Gramma loreto introductions to the mainland?

[jhemdal1]

All,

About 30 years ago, a collector in Florida told me about people releasing Royal Grammas into coastal Florida waters in an attempt to build populations that could then be exploited by local divers (as opposed to running out to Cay Sal bank or importing them from Haiti).
In a recent Florida Dept. of Agriculture report, they concluded that the presence of that species in coastal Florida waters is the result of a natural range extension. I'm having a difficult time accepting that. The Florida reefs are not what they once were, why would a fish with pretty specific needs suddenly extend its range into that perturbed habitat when it didn't do so for thousands of years before, when things were more pristine? O.K., somebody is going to say its due to global warming, but I'm not convinced that low water temperature is a limiting factor for these fish, more so limited habitat such as eroded Montastrea heads, etc. I believe that the fish that are being seen are relicts of introduction attempts....

Thoughts?

Jay

 

[IconicAquariums]

Thoughts?

Wait a few more years for the Lionfish to bring the population back down naturally?

 

[spawner]

One would think that you could figure this issue out with the proper set of genetic markers. At least you would be able to get a good idea if it was a range extension or not. That of course would all be based on probability and not 100% certainty. It's really a closed system down there. There is not that much gene flow in or out for many species. Few species are able to cross the stream well enough to have mixed populations. Same would be true for the pygmy angels as well. They would have always been there or been deeper, or they might have been transfered. You'd have to get input from Forrest Young and Pete Kehole. They have been diving the deep reefs for decades.

 

[jhemdal1]

spawner,

While a genetic analysis would probably be the way to go, that just isn't going to happen because the potential environmental impact is so small. So what we have is conjecture - on both sides, with my point being that since somebody admitted to me that translocations had taken place, in my mind, that increases the chance that the fish arrived through that pathway.
The same report indicted home aquarist releases of outsized, unwanted fish as the primary reason for the presence of other species noted in the area by Semmens et-al in 2004. My problem with that is that the list includes things like imperator angels, moorish idols, purple tangs, etc. that are simply not a problem to find homes for. Again, I suspect either dive operators or fish wholesalers as being behind those releases....


Jay

 

[brandonberry]

If you think it is crazy to see them in Florida, I've caught them in NC. The Florida reefs are like paradise for them compared to our shipwrecks and cochina reefs. I'm not sure about down there, but up here the fish we get are dependent on the currents and I'm assuming the timing of the spawning to them. Some years we may get a lot of juv tangs. Other years we get none, but get a lot of juv angels. Hurricanes always seem to drive in some cool stuff too. I would think you all would get similar effects from Hurricanes disrupting the natural currents.

 

[jhemdal1]

brandonberry,

I wouldn't be surprised to see them there - their larva travel the Gulf Stream all the way up to Bermuda, so they must pass right over those reefs on the way. I guess the obstacle for them is swimming across the current - thus they can't seem to make it from Bimini to Fowey Rocks off Miami, what is that, like 30 miles?


Jay

 

[PeterIMA]

While I have no knowledge concerning whether or not Royal Grammas were introduced or are of natural occurrence in the Florida Keys, I would appreciate receiving information concerning sightings indicating that exotic species of fish are reproducing off Florida or elsewhere in the Atlantic. There is a published paper of about 14 species of exotic (from other oceans) MO fish found off Palm Beach. So far as I know, the only exotic species that has been documented to be reproducing and spreading its geographic range is the Pacific lionfish.

Would the person commenting on tangs being found off of NC identify the species involved? There are tang species native to the Atlantic. So, their presence is not of concern. If there is evidence of Pacific, Red Sea, or Indian Ocean species reproducing and spreading their range in the Atlantic Ocean, it should be reported.

Sincerely,
Peter Rubec, Ph.D.
Florida Fish & Wildlife Conservation Commission

 

[brandonberry]

I was referring to royal grammas in NC. The only invasive fish I am aware of off our coast is the lionfish. We do however have many non-native invertebrates including tunicates, sea stars, sea roaches, barnacles, etc. To my knowledge, most of these hitchhiked in on ships and have nothing to do with aquarium releases.

 

[bobimport]

I do know of someone releasing royals in the Keys about 20 years ago. He bought 300 from me and released them. Never to be seen again. I don't think they ever established a breeding population. Really reports that they have been seen in NC. Wow How many?

 

[brandonberry]

I only caught one once on one of the deeper wrecks. I'm sure if there was one there were probably more where that came from though. I'll probably do a lot more deep dives this summer, so if anyone is interested, I'd be glad to report if I see more. We get all kinds of tropicals here, especially in late summer. Apparently their larvae ride the Gulf Stream up and then settle down on the wrecks and the hard bottom reefs.

I'm sure everyone is aware of our huge lionfish population by now. Some of my friends at the dive shop tell me it is not uncommon to see a dozen or more lionfish on one wreck now. If it weren't for the 2 hour boat ride and having to decompress them from 90ft they might be worth collecting to sell.