Drs. Foster and Smith in Target Stores Near You

[Race]

Philip,
Thank you for the nice comments. Kevin Kohen and the crew have done a wonderful job with the aquaculture. All the credit goes to them.

And thank you to MASNA for participating. I think that MASNA and it's members and club affiliates are the backbone of the industry. Your organization has emerged as the one that represents all of us in the trade. I have always felt that the reef clubs play a key role in sustainability. Watching the club members and frag traders one has to realize that the individual hobbyist plays the most important role in aquaculture. Every frag that they grow and trade is doing it's part for sustainability. As a group the clubs can do far more than any facility such as LiveAquaria's.

I am proud to support MASNA and I urge every hobbyist to join their local reef and fish club. The clubs and MASNA are a very important part of the future.

Thanks, Race

 

[gdw]

Just trying to disable email notifications to replys ...

 

[walt smith]

Dear All,
I was one of those 700+ people in Wisconsin last week. Although I did not know what to expect I thought it would be a good chance to see first hand what all the fuss was about and catch up with a few friends like Julian, Scott Michael and Kevin Cohen.
I would not even try to venture and opinion on Race's business morals or commitments ... it is simply too complicated of an issue with too many folks "for and against" whatever he has succeeded in doing for our industry.
However, take it from someone who really knows how to deal with live stock, coral farms and has seen it all in many countries at many levels.
My eyes pretty much popped out of my head when I was taken on a personal tour of the coral farm with Race and Kevin. I only wish I had that much to spend on mine.
Everything was done at the very top level to insure the success of the animal’s future and well being. From the many mechanized (on tracks) 400 HQI's to the vats themselves and the placement of the livestock and the obvious care given to each animal all I can say is how very impressed I was. I can also say, I really did not expect this level of commitment from a company so big it's hard to keep track of every little detail.
This is the first time I had a serious talk with Kevin and I now have a new level of respect for him as well. Race couldn't have been more personal and I can see he is really committed to getting it right. So you can take it from someone (who you either hate or like .... don't know anymore) who was there, the husbandry is top notch and very impressive, the rest to me was just a huge warehouse full of dry goods to service the mainstay of their business and finance the livestock part.
I do not wish to get into any debate over my opinion, I just wanted to share my experience with those that may be interested.
Peace to all,
Walt Smith

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for your professional take on it Walt

Kevin Kohen is a top notch guy, that is for sure. I can only venture to guess from the pictures I have seen that the facility he runs is top notch as well

 

[reidi_tim]

OK Walt, do u agree w/Race on his practice on sending Live stock to anybody w/ a credit card??? Surley u'll agree that u'd be better off leaving it on the dock then sending to DR. Fost.... Yes he has the facitlties to do good husbandry, but where do they go from there... yes this practice is killing the and depleted the coral reefs. You should look at u'r own ethics and consider y u r doing buiness w/ this freak. Yes the old school brick and mortar start the folks in this hobby, and y u support Race other the the $$$ gains from selling your livestock it's disturbing, sell u'r self short and he'll own u

 

[Anonymous]

OK Walt, do u agree w/Race on his practice on sending Live stock to anybody w/ a credit card??? Surley u'll agree that u'd be better off leaving it on the dock then sending to DR. Fost.... Yes he has the facitlties to do good husbandry, but where do they go from there... yes this practice is killing the and depleted the coral reefs. You should look at u'r own ethics and consider y u r doing buiness w/ this freak. Yes the old school brick and mortar start the folks in this hobby, and y u support Race other the the $$$ gains from selling your livestock it's disturbing, sell u'r self short and he'll own u

Since it is your first post I won't be editing it for violating the UAA and UA of RDO. Please see this link if you have any questions- http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=94369
Please be respectful of people with ideas and opinions that are different from yours.


As to the content of your post, Race's outfit is just a part of the industry and it is unfair to single him our regarding 'killing the depleted coral reefs'. Actually, I think it will take a big hitter to make changes on the collecting side. Race may end up having influence in this area and I hope he uses his power for good.

Other than that, I think that the internet changed business in general. Everyone needs to adapt.

 

[Race]

reidi,
If Bricks and Mortar are starting people in the hobby--- and I am not---- then who is really responsible for depleting the reefs ? I have never heard a more ignorant argument. With your analogy, the depletion is a result of you creating the demand.

If Bricks and Mortar create the demand, then accept the responsibility for the results of that demand.

In reality we all have a responsibility. The old statement that only Bricks and Mortar get people into the hobby is so stupid in this internet age that I struggle to think that someone actually believes that enough to attempt to write it.

 

[Kalkbreath]

I think part of the issue is the idea of a 14 day no fault guarantee on the part of the supplier.
It kinda re enforces the notion that as a new hobbyist : "I don't have to acclimate my new fish if it dies the supplier will replace it".

