. before they are ready. Unfortunately you have to way staying in business over ethics far to often in this industry and luckily i have not had to make any wrong choices. I see my competitors selling lionfish to reef owners, wrasses that devour crabs without telling people what they will do, elegance corals sold as Aussie but are actually bali or indo deepwater(and usually die fast). Since they are still around I assume the vast majority of consumers take the lumps and keep shopping everywhere.

I hear you on that too. I don't carry 'rental items' (stuff with a poor track record in captivity). I will special order things for people who are adequately set up, informed and aware of the risks. After all, we got where we are in the hobby because of trial and error. I just don't go for selling a Mandarin to somebody with a new 10g and the like. But you're right - the places that sell these "rental items" are still going so people must just accept that this is the way it is. I don't understand that either - but it's out there every day.

While I am trying to launch a web site i find i simply don't have the time to deal with it all right now, got way to much business locally as it is. But I will soon find out how the online arena is nowadays Race, but at first I plan to sell 100% in hose stock. The headaches of dropshipping are not something I need now. I see what people are getting from etailers, planaria, ich, etc.

No matter what the source, people should quarantine - but so few do. After all, the suggestion does seem like a sales pitch for another tank, doesn't it? Some will be proactive about it but many won't quarantine until they have a disaster I hate that.

Hope Race answers your question - he doesn't want to answer any of mine

Cheers
Jenn

 

[Kalkbreath]

I think it is in bad taste to make up quotes in a contentious discussion where similar allegations are being tossed around without support. I still have yet to see any evidence of anyone using the LA guarantee is such a crass way.

You truly have never heard of hobbyists wanting to go topless despite having to continually replace their fish from them repeatedly jumping out?

or a trigger owner asking if that nemo will get along with the Clown trigger?

Few hobbyists acclimate new fish and even fewer have quarantine tanks for new arrivals.

Welcome to the real word of fish torturing.

What hobbyists do to fish should not even be legal.

When I see a customer bring in a dried out carpet fuzz covered crispy fish and ask for their money back. I am likely some what less truckling then most store operators.

a puppy wanders out .... the owner left the front door open so they could smoke ....and the pup wandered out into the street .

The store owners fault or the pet owner?

Does this LA 14 day gig include dogs and cats which wander out and get run over by an SUV?

If not you do cover fish which wander out........then why?

 

[Anonymous]

Again - points taken - however see my comments on "hobbyist math"... sometimes they really do only look at the price of the critter....

Some hobbyists will drive across town to save $2 on a bag of salt - never mind that it cost them $10 in gas to get it.

Same applies to shipping and such. That's part of the marketing.

The 6-lined Wrasse might be $22.99 at the LFS but it's "ONLY" $15.99 at F&S. Forget the fact that there's $35 shipping for next day air In fact, if one orders up to $225 worth of "cheaper" fish (cheaper than LFS) the cost can about break even with LFS.

That's the point... it's perceived to be cheaper by many.

Yep. The reality I have seen in this regard manifests in complaints about how it seems cheaper, but with shipping it isn't. People get pretty pissy about it. However, now that quality seems to be going up, people complain less.

And what the heck - if Joe Hobbyist overstocks his tank by maxing out his shipping by ordering too much at once - it's all guaranteed anyway!

I *have* seen this happen to a few people. The shipping structure makes it more appealing to order more than one thing. I don't think I know anybody that orders "one" fish (unless it's something rare - in which case it is likely a more learned hobbyist - but that's not what we're being critical of here).

Order enough goodies to stock that 20g all in one fell swoop - never mind that it should be stocked one fish at a time, over time... make the most of that single shipping charge and get it all at once. If it causes a spike and crap happens, they can get more.

I've seen it many times - and the whole model that Race puts out there, promotes that. Nope it's not worth the $35 to ship *one* fish, but if you buy $224.99 worth, the charge is the same. That's a lot of damsels, firefish, clowns, and other small bread-and-butter bits and pieces all at once. Average the cost of shipping over 10 organisms and that six lined wrasse is still cheaper than the LFS.

Forget the notion that you'd have bought the wrasse on one visit, waited a week or three, then added the firefish or whatnot.

That's my biggest peeve - it encourages people to buy in bulk - and that's not necessarily good for the fish - or the hobbyist.

