Questions regarding Asian sources of seahorses

[Elysia]

I hope that somebody here will be able to confirm or deny rumors that seem prevalent in hobbyist circles regarding the rearing of non-native seahorses in net pens in the ocean in Asia.

I understand that net pen rearing of juvenile horses does occur in Asia, as I have been able to find references documenting this. The belief is that economic incentive will convince the fishermen to keep the juvenile horses in the net pens until they reach a larger size, thus allowing the horses the opportunity to breed (and those fry to return to the wild) prior to being harvested for use in the traditional Chinese medicine trade. I am not sure if any evidence has shown that this practice has benefited the local fishermen or the wild population of seahorses, but in theory it was to benefit both.

Although this project started with seahorses native to the area in question that were being harvested for the TCM trade, hobbyists now feel that the practice has evolved to non-native horse species and that some of the horses are being sold to wholesalers and LFS. Obviously, there are some serious consequences if non-native seahorses are being kept in the ocean in net pens; however, I do not know of anyone who has actual proof that this is being done. There are aquaculture companies in Asia that are breeding and rearing H. reidi, but none that I have seen are doing so in the ocean.

Does anyone have proof that non-native seahorse species are being raised in the ocean in net pens in Asia? I would appreciate any information anyone has on this subject. Thank you.

 

[jhemdal1]

You might first try contacting Project Seahorse. Here is the link to their contact page:

http://seahorse.fisheries.ubc.ca/contact.html


Jay Hemdal

 

[RichardS]

This question is being asked because of a post on another forum so I am just posting it here in hopes of getting a better response from those who are selling these seahorses.

Some of you are new to seahorses, and you may be wondering, "What's the difference?" These terms may seem a little confusing and misleading to you, and trust me, they are not misleading by accident.

A Captive Bred, or CB for short, seahorse has been bred in captivity using synthetic seawater in enclosed, sterile systems. These seahorses have proven extremely hardy, easy to breed, and long-lived. They are trained to eat frozen mysis shrimp before sale, which makes them easy to feed. An excellent alternative to Wild Caught.

A Wild Caught seahorse has been caught in the wild. CITES has limited the distribution of WC seahorses, so you probably won't see them around much. History has shown that these seahorses are difficult to keep in captivity. They often never eat frozen foods, and must be provided with live foods for life. They most often come with parasites and other diseases that are difficult or impossible to treat, even prophylactically.

Now, when we get to tank raised/maricultured/tank bred/net pen raised seahorses, things are a little different. You might be saying, "But isn't it a good thing to buy Tank Raised?"

I STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT TANK RAISED, MARICULTURED, TANK BRED, AND NET-PEN RAISED SEAHORSES ARE THE NUMBER ONE THREAT TO THE SEAHORSE HOBBY.

Let me explain the history behind it.

Net pen raising is the brain child Amanda Vincent, self-proclaimed seahorse expert. It was invented to give poor people an alternative to catching them in the wild. Instead, they catch the juveniles, raise them in net pens in the ocean where the seahorses eat natural foods in their natural environments. Most of the net pen raised seahorses bred every year go on to be sold in the Traditional Chinese Medicine trade. Literally Tons, thousands and thousands of pounds. As an afterthought, many breeders started to sell their excess to US, the Aquarium trade.

Most often, it is done like this--When the breeder is done harvesting for the TCM trade, their excess is often put into bare bottom tanks flushed constantly with natural sea water. The seahorses are packed in like sardines. They finish "growing them out" here, thus allowing them to be called "tank raised." They are fed frozen foods, but not what I would call "trained." Basically, any seahorses that refuse to eat the frozen foods die, and are carted off to be sold to TCM. The ones that survive are then sold to us in the aquarium trade. These resulting seahorses are often loaded with parasitic and bacterial infections like Vibrio, even webbing. They are like little ticking time-bombs. Many of these infections are highly contagious to other syngnathids (including your pipefish) and incurable, even with prophylactic treatment. Even expert seahorse keepers who are capable of raising fry have had bad luck with these "tank raised" seahorses.

Now, some problems with this system--breeding a seahorse using natural seawater and mostly natural foods from the ocean is really cheap. The cost is next to zero. That makes net-pen raised seahorses very inexpensive. Legitimate captive breeding costs money. The salt, the food, it all adds up. Most seahorse breeders charge from $50-$100 per seahorse, and they never take home a paycheck. The most commonly "tank bred" or net pen raised seahorses are H. kelloggi and H. kuda. These species are not always native to the areas where they are being net pen raised. This means that some hybrids have been reported. Hybrids making it into the trade, and hybrids in the wild. Also, it's difficult to quantify exactly how much waste and pollution is produced by this method of breeding tons and tons of seahorses. But I can assure you, it is not minimal.