As a brick and mortar retailer , I catch new hobbyists almost daily not being honest about their tanks water conditions or about the existing tank mates already in their tank. Its a constant struggle seeking out the truth with new hobbyists. Demanding newbies bring in water samples: has saved hundreds or thousands of fish lives in my store.
I dread the day I begin to sell fish over the web.
All the safeguards a local fish store has in place to keep new hobbyists from themselves , is dreadfully absent when dealing over the web.
Quite frequently do I hear responses like " well the Internet stores would have replaced my fish with no questions asked". "Why are you giving me such a hard time?"

Does a 14 day guarantee safe guard the wellbeing of the fish or the hobbyist?

 

[Race]

The guarantee does not safeguard or kill anything. I have never hidden behind my statistics. Less than 5% of our entire livestock die during shipping or within the first 14 days of being in the customer's tank. I wish that it were even less but I do not believe that retail fares any better. We should all strive to reduce that number. Remember that the Retail death rate must also add the deaths which are incurred when the fish are shipped from the Wholesaler to the retail store. Dropshipping bypasses that step entirely. Not all of our fish and coral are dropshipped but still more than half are. That number is decreasing as we are moving towards selling more high end fish and coral. In reviewing the retailers' death claim forms of some Wholesalers, I believe that the retail process KILLS MORE LIVESTOCK than the dropshipping method. One whole shipping and acclimation is eliminated with dropshipping. Kalk, what are your death (DOA) claims that you report back to your suppliers in search of a refund? Just curious. How about from your customers, any records here?

The 14 day guarantee merely helps with the fact the customer is purchasing sight unseen and we want them to have a comfort level.

I also find it comical that retailers believe that etail does not provide support to the customers. LiveAquaria.com fields hundreds and hundreds of telephone calls and about 200 emails every day. Only 21 % are orders, the rest are questions. Figure that expense in Kalk when you begin selling at Etail. It takes me about 25 full time equivalents in customer service agents (labor) each day to handle the questions. These agents are highly trained with a starting pay way over minimum wage and many having been with the company 5 years or more. Do you guys still wonder where the profits go in selling livestock online?

If you still do not believe me, then please review our Forum on RC and tell me that we do not provide support there. Staffing RC alone costs me more than $35,000.00 per year in labor.

Come on guys, jump into Etail. It is low overhead and a great arena to compete in, just ask the sock puppet.

 

[Anonymous]

I think part of the issue is the idea of a 14 day no fault guarantee on the part of the supplier.
It kinda re enforces the notion that as a new hobbyist : "I don't have to acclimate my new fish if it dies the supplier will replace it".

Maybe. It also says they stand behind their product. I don't really see a difference between the 14 day guarantee and the 1 day, 3 day, and one week guarantee that some LFS supply. I do see a difference between the 14 day guarantee and the no guarantee that many LFS supply.
I think the people who don't care about acclimating their fish don't care about acclimating their fish. An LFS in my area has bag sales, and the death rates from those animals is astronomical, yet people keep going back and buying fish and coral they know will prolly die, but somehow think that this time mabye they will get lucky, heck its kind of cheap. I find this action from a B&M to be hugely more problematic than an etailer's 14 day guarantee.

As a brick and mortar retailer , I catch new hobbyists almost daily not being honest about their tanks water conditions or about the existing tank mates already in their tank. Its a constant struggle seeking out the truth with new hobbyists. Demanding newbies bring in water samples: has saved hundreds or thousands of fish lives in my store.

Your store is an exception. Many B&M's don't care and don't really know how to run a water test. Many don't even ask questions when someone is buying an animal.

I dread the day I begin to sell fish over the web.

I seem to remember you having some sort of live rock sales on the web, but I could be wrong.

All the safeguards a local fish store has in place to keep new hobbyists from themselves , is dreadfully absent when dealing over the web.

I think that is disingenuous, as B&M's are not all the same. B&M's aren't unified in just about any way, and they do not have any kind of consistent anything in place. Many/Most don't have the safeguards good ones like you have in place, and I don't think its fair when people talk about LFS as if they are some sort of cohesive group.

Quite frequently do I hear responses like " well the Internet stores would have replaced my fish with no questions asked". "Why are you giving me such a hard time?"

I remember getting essentially the same question in LFS 20 years ago when a different LFS had a more generous livestock guarantee policy.

Does a 14 day guarantee safe guard the wellbeing of the fish or the hobbyist?

Many B&M's don't care about the well-being of the fish or the hobbyist either, so I am not sure about the question.

 

[swsaltwater]

No doubt etail is the way to go in the future, but LFS's still can be viable to the local markets, I just don't think a city can support as many in the future as it does now.

