Questions regarding Asian sources of seahorses

[PeterIMA]

The main issue associated with culture of seahorses in SE Asia is whether there is the possibility of non-native species getting loose into the ocean from the net-pens or cages. From what I have been able to learn so far, it does look like there are non-native species of seahorses (Atlantic species) being reared in SE Asiia.

I am still trying to obtain information on whether the allegations being made about pen-culture are being conducted in Vietnam. Personally, I think seahorse culture should be encouraged, if it can provide an alternative livelihood for local people and increase their incomes. But, it needs to be done in a way that does not negatively impact the marine ecosystem. It could be done with on-shore facilities or on-shore raceways.

The other problem appears to be the way the seahorses are handled and shipped, which causes stress leading to high mortalities. There are also high mortalities of other types of MO fish especially from Vietnam. The problems can be rectified using methods recently developed by EASTI. EASTI is interested in helping for the benefit of the MO trade (including seahorse culture and transport).


Peter

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, "up to" $950 bucks. The hyping and exploitation of hobbyists has been discussed here many times. But, in my experience, the fish I got from OR were around the same price as the fish I got from Draco. But, the OR ones lived! And, my customer service was exactly opposite of yours. OR answered my questions, had a guarantee, while Draco charged my Visa twice.

Well, you and Molly seem to have the same views of Vincent and Project Seahorse. I still think she is a hero of our reefs.

So, if DracoMarine has gone out of business, and SeahorseSource has a waiting list, where are you "suggesting" people buy their fish? Will another preferred breeder pop up?

Peter, there are many who support what you do. I applaud any effort to take stress off the reefs. I wonder if it could be an issue with feeding? I've noticed my juveniles really take a downturn if they miss a days feeding. Then, it is hard to get them to eat (they kinda act like spoiled teenage girls). But, I wonder if the holding tanks have enough filtration to let the fish get a few meals in between trips from wholesaler to dealer to LFS?

 

[Anonymous]

The culturing of MO is expensive, and really expensive to do on a commercial level. It makes it even harder if the market is for a specialized animal like seahorses. A small breeder/hobbyist doing it for mostly for fun will charge less than the animals actually cost to produce, while a business doing it has to make a profit. No profit, no business, and most people doing it for fun will eventually tire of losing money. However, even people who say they care are still too concerned with saving money, and would often rather buy a cheaper animal over an expensive animal. CB animals won't be inexpensive until they are bred on a large scale, and that won't happen unless people buy them for what they are actually worth to produce.

 

[Anonymous]

Holy CARP. I had no idea captive bred seahorses were so expensive. We used to breed them like weeds.

 

[Anonymous]

They're not, guys! They are like "The Special Edition" corals that sell for outrageous prices. You can get a seahorse from the LFS for $25 in SLC.

 

[Anonymous]

However, even people who say they care are still too concerned with saving money, and would often rather buy a cheaper animal over an expensive animal.

Unfortunately, this is a short-sighted strategy as many wild-caught seahorses will never make the transition from live food (ghost shrimp, pods, live brine shrimp) to frozen foods, and therefor will be much more expensive to maintain in the long run. Even if one hatches one's own brine shrimp, a seahorse fed exclusively on brine shrimp will not be getting the proper nutrition and will live a much shorter, less healthy life.

 

[Anonymous]

Holy CARP. I had no idea captive bred seahorses were so expensive. We used to breed them like weeds.

And because you were AZA you could only give/sell them to other AZA!

There are lots that range from 75 to 225 on OR's site. 279 for a pair, eating frozen, with some extras and shipping isn't such a bad deal.

 

[Anonymous]

However, even people who say they care are still too concerned with saving money, and would often rather buy a cheaper animal over an expensive animal.

Unfortunately, this is a short-sighted strategy as many wild-caught seahorses will never make the transition from live food (ghost shrimp, pods, live brine shrimp) to frozen foods, and therefor will be much more expensive to maintain in the long run. Even if one hatches one's own brine shrimp, a seahorse fed exclusively on brine shrimp will not be getting the proper nutrition and will live a much shorter, less healthy life.