Back to the money issue. In the past year, most of the legitimate captive breeding facilities have closed down. Draco Marine just stopped production, they are shipping their last order this week. Poor Jorge could never bring home a paycheck. There are only a couple left, NYseahorse and Dan U. from seahorsesource in Florida. Neither have much in stock right now. There is still Ocean Rider in HI, but that's only if you want to pay $150 up to $999 for a single seahorse.

Right now, the most common species being tank raised are kuda and kelloggi. As far as I know, no one is breeding kelloggis in synthetic sea water. Maybe a couple kudas. Unfortunately, not much is known about kelloggi seahorses, except how to mass produce them. Being a deep-water seahorse, it is speculated that they may prefer temperatures even lower than where most people keep their seahorses at 74*. They have a horrible track record in captivity. Most only live for a few months. The ones that do last a year are the lucky ones, and that's a significantly short life span for that size of seahorse.

There are so many other species out there, why buy TR and limit your options? The most commonly Captive Bred seahorse is H. erectus. they are also the hardiest and most prolific, some say the most beautiful. As far as I know, they are not available TR. But there are so many other options, or at least, there used to be. At the very least, 10 or 15 different species are bred in captivity, but not available as net-pen raised or tank raised. Why? because the main purpose of net pen raising is not for us, the aquarists. It's for the TCM!

So next time you go into your LFS and you see a H. kelloggi or worse, Hippocampus sp. or "yellow seahorse," please pass on it. You'll be saving yourself some heartache. Educate your LFS and even your favorite online vendors. Tell them that you demand legitimate Captive Bred seahorses. Be cautious and do your homework. Some vendors and retailers are sneaky about it. Even ORA is importing TR seahorses (their reidi are net-pen raised)! Educate other beginning seahorse hobbyists. There is no other way to save this wonderful seahorse hobby.

I have made a promise to myself, and to the seahorse hobby, to never buy a tank bred seahorse. I will only buy from a legitimate captive breeding facility that uses synthetic seawater, bare bottom tanks, and frozen mysis. Join me, and make the promise. IF WE DON'T STOP BUYING TANK RAISED SEAHORSES, SOON WE WON'T HAVE A CHOICE!

Feel free to add your comments and opinions.

Since many of you are importing & selling seahorses perhaps you can shed a little light on the subject of captive bred, pen raised, tank raised etc. Do you make any these distinctions when selling horses? From lists I have recieved I only recall seeing seahorses listed as Tank Raised and I assumed all seahorses that aren't listed as Tank Raised are wild caught. What does "Tank Raised" mean to you?

I do have a few questions of my own.

Are seahorses treated any differently than other fish by wholesalers? To be more specific, are they put into the same systems with other fish, what temperature are these systems kept at, are seahorses fed while they are in a wholesalers system (if so how often and what are they fed), how long are seahorses typically at a wholesalers facility?

Do you experience more/less/same losses on these "tank raised" seahorses versus wild caught seahorses?

How do seahorse sales compare to other popular species of fish? Is it enough to make changes to the way that you care for & obtain seahorses?

Why is it seahorses are so often sold as yellow, black, orange, striped etc. instead of listing what species they are? Are they coming to you as unidentified species?

 

[jhemdal1]

Wow,

That quote has so many false statements, half-truths and other garbage in it, I wouldn't even know where to begin, so I'll just pick the three issues that come to mind first:

1) Saying Dr. Vincent is a "self-proclaimed seahorse expert" isn't true - she is a well-respected scientist who co-authored a book with Sara Lourie and Heather Koldeway (ne: Hall). Using that phrase is meant only to demean. Go online and read the last ten years of annual reports for Project Seahorse and then judge for yourself!

2) Her team was instrumental in getting Hippocampus sp. listed as CITES II - yeah people all bitched about it, but it had to happen. They are also very focused on developing and monitoring Marine Protected Areas as a means to preserve habitat. This is something nobody can argue against - we must have MPA's!

3) Dr. Vincent has actually been very vocal against keeping seahorses in captivity, so she isn't going to overtly help the trade IMO. I don't personally share her opinion on this, but I can respect it.

Bottom line - this person quoted in the last message has blended the work of Project Seahorse with for-profit seahorse farms (most in Vietnam). These are related ONLY in the aspect that Dr. Vincent did have a pilot program in the Phillippines that other people copied. Finally, I hear this person argue for captive raised seahorses in synthetic seawater as being a better product. That probably is the case in terms of adaptibility to home aquariums, but their rhetoric sounds REALLY familar to me - like a company trying desperately to slam a competitor because they can't compete with directly with them in an open market - hmmmmm?

