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swsaltwater

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I think in all a large volume store like Big Al's can compete with etail in a large market. Small market LFS's can not pay overhead with etail margins, heck most LFS's in large markets like Phoenix also cant compete with the low ball etailers. In most cases your prices on the bread and butter items undercut LFS prices, some of the rare stuff is on par but you also have to realize LFS's usually get cut out of the rare items since by the time we get our orders the locals in LA and etailer cherry pickers have laid claim to the good stuff.

Petco is not even a LFS in my book, I make more money fixing mistakes from there then so I ignore them for the most part. Heck I heard the local petco put shrimp and coral in a system treated with copper. I think any LFS would go broke trying to keep up with them, their pockets are too deep.
 

Race

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It is interesting to me that we use the internet and this board to conduct business but yet you want to deprive the hobbyist of that same right. I feel that the business and commerce climate has forever changed. There will be fall out just as in the Travel Agency business. Do you still use a travel agent or do you book tickets and hotels online?
Sorry to say, but my travel agent is history.
 

swsaltwater

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I am not saying etail should be banned and I refer people online for info, but I think what Walt mentioned about not selling to LFS's is what I had in mind. Wholesalers are not protecting the B&M shops that fed them and their families for years. They are selling the best items to etailers at the same price a LFS pays. I think etailers and service companies should be allowed to order but not at the same price as us (JMHO). I go to LA and I see what is there on Sundays, and what is left when phone orders go in. The best stuff is already held for cherry pickers(Marine Depot Live, etc), early walk ins, and large volume stores. You would think they would hold some good stuff for the LFS's that phone order. Also one of the reasons I like PAF, when something good comes in they might put a limit on it to allow more stores to get some.

This is kinda the same reason you would be pissed off if coralife sold to me at the same price you buy at Race.........You have the volume so you get volume discounts. I commend Walt Smith for protecting his wholesalers but I think they should follow suit for the LFS's. Or let Walt start selling to us direct hehe........

Walt do you supply etailers direct and not LFS's? I was told Reefer madness has a direct link to you. Just curious.....
 

Race

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We do not get any quantity discounts on livestock that is not on the normal price list. Retailers and Etailers buy off the same stock status report.

In the hardgoods ( supplies) then the more one buys the better the pricing. Petco and Petsmart pay less per item than I do. I do not have a problem with that as they earned the right by being a bigger volume player than me. Just the way most businesses are structured and I do not expect it to change.
 

Race

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Rich,
There may come a time when a major Wholesaler again elects to sell direct to the hobby. All in all, I do not think it is a good fit.

Marketing to the end user is very capital and labor intensive. These types of facilities which would employ perhaps hundreds of employees are not well suited to the high rent warehouse districts surrounding the livestock ports. Remember that was Flying Fish's failed business model. The same is true for Florida's original Etropicals. Both were originally started and owned by Wholesalers. I know because I purchased them and that was one criteria that spelled their demise.

A simpler feat would be for a company such as mine, LiveAquaria.com, to start or purchase an existing Importer/Wholesaler. We do not see that as a wise strategy either as importing and marketing are so vastly different. Additionally, to secure the readily saleable livestock an Importer must also take all the incoming poor quality and slow moving fish and corals and these need to be flushed out through the trade. We would not have the retail avenues to do that. If Walt or any other wholesaler goes direct then they would not keep those channels either. Believe me, Kevin and I have researched this well and we concur that it would be a poor business decision for us or anyone else. Not saying it cannot be done but I do not see it reaching a scalable level. Again, part of the demise of Flying Fish and the original Etropicals.

My take is that the industry will not go back to the predropshipping era. It is a fact that it takes both the Retailers and the Etailers volume to keep the Wholesalers healthy. Right now the Wholesalers are not in good financial positions and that hurts all of us. Most Wholesalers are flat in volume and at least some have reduced staffing in 2007. I see consolidation on the horizon at the Importation level. Is this good ? It should be O.K. as I think there will still be enough Wholesalers and Distributors to prevent a monoply. Niche Wholealers, those who specialize in certain types of livestock really do not exist at marketable levels. We need the big guys such as Walt Smith, Quality Marine, SDC and others. This is not a sales pitch for any, just common names that most in the industry can identify with.

When Retailers leave their Wholesaler for one that does not sell to Etailers they are really taking their business to an unstable Wholesaler who may not be there in the future. I would not expect the original Wholesaler to welcome them back on equal terms.-------- A better plan would be to put the etail vs. retail differences aside and support the Wholesaler(s) who can deliver quality live stock on time, most every time.-------------- That in itself should drive the business decision, any other criteria will become a downfall.