Absolutely! People don't think long term in general in the hobby. Which is really too bad - 'specially if we want to move toward CB animals.

I am seeing the same thing with cuttlefish. It seems the market might be willing to pay more now, so when the eggs pop we'll see if that pans out. I am skeptical.

 

[Elysia]

However, even people who say they care are still too concerned with saving money, and would often rather buy a cheaper animal over an expensive animal.

I don't think that this is a completely fair statement.

I think the main reason why people still purchase seahorses from LFS not knowing their origins has more to do with general ignorance than it does with trying to save a buck.

As for Ocean Rider, the last time I checked H. erectus were either $150.00 or $185.00 each. I have never read anything saying that Ocean Rider's horses are better than Seahorse Source's, but Seahorse Source sells their H. erectus for less, and for a lot of people, the shipping time will be shorter having the horses come from FL rather than HI. So what is wrong with someone chosing Seahorse Source over Ocean Rider? (Not to mention better general business practices and customer service, IMO.)

SeahorseWhisperer, I already mentioned the reason why it is suggested that hobbyists purchase from a dedicated breeder. Animals from a dedicated breeder are more likely to be parasite free than wild caught animals and will be used to having people near them. Additionally, most bred animals will be weaned onto frozen food and be used to some kind of containment. Often, hobbyists can purchase seahorses directly from these breeders thereby foregoing the potential exposure to pathogens in the holding systems of an exporter/importer/wholesaler/LFS, as well as minimize the stress the animal is under while being contained in these systems and shipped between them. There are people who not only care enough about the seahorses that they will one day own that they will pay more for them, they will also wait a month or more until a respected breeder has the animals available.

Back to the topic at hand, I agree that it is very important to know whether or not non-native seahorse species are being raised in net pens in the ocean in Asia as this can have a profound affect on the native seahorse population. It will also help hobbyists to know if problems are occurring on the breeding side or the shipping/wholesale side of the supply chain, and knowledge is power. The answer may explain why some horses seem to be fine, while other seem to die for no reason. Perhaps something can be done to improve the health of all seahorses imported, or maybe it will come down to warning hobbyists not to purchase certain horses. However, until we know the situation behind their rearing, it will be next to impossible to fit the pieces together and make a sound judgement.

 

[PeterIMA]

Elysia, I think that the information provided by the anonymous poster (at the beginning of this thread) about pen-culture in SE Asia is accurate (based on several anonymous sources I contacted).

Some on this thread support tank-bred seahorses provided by US suppliers. As discussed, the downside is the costs involved in producing the fish.

The issues pertaining to high mortality due to bad handling and shipping practices are not just associated with seahorses. Vietnam has a particularly bad reputation for high mortality on almost all marine species exported. So, if you have the bucks buy from American breeders. But, I think that the handling and transport problems for seahorses from SE Asian breeders can be solved to produce quality seahorses for a lower price that more hobbyists can afford.

 

[Anonymous]

I am seeing the same thing with cuttlefish. It seems the market might be willing to pay more now, so when the eggs pop we'll see if that pans out. I am skeptical.

How many ya got in this batch?

 

[Anonymous]

Holy CARP. I had no idea captive bred seahorses were so expensive. We used to breed them like weeds.

And because you were AZA you could only give/sell them to other AZA!

Yup. And they are nasty little critters anyway. Loaded with myco. You wouldn't want to stick your hand in a seahorse tank with a cut.

 

[Anonymous]

However, even people who say they care are still too concerned with saving money, and would often rather buy a cheaper animal over an expensive animal.

Unfortunately, this is a short-sighted strategy as many wild-caught seahorses will never make the transition from live food (ghost shrimp, pods, live brine shrimp) to frozen foods, and therefor will be much more expensive to maintain in the long run. Even if one hatches one's own brine shrimp, a seahorse fed exclusively on brine shrimp will not be getting the proper nutrition and will live a much shorter, less healthy life.