Jay Hemdal

 

[RichardS]

Finally, I hear this person argue for captive raised seahorses in synthetic seawater as being a better product. That probably is the case in terms of adaptibility to home aquariums, but their rhetoric sounds REALLY familar to me - like a company trying desperately to slam a competitor because they can't compete with directly with them in an open market - hmmmmm?

Jay Hemdal

No, this post is from a hobbyist stating their view and asking for corrections. From a hobbyist's perspective the seahorses obtained direct from breeders are indeed a much better product. As a retailer I did not stock seahorses because they weren't profitable due to losses but I am also "into" seahorses so I did order them for myself. My experience with the 40 or so seahorses I obtained via LA wholesalers I had a 99% loss rate. With horses obtained from breeders and even asian horses that skipped the LA wholesalers I have a 95% survival rate. So my opinion based on my experience is that the problem lies in the care recieved in transit to the hobbyist's aquarium rather than the fact that they are asian horses. I may be wrong about that though, hence the questions.

Unfortunately, there are few options for hobbyist's since Draco Marine has shut down which only leaves SeahorseSource as a source for direct from the breeder purchases.

Bottom line - this person quoted in the last message has blended the work of Project Seahorse with for-profit seahorse farms (most in Vietnam). These are related ONLY in the aspect that Dr. Vincent did have a pilot program in the Phillippines that other people copied.

That is why they are asking for clarification on how things are done in the for-profit farms.

I don't know the details of why but apparently there are many within the seahorse community that do not have a high opinion of Dr. Vincent so that is probably something left to another thread.

 

[Anonymous]

I have seen the same quote posted on quite a few websites, by Mollysomething or other. It's on Marine Depot's forum, on RC and I think probably elsewhere.

My experience with the captive breeders you mention is much different than yours. I ordered 4 from Draco Marine, 2 wouldn't eat at all and perished quickly, one picked at an occasional bite and lasted a bit longer. One is alive and well after a little rehab. I still have my Ocean Rider stock after a few years, so I wonder if they use ocean water to raise their fry? They are in Hawaii....

I wonder if the issues raised about stress during transport, wholesalers and the like could be addressed, to make net penned fish more viable. If a supplier (Marine Depot, Live Aquaria or RichardS) could take these fish, feed them healthy food for a few weeks then ship them to hobbyists, could maricultured fish be a solution to a difficult problem? We've all seen the destructive forces our hobby brings to our delicate reefs.

I think the bashing of Vincent goes way back within the seahorse community.

Richard, I don't think the person who wrote that quote really wants "corrections" or even a discussion. When I tried on MD, she left.

 

[Anonymous]

Elysia, just to state the obvious about your question: Why would a net pen farmer go to another ocean to get larvae or fry to raise in his ocean when he has his own fry to raise?

 

[PeterIMA]

Two companies breeding Hippocampus species in Vietnam advertise on their websites that they have CITES export permits. A USA-based import company has advertised on its website (May 2007) 600 specimens of tank reared Hippocampus species in stock from Vietnam. It was also reported that 10,000-15,000 cultured Hippocampus are exported monthly from Khanh Hoa. The Nha Trang Institute of Oceanocgraphy (NIO) has successfully bred Hippocampus kuda, H. comes, H. spinosissimus, and H. trimaculatus. Most of the breeding and export of tank-reared seahorses has occurred since 2006.

Most of the seahorses exported from Vietnam are harvested from the ocean. Based on importer records with CITES, exports of Hippocampus to the USA accounted for over 90 per cent of all reported live wild sourced exports from Vietnam in 2005. H. kuda and H. erectus made up just under 20% each and H. kelloggi made up 55% of the live wild caught export trade in Hippocampus species from Vietnam 2000-2005.

H. erectus is not native to Vietnam. It is not clear whether H. erectus was actually imported from Vietnam. It may simply be a species misidentification.

Peter Rubec

 

[RichardS]

My experience with the captive breeders you mention is much different than yours. I ordered 4 from Draco Marine, 2 wouldn't eat at all and perished quickly, one picked at an occasional bite and lasted a bit longer. One is alive and well after a little rehab. I still have my Ocean Rider stock after a few years, so I wonder if they use ocean water to raise their fry? They are in Hawaii....