Jenn

Indeed that can be a problem, but the question is how often does it actually happen.
And, it doesn't just happen with etail. I know all of us have stories of people going to other shops and over stocking their tanks, then coming to us to fix it.

BTW, have you seen it many times or to a few people?

 

[Anonymous]

When I dropship and thats "if" I do, I am going to add info in the box so people know to QT them or properly dip the corals. Almost every order I get has parasites on the fish or corals from wholesalers so i can't imagine the issues going on out there. Very small percentages of reefers know all they need to to ship direct from a wholesaler. Thats what LFS are for to ensure the livestock is parasite free prior to sale. Does this happen 100% in LFS, of course not since we are human and can overlook something. At least the attempt is made.

I don't think the attempt is made in even 10% of LFS, and I think every etailer and LFS should be telling customers that everything should be QT'd and dipped regardless of who it came from.

 

[Anonymous]

I think it is in bad taste to make up quotes in a contentious discussion where similar allegations are being tossed around without support. I still have yet to see any evidence of anyone using the LA guarantee is such a crass way.

You truly have never heard of hobbyists wanting to go topless despite having to continually replace their fish from them repeatedly jumping out?

or a trigger owner asking if that nemo will get along with the Clown trigger?

Few hobbyists acclimate new fish and even fewer have quarantine tanks for new arrivals.

Welcome to the real word of fish torturing.

What hobbyists do to fish should not even be legal.

Of course I have seen/heard all of that. What you aren't doing is making the connection between that stuff and using the LA guarantee as a justification for such action.

 

[Kalkbreath]

The whats the advantage over retail?

Which of the four contrasts to traditional retail that we have discussed here would you say best explains the attraction of making web purchases?
1.)The prices are higher.(your words)
2.)Same quality as brick and mortar, the wholesaler ships the same high quality live stock to both the retailers and the end hobbyists(Race claims he doesn't get preferential treatment and that retailers can purchase from QM and be reassured they will get the same high quality stock as F&S.)
3.)You must either pool your order with others to reach the min and to soften the shipping costs.
or you must over load your tank with too many new additions all at once because to purchase only one or two items makes the shipping become too cost prohibitive.

4.) Or might it be this no fault "thingy" you cant seem to find at the local fish store....where even beginning hobbyists add livestock on their terms and jump in knowing that even poor husbandry skills
wont hold them back from their dream of a fully stocked reef the first week!

 

[Anonymous]

The whats the advantage over retail?

Which of the four contrasts to traditional retail that we have discussed here would you say best explains the attraction of making web purchases?
1.)The prices are higher.(your words)
2.)Same quality as brick and mortar, the wholesaler ships the same high quality live stock to both the retailers and the end hobbyists(Race claims he doesn't get preferential treatment and that retailers can purchase from QM and be reassured they will get the same high quality stock as F&S.)
3.)You must either pool your order with others to reach the min and to soften the shipping costs.
or you must over load your tank with too many new additions all at once because to purchase only one or two items makes the shipping become too cost prohibitive.

Your questions have already been addressed in this thread.

BTW, it isn't an either/or thing. There are advantages that retail can have that etail doesn't and that etail can have over retail. One isn't necessarily better, they are different.

4.) Or might it be this no fault "thingy" you cant seem to find at the local fish store....where even beginning hobbyists add livestock on their terms and jump in knowing that even poor husbandry skills
wont hold them back from their dream of a fully stocked reef the first week!

Sigh. Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true, and the same thing can happen at many LFS. The polarization seems really silly.

 

[swsaltwater]

When I dropship and thats "if" I do, I am going to add info in the box so people know to QT them or properly dip the corals. Almost every order I get has parasites on the fish or corals from wholesalers so i can't imagine the issues going on out there. Very small percentages of reefers know all they need to to ship direct from a wholesaler. Thats what LFS are for to ensure the livestock is parasite free prior to sale. Does this happen 100% in LFS, of course not since we are human and can overlook something. At least the attempt is made.

I don't think the attempt is made in even 10% of LFS, and I think every etailer and LFS should be telling customers that everything should be QT'd and dipped regardless of who it came from.