I think you are very right about feeding artemia to seahorses, and it being an inadequate food source. But, this is what home breeders without access to large amounts of seahorse fry food have to feed their fry. Todd Gardner, speaker and curator, researched his theory about fry nutrition and wrote an in depth paper and talk about it. He stated that the fry will have inadequate immune systems when fed on artemia, even with the best enrichments available.

Net penned maricultured fish seem to me to be the best of both worlds: a fish raised on it's natural diet that has already been trained to eat frozen food.

 

[Anonymous]

double.

 

[Anonymous]

Net penned maricultured fish seem to me to be the best of both worlds: a fish raised on it's natural diet that has already been trained to eat frozen food.

Except for the risks — pathogens, parasites and stress from multiple rounds of shipping — which are substantial.

 

[Anonymous]

double.

I believe the proper term is "Milzed" :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

I am seeing the same thing with cuttlefish. It seems the market might be willing to pay more now, so when the eggs pop we'll see if that pans out. I am skeptical.

How many ya got in this batch?

I have six or so clutches, with only 1 actual hatch. I have split the group into 3 pairs so we'll see.

I just sent you a pm.

 

[Elysia]

Elysia, I think that the information provided by the anonymous poster (at the beginning of this thread) about pen-culture in SE Asia is accurate (based on several anonymous sources I contacted).

Some on this thread support tank-bred seahorses provided by US suppliers. As discussed, the downside is the costs involved in producing the fish.

The issues pertaining to high mortality due to bad handling and shipping practices are not just associated with seahorses. Vietnam has a particularly bad reputation for high mortality on almost all marine species exported. So, if you have the bucks buy from American breeders. But, I think that the handling and transport problems for seahorses from SE Asian breeders can be solved to produce quality seahorses for a lower price that more hobbyists can afford.

Thank you for looking into this; this is unfortunate news if it is indeed the case, which I am now assuming it is. Raising non-native species in net pens in the ocean is troubling -- not only are the seahorses that are being raised of questionable health (not that this is of concern to the person doing the raising, as the horses are mostly going to the Traditional Chinese Medicine trade) but the consequences could be disastrous for the native seahorse species. Is this happening only in Vietnam, or elsewhere as well? Do you have any idea if the companies that claim to be breeding their seahorses in tanks and ponds overseas are, in fact, doing so?

I agree that US bred and raised seahorses are the way to go; in fact, in general I support maricultured animals for this hobby. When I have the option to do so, I purchase maricultured animals rather than wild caught animals. It has been my experience that these animals have fared better in my tanks, and this has more than made up for their price. And as previously mentioned, every breeder charges something different, and it can be adventageous to shop around.

So I have another question. I am aware of a aquaculture facility that breeds H. erectus. They only sell to wholesellers, so I do not have the option of buying directly from them. One of the well regarded LA wholesellers that my LFS happens to buy from does business with this aquaculture facility. I have no idea if this wholeseller has dedicated systems for aquacultured animals, however.

I believe the source is good, and I can pick them up from the LFS as soon as they get the box from the wholeseller. So my question is, do you think that the seahorses will be mixed at the wholesellers? (or even be in water that circulated through the wild caught tanks?) I assume this could jepordize their health, and I do not want that. Should I consider these American bred horses a no-go simply because they have to go through the wholesaler's system? Should this be a concern with any aquacultured animal?

 

[Anonymous]

double.

I believe the proper term is "Milzed" :wink:

I thought "Milzed" was for deleting content you changed your mind about, not deleting a double post. I must go research my RDO forum history ....

 

[Anonymous]

double.

I believe the proper term is "Milzed" :wink:

I thought "Milzed" was for deleting content you changed your mind about, not deleting a double post. I must go research my RDO forum history ....

Ignore the Sump poser. You're correct.