I have no doubt that people do sometimes have problems with seahorses from those breeders also but overall that seems to be uncommon rather than the norm. I left OR off since they seem to be pricing their stock beyond the reach of the average hobbyist. Last time I looked at their site they were asking $900 for a red H. erectus. I got a brown erectus for $25 and added some red decor, now she is a red erectus but I don't think I will be able to get $900 for her.

I wonder if the issues raised about stress during transport, wholesalers and the like could be addressed, to make net penned fish more viable. If a supplier (Marine Depot, Live Aquaria or RichardS) could take these fish, feed them healthy food for a few weeks then ship them to hobbyists, could maricultured fish be a solution to a difficult problem? We've all seen the destructive forces our hobby brings to our delicate reefs.

Well Marine Depot and Live Aquaria are likely dropshipping their horses from LA wholesalers so I don't think that will happen. I think the hobby demand for seahorses would be much greater if it were easy to obtain healthy stock. If you put seahorses in a store everyone is interested in them except those who have already tried and failed at keeping them. The thing is that if you get healthy stock they are really an easy animal to keep, it's getting healthy stock that seems to be the hard part.

Peter - Thanks for that info. Does NIO actually supply seahorses to the US market or are they strictly a research institution?

 

[Elysia]

Elysia, just to state the obvious about your question: Why would a net pen farmer go to another ocean to get larvae or fry to raise in his ocean when he has his own fry to raise?

I am not saying that this does in fact happen. Other hobbyists are saying that it is happening.

I like to be informed, but someone saying something is so isn't enough to make me believe them. The quote above states that ORA sells net pen raised H. reidi from Asia, despite the fact that in another forum a member posted an email received from ORA stating that ORA's imported reidi were pond raised in Asia. This is/can be a significant difference, in particular in regard to the potential impact on native seahorse populations.

I believe the idea that non-native species are being raised overseas comes from the 'fact' that larger species of seahorse are 'preferred' for the TCM trade (although I have read that a number are ground up before they are even exported); my reading suggests that this makes H. ingens particularly desired (and no one is yet complaining that this species is being exported out of Asia.)

Companies are breeding H. reidi in Asia, but of the ones that advertise themselves on the internet, none appear to be doing their raising in net pens in the ocean. I don't necessarily trust advertising, either, but I think it would better serve hobbyists to actually know why it is that certain horses seem to languish in captivity rather than just blame it on being net pen raised in the ocean if indeed the 'problem' horses are not raised in net pens.

That is why I am interested if anyone has any first hand knowledge of what is going on... I do not support the general condemnation of rearing larval fishes to market size and believe that guidelines given to the public should be fairly specific in their language, which is the criticism and suggestion that I gave to the author of the quoted passage above (and I agree, SeahorseWhisper, that the author did not take criticism, discusion, or suggestions very well.)

 

[RichardS]

my reading suggests that this makes H. ingens particularly desired (and no one is yet complaining that this species is being exported out of Asia.)

I know ERI has only recently started offering Tank Raised H. ingens. So it's probably just a matter of time.

 

[PeterIMA]

I have contacts with an NGO in Vietnam that is working with fishers and MO collectors. I recently reviewed a DRAFT report on the Marine Aquarium trade in Vietnam, that will be released soon. It has quite a lot to say about seahorse exports (CITES data), mariculture, and wild harvest.

The questions being raised are important both for the trade and the future viabilty of the seahorse populations (that sustain both the The Chinese Medicine trade and the MO trade). All 7 species of seahorses in Vietnam are listed as being threatened by overharvesting. So, aquaculture/mariculure is important. At the moment, I don't know enough about what species are being bred and reared and how this is done. I will attempt to get answers to the questions being raised.

Peter Rubec

 

[Elysia]

I recently reviewed a DRAFT report on the Marine Aquarium trade in Vietnam, that will be released soon.

I will attempt to get answers to the questions being raised.

Peter Rubec

Mr. Rubec,

Any information that you can obtain would be incredibly helpful. Thank you so much for looking into this.

Where should one look for the report that you mention above? I am also interested in knowing if the CITES import/export data for specific species and countries is available to the public. Is this data available on the CITES website?

Thanks again.

 

[PeterIMA]

Elysia,

I believe that the 2005 data is available on the CITES website. More recent data may not yet be available. I have not tried to access the web sites. I base my opinion on the information provided in the unpublished report I discussed.

Peter

 

[Anonymous]

I have no doubt that people do sometimes have problems with seahorses from those breeders also but overall that seems to be uncommon rather than the norm. I left OR off since they seem to be pricing their stock beyond the reach of the average hobbyist. Last time I looked at their site they were asking $900 for a red H. erectus. I got a brown erectus for $25 and added some red decor, now she is a red erectus but I don't think I will be able to get $900 for her.