This is where LFS have the upper hand, I tell every single customer that QT is a prefered practice. But if they won't QT I know I have done everything I can via treating my livestock to help lower the risk to them. I think most people still think that when they order online it is coming from holding tanks at that company. If more knew were it really comes from and how wholesalers really don't have the fish long enough to treat it or even look at it much they might not do the order IMO. The wholesalers don't treat fish long enough to make an impact on parasites and nor should they, thats the job of the company that sells the item. I don't mind that I get items with "bugs" in them as long as the animal is healthy and normal treatments can overcome the issue. I hate breaking out the dangerous meds to fix issues.

 

[Anonymous]

When I dropship and thats "if" I do, I am going to add info in the box so people know to QT them or properly dip the corals. Almost every order I get has parasites on the fish or corals from wholesalers so i can't imagine the issues going on out there. Very small percentages of reefers know all they need to to ship direct from a wholesaler. Thats what LFS are for to ensure the livestock is parasite free prior to sale. Does this happen 100% in LFS, of course not since we are human and can overlook something. At least the attempt is made.

I don't think the attempt is made in even 10% of LFS, and I think every etailer and LFS should be telling customers that everything should be QT'd and dipped regardless of who it came from.

This is where LFS have the upper hand, I tell every single customer that QT is a prefered practice. But if they won't QT I know I have done everything I can via treating my livestock to help lower the risk to them. I think most people still think that when they order online it is coming from holding tanks at that company. If more knew were it really comes from and how wholesalers really don't have the fish long enough to treat it or even look at it much they might not do the order IMO. The wholesalers don't treat fish long enough to make an impact on parasites and nor should they, thats the job of the company that sells the item. I don't mind that I get items with "bugs" in them as long as the animal is healthy and normal treatments can overcome the issue. I hate breaking out the dangerous meds to fix issues.

Its where some LFS may have the upper hand. Generalizing to all LFS is dangerous because there are many LFS that are really horrible. LFS do not automatically have an upper hand in this area, and I would venture to say that most of them don't bother. I think there are 4 out of 20 or so LFS in my area that have any kind of QT.

 

[naesco]

I have a question of all those who have posted in this thread.

Do you whether LFS or online store QT your fish and coral before putting it out for sale.

What is your QT procedure and how long to you QT the fish

Thank you

Wayne Ryan

 

[JennM]

What's your store's procedure, Wayne?

OOPS... that's right - you aren't even in the industry!

My bad

Jenn

 

[swsaltwater]

QT is not cost effective due to overhead. I basically fully medicate my fish system and keep the date of the animal. So if someone asks to hold it or how long it's been here we have that info or can put a hold on the animal for them. With powder blues I usually medicate for 7 days, and move to a reef tank for 7 more to make sure they are ich free and eating right. If the customers wants the fish prior to that we will discuss it with them at that point. Usually I bring in enough stock weekly that most stay in meds for more than enough time to kick the parasites prior to sale.

 

[naesco]

What's your store's procedure, Wayne?

OOPS... that's right - you aren't even in the industry!

My bad

Jenn

What is your procedure Jenn.
What is the length of time you QT.

Thank you
Wayne Ryan

 

[Anonymous]

Lets avoid the bait each other but not have a conversation game guys. Thanks

 

[acroporas]

Does a 14 day guarantee cause buyer irresponsibility or does it actually make the buyer more responsible? I would not be surprised at all if offering a 14 day guarantee resulted on fewer claims.

Think about it like this,

You mail order a fish from a place with a DOA guarantee but no DAA guarantee. You open the box, inside is a fish that looks like crap. It is lying motionless in the bottom of the bag, breathing heavy, has torn up fins and looks as it might break out with oodinium any minute. What are you going to do? It is not dead yet, but it looks to be on it’s last leg.

I don’t know about you, but I am not going to take a chance on it. I would not even bother to open the bag, I would call up the etailer and report it as a DOA. They ask to send it back , I’d take the fish out of the bag, toss it in the box still kicking and send the sucker right back.

Now, this time I order from LA with their long DAA warrantee. The fish comes in looking like crap just like before. But since I have 2 weeks to figure out if it is going to die or not, I’m going to put it in a quarantine tank and try to treat it, if I can successfully treat it, great, if not, no harm in trying....

 

[Race]

You will find scores of posts in the Liveaquaria.com RC forum to facilitate the answer to this great question.

Thanks, Race