I have personally seen some fallout of etail shipping though on many occasions, A tank infested with flatworms from DRFS, most likely a dropshipped GSP coral. You know a wholesaler is not gonna dip em, and 90% of customers do not QT or dip. Another case was a fish sold to a customer from your catalog that was not reef safe. It was a wrasse and it ate every snail and crab he put in. Ran him out of the hobby after he or I could not catch him or get rid of hair algae that killed his coral........Just to name a few. So etail is not with out it's delimas.

Definately people are not acclimating items, I offer a warranty, and I get people not acclimating sometimes. Ask em how they acclimated and they seem a bit dumfounded and then make something up. It's pretty obvious and I am sure they do it to you all the time. In fact I recall hearing someone brag about your warranty and not needing to acclimated with SPS at a club auction cause it's replaced . I have very few people report DAA's in the guranteed time so it's still worth it to have a warranty.

I do believe the Retail setting kills some fish due to stress, but no more then wholesalers get. You got kids and adults constanly looking into the tanks, some tapping glass and stressing fish. I have lots of rock for them to hide but it does not always help with easily spooked tangs, gobies, jawfish, etc. I see some stores with no hiding spots at all and I can only imagine this causes more issues then I see. Easily 5%-10% dead rate from good wholesalers, and well over 25% from the bad ones. I have narrowed it down to 3-4 places to trust shipping me fish(and even they have bad weeks), and about 3 more if I go pick em up myself.

I also wonder how accurate your numbers are Race. I imagine some of your customers do not call you to collect if it is their fault as well, still a few honest peeps out there, and I had a few tell me they lost stuff but knew it was their tank so did not make a warranty claim from me. I also imagine the losses post 14 days is higher as well, a lot of diseases coming out of wholesalers tanks might not run their course in time, and dropshipping means your customers get an untreated fish. At least some LFS's have copper as well as other medicines in their tanks, something I started and am glad I did. Some larger ones QT but I see no benefit to this as it rises costs and takes any profit left out of the sale with little to no change in DOA/DAA's. Most death's come from shipping stress or bad parameters in home tanks.

The only question I have for Walt is, what happens when the overwhelming support wholesalers are giving to etail put's the majority of LFS's out of business. Does the industry track who drives their biggest sales? I have wholesalers calling me weekly to get an order so I know they are super slow now. Also the variety of species avail seems off, I am getting very low fill rates lately.

 

[cindre2000]

Your store is an exception. Many B&M's don't care and don't really know how to run a water test. Many don't even ask questions when someone is buying an animal.

Are you including the Walmarts and Petco's in this estimation? Sure there are are lots of B&M that don't care and don't run water tests; however, it is those stores that lose money on fish sales and rely on selling quantity over quality. They attract the customers who don't know what they are doing and don't care.

A successful B&M has to rely on good customer service. I know at the store I work at we get a number of customers because they are tired of the large chains that don't know what they are doing. On the other hand we get a good number that would be better off going to a large chain. But a B&M store is the one losing out every time they sell a non-compatible fish or an obviously ill one. They lose out on the good customers who care about their fish and will come back every week to check out the livestock.

 

[Anonymous]

Your store is an exception. Many B&M's don't care and don't really know how to run a water test. Many don't even ask questions when someone is buying an animal.

Are you including the Walmarts and Petco's in this estimation?

I wasn't, because in these discussions they are generally not considered regular B&M's.

Sure there are are lots of B&M that don't care and don't run water tests; however, it is those stores that lose money on fish sales and rely on selling quantity over quality. They attract the customers who don't know what they are doing and don't care.

A successful B&M has to rely on good customer service.

There are B&M's that rely on quantity for success - see the bag lot sale store in one of my previous posts.

 

[Race]

SW,
Wholesalers are calling you weekly to sell more fish and coral. They are me too. The fact is that almost all areas of livestock sales are domestically down from expectations. I know this as fact as I have discussed it with many Wholesalers.
Question---Who is creating this huge demand that is killing the resource ? Seems to me that the domestic demand may be down from expectations ----- not up. Right now there is a greater supply of many types of livestock than can be marketed.

Kind of odd that some totally blame me for depleting the resource when I cannot market all which is offered to me.

 

[walt smith]