Just to continue this conversation, Richard, might I ask a few specific questions about your post? I do notice that the first post ( and many others) on Seahorse.orgs Emergency forum is from a person who bought Draco Marine seahorses. I am having a hard time believing the theory that seahorses from the two breeders in Mollys OP are so much more hardy and healthy than fish from other breeders. I have found seahorses in general to be a delicate fish and I wonder if it can be proven that these 2 breeders have a proven track record of survivability than other breeders?

I think it is misleading to say that Ocean Rider is charging much more than the breeders Molly is promoting. I believe they have pricing very similar to SeahorseSource, DracoMarine and Marine Depot. Granted, they do play the marketing game that has been discussed here many times (a fool and his money are soon parted-see posts about "Special Edition" corals) but I would love to know where I can buy a H erectus for $25?

 

[Anonymous]

ple copied.

I don't know the details of why but apparently there are many within the seahorse community that do not have a high opinion of Dr. Vincent so that is probably something left to another thread.[/quote]

Can you look into this for me? I really think Vincent is one of the few heros we have in our world...

 

[bobimport]

I know that 200 red seahorses were shipped from Brazil to sir lanka and are raised in traps in the Ocean end of story

 

[RichardS]

ple copied.

I don't know the details of why but apparently there are many within the seahorse community that do not have a high opinion of Dr. Vincent so that is probably something left to another thread.

Can you look into this for me? I really think Vincent is one of the few heros we have in our world...[/quote]

Just ask on seahorse.org. I believe David Warland (David on sh.org)has had personal dealings with her concerning his seahorse farm in australia. He is not shy about giving his opinion of her.

 

[Anonymous]

The Warlands came back to Seahorse.org? Did they shut down Syngnathid.org?

Richard, do you know of any other fish that is so exploited as our wonderful seahorse? I know there are many aspects of our hobby that are extremely unappealing to most conscientious aquarists, but it seems like this genus really attracts....sorry I can't think of a good word here....purists?

For years, I've read on seahorse forums the advice to newbies: You must buy your seahorses from SeahorseSource or Draco Marine. Don't buy from the LFS 'cause your fish will be filled with parasites and die a miserable death. But, this really limits those who will try them, and makes the species so exclusive, you know?

We both know these fish breed much faster than rabbits. These fish could be the guppy of Marine Fish, a shining example of how our hobby can be self sustaining and not harmful to our delicate reefs. I think it is great that we can have these farms to show what can be done. Granted, we must find a way to rehab them after their trip from the South Pacific, to the wholesaler, to the LFS and then to a newbies tank. But, instead of thread after thread of what is being done wrong at ORA, CQuest and all the other breeding facilities, why not a few threads to support it? Why so much negativity for efforts to help improve our hobby?

 

[Elysia]

SeahorseWhisperer,
If you go to OR's website, you will see that they sell individual seahorses for up to $950.00 each. Most other breeders/hobbyist charge between $45-$80 per horse, depending on species and age. There was (may still be) a problem with customer service at OR as well.
Until the final horses were shipped out of from Draco, complaints were not heard about the health of the seahorses coming out of there.
As for A. Vincent, from what I have heard, she has been very anti-hobbyist/anti-breeder yet supports the breeding of seahorses for the TCM trade. I believe there are additional reasons, but this one is good enough for me.
I believe if you read all the threads on seahorse.org, you will see/have to agree that members are treated with the same level of respect and given thoughtful advice no matter where they have bought their seahorses. They suggest that one purchase their horses from a dedicated breeder like Seahorse Source, who will ship to you direct, as this limits the possible complications. The "exclusive"-ness of seahorses isn't because of the people who already own them, its because of the dedication necessary to keep them.
While it is true that seahorses will often breed readily in captivity, guppies are born basically being able to survive in the tank they are born in. This is not true of seahorses. It is not possible for the average hobbyist to raise the vast majority of fry that are born to their seahorses, despite valiant attempts. Even guppies are not self sustaining within the hobby -- they require commerical breeders.

I think it is great that we can have these farms to show what can be done. Granted, we must find a way to rehab them after their trip from the South Pacific, to the wholesaler, to the LFS and then to a newbies tank. But, instead of thread after thread of what is being done wrong at ORA, CQuest and all the other breeding facilities, why not a few threads to support it? Why so much negativity for efforts to help improve our hobby?

All we are trying to do is find out the truth. Then everyone can decide whether or not they want to support these 'farms' and whether or not these really are efforts to improve our hobby.