Drs. Foster and Smith in Target Stores Near You

[Race]

The Target store plans only include dog and cat items at this time. Any future expansion will be at Target's discretion, with our approval. The Target venture is only our initial retail move. The union may last a year or years, depending on consumer buying habits-- which we and Target watch by the day.
The future is unknown, as it should be. The entire industry and the economy is moving too fast to plan beyond a year. I kind of get a chuckle at the famous 5 year plan concept. At Foster and Smith we never bind our hands with an economist's business plan,--- we keep adjusting to the changing consumer. The consumer drives our business plan as we cater to them. We do as we are told, so to speak. We never fight, just roll with the times. B&M and AMDA should have done the same. The Wholesalers have and a few will emerge healthy.

Going back through my critics on RDO, first I was killing the oceans by selling too many fish and coral. Now I am killing the hobby as there are more fish and coral sitting in California than can be sold on the market. Good entertainment.

 

[just dave]

Race

I would have to disagree with you about the Internet being the primary portal through which the majority of hobbyists enter. It is my feeling that peoples interests are piqued the best by personal exposure. This exposure creates a desire and this desire leads to a search for information. Now this is just my opinion based on my own experiences over the years and it is not just confined to the aquarium trade and I would certainly welcome anything that points to the truth of the matter.

I have operated a marine aquarium store since 1995 and I agree with the vast majority of what you have said. Do I view you as threat? Darn tooting I do but to my business and not to the hobby. You are a competitor which makes you a threat to my livelihood but if you are "good" business
you are also an ally because you promote and spread the hobby to the betterment of all involved.

When I am faced with a threat to my business I look inward to see what I can do to combat it. It means I have to adapt and change, especially when this threat alters the "playing field." I realized some time ago that the Internet trade is only going to get bigger and stronger so I made changes to try and co-exist. It's working so far. I am in the process of making another that will hopefully make my business more Internet proof, as it where.

I swore I'd only read this and not reply but since I have I'd like to touch on a couple of other subjects that you mentioned.

First I don't think the Internet is the answer for most B&Ms. The answer as in the "get on board or get left behind" kind of approach. Too many players and too difficult to set ones self apart. I think service is the answer.
Service in all its aspects. From the in the store to the in the home / business.
UPS/FedEx may deliver animals and supplies but they are not going to put a filter together for you, show you how it works, come to your home / business and measure for an aquarium, work with a builder, help you set it up, clean it,....etc.

Secondly you mention you sell your animals at a loss. Years a go a man named John Tullock told me that livestock was the necessary "evil" that an aquarium store sold in order to sell the hardware to support said livestock.
The money was made off the dry goods and not the live goods and if one were to break even on the live goods one should consider themselves fortunate. I think that has changed for the small B&M to some degree. I can see it still being the case for the Internet trade but you do profit from the sale indirectly if not directly. Not trying to state the obvious but to some that point may have been missed.

No ill feelings or ill will on my end. I don't hate you or dislike you , if anything, I envy you.

I hope I have not upset the apple cart here.

 

[Race]

Thank you Dave for the dialogue. We do not sell at a loss because we low ball the price. Somehow readers keep missing that very important point.

My overhead is simply too much in such a high end operation. That should not affect you one bit unless I undercut prices to make a sale. Read RC and you will see that my reputation is anything but a cheap seller of livestock. I am more expensive than most of my competitors including some LFS. We do not even price match. I choose quality and it comes at a cost. I stated before on this board that my intent is not to always lose but rather break even. Yes, selling hard goods is profitable and that is why we purchased Petwarehouse.
On this and other boards, in my early years, retailers complained because we did not sell livestock and care for them. They said " Foster and Smith does not know anything about livestock" So---- we spend over one million dollars building a livestock center in Wisconsin and hiring some of the best talent in the industry. Now the industry still complains.

 

[just dave]

Thank you Dave for the dialogue. We do not sell at a loss because we low ball the price. Somehow readers keep missing that very important point.

I understand and understood it when you talked about prior to this.
My point was just that something involved with the sale of livestock and all that goes with it is profitable even if it is nothing more 'n getting someone to visit the website.

My overhead is simply too much in such a high end operation. That should not affect you one bit unless I undercut prices to make a sale. Read RC and you will see that my reputation is anything but a cheap seller of livestock. I am more expensive than most of my competitors including some LFS. We do not even price match. I choose quality and it comes at a cost. I stated before on this board that my intent is not to always lose but rather break even. Yes, selling hard goods is profitable and that is why we purchased Petwarehouse.