You never hear me complaining about who else my livestock suppliers may be selling to. It does not matter as long as I get treated fairly. I need healthy Wholesalers and so does everyone else in this hobby. To be healthy and have a variety of livestock, Wholesalers need volume. That volume comes from a combination of retail and etail accounts, not one or the other. I do not know of one single good Wholesaler that does not use both retail and etail accounts to achieve the needed volume . They may claim otherwise but I know better as I pay the bills. I will buy from whoever delivers quality livestock and the price paid will be secondary. I suggest that criteria for everyone.

My bottom line advise--retail and etail, put your differences aside and purchase your livestock from the Wholesalers that have the best product and track record for delivery, period. Forget who else they sell to as the Internet, Petco and Petsmart are here for your lifetime. Without healthy Importers/Wholesalers,---- we do not have a hobby or our businesses.

Sorry for the length---Race
 
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Anonymous

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Thanks for the reply Race.

My question about Walt was because sometimes LFS seem to think its ok for them to bypass the wholesaler to go direct to the collector/exporter, but at the same time LFS seem to become unhappy at the idea of the hobbyist bypassing the LFS to go direct with the wholesaler or collector. :D

There was an outfit called Twilight Aquatics in Hawaii that marketed directly to the hobbyist, and everyone I know who used them loved them even though they were more expensive than the traditional COC. You called them and they collected what you wanted, held it for a week, and sent it to you - unless they had already collected it (they sometimes kept a small stock on hand). This 'collect as ordered' strategy always struck me as more ecologically sound than the 'collect everything and hope it sells strategy' that we see most of the time today. At all levels of the COC we see the 'have everything on hand in case someone wants it' strategy which IMO results in animals that no one really wants being collected, animals that don't do well in aquaria being collected, animals being over collected, and animals languishing and dying at collecting stations, wholesalers and LFS because they aren't equipped to handle the animals long term (not all, but there are many out there).
I have my doubts that this will ever catch on simply because it is too expensive, but it seems to me like it is a better way to collect animals and I am always a fan of that, even if the method seems impractical (replacing cyanide was thought impractical). I am one of those people that think people should be paying more for our animals instead of walmart/costco prices and I worry about animals being a volume business for the reasons I stated at the end of the previous paragraph. The cut flower mentality regarding aquarium animals seems to be growing again, and that worries me a great deal.
As the world continues to change, I tend to hope that someone will decide to try the 'collect as ordered' strategy again, and that the ubiquitous nature of the computer, internet and technology in general will make it financially feasible.
 

Race

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I agree that this model appears to be ideal. I am not sure how feasable it is on anything but a small scale. I think that it is also being done in Florida.

To be honest, I am not well versed on these companies and probably should be. Thank you for bringing the idea to light.

Thanks, Race
 

reidi_tim

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Just curios Race have you ever asked a customer their water parameters or how long their tank has been set up b-4 making a sale? Or have u ever tested any of your customers water? Or have u ever told a customer u'r tank is not ready for this and lost a sale?? ( for the day ) As an Etailer u don't no what enviroment u'r sending live stock to.. would u agree w/this
 

Race

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Reidi,
As I stated, please review our history. I am sure that you provide a good service to the hobby as do many retailers.

If you care, please go to our written service section and you will see thousands of dollars worth of advice. That is not free to produce. As I have written previously--- only about 21 % of our phone calls and emails are orders,----- all of the rest are questions pertaining to water parameters, husbandry and the like, about 1500 times per day. Almost all are prior to the sale.

Thank you, Race
 
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Anonymous

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I know as a life long hobbyist myself, I will not not buy from an etailer if the livestock or product is available from one of my local fish stores. My LFS are my only source of frozen food, and I want them to stay in business. Plus, seeing a fish eat in the store is comforting. I support stores that don't import endangered or unsustainable specimens, owners that are conscious of our hobby's impact.
I also don't shop at Petco, Petsmart for aquarium stuff, but I do buy dog supplies there. I will look at Target for Dr F & S pigears. Tell me they will be cheaper now?
 
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Anonymous

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I don't really understand the idea of putting Race's feet to the fire in terms or customer support regarding water tests or parameter questions or age of system questions when so many B&M's don't do water tests (or worse, use strip tests) or ask any questions during a sale.
 

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