Dear reidi tim and sw,
OK I really did not want to get into this argument only report what I saw in Wisconsin and the respect I gained for F&S when I saw their professional coral system, which I still state is one of the best husbandry practices I have seen anywhere.
Kalk, I have also been in your store and I put you on an equal level of being one of the best I have witnessed with beautiful coral on display and well looked after. I also noticed your practice of fragging almost every coral you brought in to maximize your profits and as we discussed this I agreed with you about how difficult it is to make a profit in this business as you pointed out the necessity of this practice and following the request of your customers to only buy a small piece of a larger coral. This is what business owners in these days have to do to survive … listen to your customers and innovate with new ideas to meet customer demands.
However, you both have the wrong idea if you think that I actually sell directly to F&S ….I do not! They are customers of mine in a dry goods line of artificial coral that my wife runs and Fiji Gold but I only sell my live coral, fish and rock to distributors mostly in LA. I do not care how big a store is I simply can not sell them directly because of my commitment to my wholesalers. They do buy my corals from one of my distributors and that’s the way it should be (distributors sell to stores) and they have chosen not to buy my rock in lieu of another rock from a distributor I do not deal with. That’s the simple truth.
I also share an opinion with many who have posted that there is a union between B&M and Etail. This is not unique to the fish business it is happening in every facet of business. I also believe (but could be totally wrong) that the promotion they do for their business brings the level of new comers and beginners up for everyone involved. According to Race they send out 55 million catalogs four times a year. Do really think everyone who gets a catalog spots an item they want and calls them. I actually think it’s a little in the other direction. Their catalog probably inspires awareness in new products or makes the hobbyist consider their tank more often and also inspire them to visit their local LFS. I do not believe everyone has the guts to order their coral or fish sight unseen through the sleet and snow but their existence will make the hobby interest grow.
SW. Regarding your remark about how I affect the environment and to look at my own back yard. Did you just craw out from under a rock? I have been on the forefront for many years now campaigning for safe and sustainable practices within our industry. Our Fiji station has become a worldwide model for how to do this right with a “Collection Area Management Plan” and paying for reef scientist to visit our sites twice a year to report our impact and suggest and changes we need to make to remain sustainable. We have achieved a status of zero impact in our collection sites mostly due to the number of corals we plant and grow. Our current figures show that we now grow a minimum or 20 corals for every one that we export. We were the first in the world to grow coral commercially at a huge loss to our infrastructure over the years. Furthermore, after we proved it could be done we offered training to other countries. You know all those aqua cultured corals you have been buying from Bali instead on my Fiji ones? Guess who hosted those companies from Bali in my Fiji station to train them so they could go back to Indonesia to compete with me? Did I need to do this …? Of course not, I wanted to do this because I believe it is good to move the industry in this direction whether it is necessary or not because of our proven sustainability over and over again but it does satisfy those who do not believe this fact.
In short, I love this hobby and the reef and I respect those that do their best to provide the most advanced technology available to keep this precious resource alive, happy and thriving. Whether friend or foe, customer or not if you are doing a good job creating a proper home for the corals we collect I will compliment you for your efforts. There are too many out there that try to do everything on the cheap and the corals and the hobby loose … F&S is not one of them from what I have seen.
Thanks for letting me rant … obviously I am not too busy today.
Walt

 

[walt smith]

SW
Sorry I made an error this comment was actually meant for reidi tim

SW. Regarding your remark about how I affect the environment and to look at my own back yard. Did you just craw out from under a rock? I have been on the forefront for many years now campaigning for safe and sustainable practices within our industry...............

 

[Anonymous]

Hey Walt,

:welcome:

Good to see you posting. You can edit your posts if you find errors after clicking submit. Just click the 'edit' button in the top left corner of the post. What you did was fine too, just giving you another option for the future.

RR

 

[Race]

Walt, Thank you for attending our 2007 Coral Coference. The hobby and I appreciated it.

Guys,
Walt Smith and all other Wholesalers do not sell Foster and Smith/LiveAquaria at the expense of retailers. That is a complete myth. Walt is 100% correct in his description of our business relationship. We purchase some of his products through the same distributors which retail stores use and at the same pricing structure. We purchase from almost every Wholesaler and Distributor in the US and I am not aware of any "better than retail" deals.

 

[swsaltwater]

I only wanted to know if walt or anyone tracks data on livestock sales, who is buying more, etail or retail? I still feel the vast majority of sales is retail but rapidly shifting as LFS's can't compete with ever lower pricing/margins by etailers and end up going out of business. I basically see this as devaluing the product which will ultimately require wholesalers, distributors, and importers to lower their prices.

On a side note the lowball etail prices also allow people that really can't afford the hobby to enter it which is not good IMO. They won't have the money to properly care for the livestock in the long run.

P.S. I love what you have done on the mariculture front Walt and the hobby is indebted to you. If you own stock in PAF lupe deserves a raise BTW.......

 

[Race]

SW,
Is it actually a fact that Etail prices on livestock are cheaper than at Retail? I know that there is different retail pricing when Petco and Petsmart are considered but I am talking the normal good LFS..

I do not believe that LiveAquaria.com pricing on the average to expensive fish and corals are indeed cheaper than can be found at Retail. RC is full of posts to the contrary. We are often referred to as expensive but worth it--- and we enjoy that analogy. I lose my profitability in the husbandry, shipping, labor and service end of the P&L-- not in the gross selling price.

Bottom line--- I do not believe that it is always true that Etail and specifically, LiveAquaria.com, sells at a cheaper price than can be found at Retail. We are probably cheaper than some Retailers and more expensive than others.

Might be a good project for someone.