I don't view you as a threat because of any of your practices but because you are a potential competitor and therefore a potential threat to my business. I view all competitors as such. If I fail it is because I did or didn't do something not because you or someone else did something to me. But a dollar spent by my customer someplace else is a dollar less for me.

On this and other boards, in my early years, retailers complained because we did not sell livestock and care for them. They said " Foster and Smith does not know anything about livestock" So---- we spend over one million dollars building a livestock center in Wisconsin and hiring some of the best talent in the industry. Now the industry still complains.

I'm familiar with your interactions on some of the boards. I must also say that I very rarely hear any ill words spoken of Dr's F&S from its many customers of which I have been one. I've seen a quite a few of the animals that come from you or through you and even purchase some from the same source kind of. No complaints here. If I had any complaint it would be that some of your posts seem to take on a "rubbing ones nose in it" approach and while it doesn't bother me ,as I'm very thick skinned, I can see how it would bother others.

 

[Race]

I am one to defend my beliefs and actions. Sometimes it takes a bit of arrogance to stand up to an entire industry. Since I was not allowed to join AMDA, I just took on a " watch me and learn "approach. I will do things my way and I hold no grudges against any retailer that does the same.
I do think we should work together for a common good. Right now the entire hobby has an image problem, ---- here at home. To fight amongst ourselves is really a detriment.

 

[just dave]

I agree.

As far as the AMDA thing goes, you were not missing a thing. Whomever kept you out did you a favor.

 

[Kalkbreath]

The assumption that retail is what gets todays hobbyist into the game is a wrong assumption--- which is the beginning of a failed business plan.

Whether one purchases Montana Black Angus cattle (as I did yesterday)

You really think average joe public gets the idea to buy a cow from the web?
I think a person is usually already in the market for utters before he Googles "Angus" for sale. (without a typo)
Reality check:
Has anyone ever seen a first post from a newbie explaining that they stumbled onto Reefs. org ...saw all the pretty reef aquariums and now wants to take the plunge into the hobby ?
Lets take an online poll and ask how many hobbyists got their start from browsing the web or specifically F&S web presence? Can the public even see what a reef tank looks like on most E-tail sites? Then buy aquariums and pick out stand and canopy colors to match their existing furniture?
I would venture that ninty-nine percent of hobbyists (even on this website) did not get the reef bug without leaving their computer chair.

As a retail store owner I have never had a customer state that they were browsing the web happened to land on a marine reef keeping site and decided that they now are hooked on the idea of spending hundreds on a marine aquarium set up .

In cities without brick and mortar fish stores, the number of hobbyist is nil.

Yet the web is available clear across this Nation ?

I sea a connection, And I believe the wholesalers are beginning to as well.

 

[Anonymous]

The assumption that retail is what gets todays hobbyist into the game is a wrong assumption--- which is the beginning of a failed business plan.

Whether one purchases Montana Black Angus cattle (as I did yesterday)

You really think average joe public gets the idea to buy a cow from the web?
I think a person is usually already in the market for utters before he Googles "Angus" for sale. (without a typo)
Reality check:
Has anyone ever seen a first post from a newbie explaining that they stumbled onto Reefs. org ...saw all the pretty reef aquariums and now wants to take the plunge into the hobby ?
Lets take an online poll and ask how many hobbyists got their start from browsing the web or specifically F&S web presence? Can the public even see what a reef tank looks like on most E-tail sites? Then buy aquariums and pick out stand and canopy colors to match their existing furniture?
I would venture that ninty-nine percent of hobbyists (even on this website) did not get the reef bug without leaving their computer chair.

As a retail store owner I have never had a customer state that they were browsing the web happened to land on a marine reef keeping site and decided that they now are hooked on the idea of spending hundreds on a marine aquarium set up .

I would venture to say that 99% of hobbyists get the reef bug from neither online stores nor B&M's, but from other hobbyists.

In cities without brick and mortar fish stores, the number of hobbyist is nil.

Not true. I was just corresponding with someone that has reef tanks and no B&M within 50 miles of his town.

 

[Kalkbreath]

alright then ..... all most nil.

 

[Kalkbreath]

I would venture to say that 99% of hobbyists get the reef bug from neither online stores nor B&M's, but from other hobbyists.

Then you would agree that placing hobbyists in that town would spawn the process (through association) into action. But short of transplanting existing hobbyists into these no reef towns...whats more effective? A new fish store on the corner or another e-tailer banner here on R.ORG?

Your argument that participation is largely due to association with fellow hobbyists is much like the "chicken or the egg first" predicament.

 

[Anonymous]

I would venture to say that 99% of hobbyists get the reef bug from neither online stores nor B&M's, but from other hobbyists.

Then you would agree that placing hobbyists in that town would spawn the process (through association) into action.

Only if they talk to each other.

But short of transplanting existing hobbyists into these no reef towns...whats more effective? A new fish store on the corner or another e-tailer banner here on R.ORG?

Effective? It depends on what the goal is.

Your argument that participation is largely due to association with fellow hobbyists is much like the "chicken or the egg first" predicament.

Not really. How the hobby started is not a mystery.

 

[Race]

So the solution is ? ah- dah----shut down the web. Yah right!

 

[PeterIMA]

Race, I think the B&M LFS and the web etailers can co-exist. There is a need for both. I agree with Fish Dave that the B&M stores can provide services that the web does not proviide.

It should also be noted that Foster & Smith has on-line competitors. So, etailing is here to stay.

Peter

 

[Race]

Peter I agree. Just as the veterinary hospital can provide services which my pet catalog cannot. Key word is services.

 

[Race]

Kalk,
The average person does not buy and sell cattle on the web----but the average cattle rancher does. Go to www.northernlivestockvideo.com. This did not exist ten years ago and today it is the norm,-- at the expense of auction houses I might add.. Never under estimate the consumers ability. Times are a changin.

 

[Anonymous]

Kalk, do you ever have people who buy stuff off the internet bring it to you for help? One of the LFS owners here told me that happens to him all the time.

I bought a VHO ballast from him the last week. I wired it, and it would only fire one bulb. I took it back to exchange it, but I did want him to look at my wiring first. Turns out I had twisted the wire cover too tight and broke it. It took him less than a minute to find my screw up.

I was glad he was here....

 

[Race]

Key word-----Service

 

[swsaltwater]

Thales, I would agree that a hobbyist do turn out some reefers, but not a lot at all a syou suggest. I think I have had a total of one person come in that said their hobbyist friend sent em in. I think many more see Public aquariums and or restaurants/doc offices with tanks and decide to find a B&M. Of that I would imagine 10-20% did some research online or in books first. A lot of that info was worng such as you can do a saltwater tank under 50 gallons, corals are impossible to keep, saltwater tanks are hard to keep, etc...... I would say only about 15% of my customers visit RC or Reefs.org on any other site on a regular basis. I would imagine that B&M's, the rain forest cafes and other places like it have produced 100 times the hobbyist of Reefs.org or RC.

 

[Anonymous]

Thales, I would agree that a hobbyist do turn out some reefers, but not a lot at all a syou suggest. I think I have had a total of one person come in that said their hobbyist friend sent em in. I think many more see Public aquariums and or restaurants/doc offices with tanks and decide to find a B&M. Of that I would imagine 10-20% did some research online or in books first. A lot of that info was worng such as you can do a saltwater tank under 50 gallons, corals are impossible to keep, saltwater tanks are hard to keep, etc...... I would say only about 15% of my customers visit RC or Reefs.org on any other site on a regular basis. I would imagine that B&M's, the rain forest cafes and other places like it have produced 100 times the hobbyist of Reefs.org or RC.

Could be. I am not sure how the part about online research has to do with that point though. Did you mean 'can't do a saltwater tank under 50 gallons'?

 

[Race]

For whatever it is worth, we have thousands and thousands and thousands of visitors EACH day at our websites. Through Coremetrics we track their behavior. 95 % simply read information but do not purchase. There is a reason that I have a staff that does nothing but research and write.

LiveAquaria.com alone has several thousand unique readers EVERY single day. Not sure why they are reading--- but we know what. Naturally my assumptions will be different than yours. Perhaps they are all ignorant and do not actually learn anything about the hobby. Just for kicks you may also keep an eye on our forum at RC. Oftentimes more users browse and learn there than some other areas.

I will again state that we believe most people visit the web to learn before they decide to enter a hobby. Do any of you have nonaquatic hobbies? Did the web play a role? Did you research the web BEFORE you obtained a new puppy or kitty? I bet more than a few of you did. If you did not--you probably should have. Education is key.