two missing in Tonga fish trade

[Ret_Talbot]

Are there any updates n this situation? I have been following this thread and the others that are related to Tonga and the plight of the collectors there. What, in your opinion, should the hobbyist know about what's going on in Tonga, and how might that affect their buying decisions? How can hobbyists become involved in a manner that supports a robust and sustainable industry and respects local ecosytems and the local socio-economic structures that depend on them? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Fish_dave]

The situation in Tonga as discussed in this thread is only happening with one or two of the Tonga exporters. To say that it is a general Tonga problem will hurt the exporters that are not part of the problem. There are Tongan exporters who do not require deep diving or a quota of hard to collect animals from their divers. We should be careful about not implicating Tonga the country with the practices of a couple of the exporters.

Dave

 

[Ret_Talbot]

The situation in Tonga as discussed in this thread is only happening with one or two of the Tonga exporters. To say that it is a general Tonga problem will hurt the exporters that are not part of the problem. There are Tongan exporters who do not require deep diving or a quota of hard to collect animals from their divers. We should be careful about not implicating Tonga the country with the practices of a couple of the exporters.

Dave

While I certainly appreciate (and agree) with what you are saying, it does seem fair--at least on some level--to extrapolate some generalities if these practices continue to occur within Tonga. Regardless, how can your comment be translated into a more educator consumer on the wholesale and resale end of the hobby?

 

[Fish_dave]

I do not know how you would go about educating people about poor practices in Tonga without hurting the entire trade there. It has happened with Philippines. I hate to see a country black listed by hobbyists due to the actions of one or two poor exporters.

Dave

 

[Ret_Talbot]

I do not know how you would go about educating people about poor practices in Tonga without hurting the entire trade there. It has happened with Philippines. I hate to see a country black listed by hobbyists due to the actions of one or two poor exporters.

Dave

I agree with that sentiment. What about "black listing" the one or two poor exporters?

 

[Fish_dave]

I think that most importers know who the exporters in question are. If it even matters to the importer then they will have stopped doing business with them already. I am not sure that it would do any good to release the name to hobbyists, that would not be information that a hobbyist would be able to follow back to the source to know where their fish came from. If there was a black list then the importers would claim that their fish did not come from black listed exporters and it would be very difficult for even retailers never mind hobbyists to prove differently.

Dave

 

[Ret_Talbot]

I think that most importers know who the exporters in question are. If it even matters to the importer then they will have stopped doing business with them already. I am not sure that it would do any good to release the name to hobbyists, that would not be information that a hobbyist would be able to follow back to the source to know where their fish came from. If there was a black list then the importers would claim that their fish did not come from black listed exporters and it would be very difficult for even retailers never mind hobbyists to prove differently.

Dave

I do appreciate the logistical issues involved, and I was half-joking about black listing, but I do think that, on a level, more transparency would help. Exporters who subscribe to illegal and unethical practices harm the industry in the long-term. In turn, importers that support said exporters are equally culpable. Down the chain of custody it goes until we reach the customer, who, albeit unknowingly, are also guilty. If I were a hobbyists who found out that I was transitively supporting an exporter that was harming the trade, I'd be pissed. Wouldn't you?

Of course this is problematic because it sounds like I am now advocating certification of the chain of custody, and that's a can of worms I do not want to open here. The bottom line is that a sustainable, robust industry will need to find a way to force the "bad actors" from the equation. My wife just stopped buying clothing from a company whose supplier, it was publically revealed, was using sweat shop labour. Is that so different?

Of course I'm approaching all this as a writer who creates content for various audiences within the marine aquarium industry, and when this Tonga story keeps popping up (just like a plethora of other stories), it gets my attention. Thanks again, Dave. I always appreciate your well-reasoned and thoughtful input.

 

[clarionreef]

The story didn't pop up.
Reality did. The story just got belatedly reported to the chagrin of embarrassed importers who want to keep buying fish and corals regardless.
This stuff is inconvenient like the cyanide thing was/is. But the fact that it exists is a real issue. Whats with the impulse to cover it up?


Catastrophe has happened to three fish people there in the past 9 months.
Three companies [ not 2] have a hand in the cold blooded mis- management of people in Tonga out of 5 companies present.

This year 3 Tongan exporters have had a hand in;

1. Pressuring divers to death dealing depths, killing one and causing others to resign.
2. Two missing boats w/ 2 missing boatmen....and divers who had to swim to shore 3-4 hours away. [ still a mystery...boatmen still missing]
3. Cashing in, denying and withholding return tickets home.
4. Holding divers for 2 years against their will, refusing visits home.
5. Withholding salaries for 3 months and when divers resign, losing all pay.
6. Refusing to get work permits as promised for fishers in order to keep them off balance and illegal in case disputes arise.

Feeling embarrassed for what these people have done is a misplaced emotion.
Hobbyists were made aware because the business folks chose silence. This wasn't a strategy to spark some hobbyists initiative [ not viable anyway ] but a punishment.
I for one don't care how it looks. But I do care how it is.

Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Were the boatmen Tongan?

 

[clarionreef]

One was and one was Vanuatuan...but married locally to a Tongan.
He was Tony....remember Tony?
He was soft spoken, spoke good English and tallied all the fishes in the boxing and packing.
He was also a boatman for many years, was very capable and also a good swimmer/diver.
Losing Tony still makes no sense. I just talked to the diver who came up to find no Tony and no boat, Jose. They are all totally befudled on this.
Jose was questioned by the police and is finally home now and will never go back to Tonga.
In his case, he was owed 3 months and a plane ticket. He went home after a year w/ no money or gifts for his kids. Hes just glad to have escaped.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

I was worried it was Tony. That makes me quite sad, and very confused.

 

[clarionreef]

Rich,
I hope still hes just missing somehow...
He was a family guy...and friend to the divers that were down.
Everyone liked him.
An accident with no debris...sinking or floating. Two boats vanished at the same time....
All notions suggested make no sense.
Steve

 

[Fish_dave]

Steve,

If it is three of the exporters involved and not one or two then maybe it would be good to throw the names out here. I am not even sure who is still in business there now, I deal with two exporters neither of which does much fish trade. Walt's place is small and I do not think that they even use compressed air much to dive, most of their fish are shallow water fish caught using a snorkel. Lavinia does not even deal in fish or does very little with fish. I know that Dateline is still shipping (but thought that he had slowed down on fish mybe not ? ) and there is the left overs of what was Coral Kingdom and whatever Jayhawk morphed into. I assumed that the problems were mostly with Jayhawk and whatever the Coral Kingdom turned into. If you think that it would be helpful then drop the dime on them.

My statement about not blacklisting them had nothing to do with hiding who they are but was the fact that the importers bringing in fish from the problem exporters will claim that they do not import from the problem exporters. It is just not traceable by the average hobbyist. It will be like the Philippines has been for years "O' I don't bring in fish from the guys that use cyanide, I only buy from the clean exporters." How many times have you heard that ? It is pretty hard to trace anything back through the convoluted mess that Philippine importing is to know where the fish did come from and if there was any possibility that they did come from the net collectors. Philippines ended up being branded as cyanide fish even though there were some clean fish available from there. I would rather not see the same thing happen with Tonga when there are exporters there that are not a part of this problem.

Dave

 

[Ret_Talbot]

Dave,

I can totally appreciate what you are saying, and I know there are some really good people on Tonga. I would not want to see them hurt. You are convinced that all importers buying from these questionable exporters know that the exporters are shady/unethical/illegal?

 

[naesco]

Responsible importers would never deal with thast exporter.
Name the the outfit. Expose them.

Than, let us find out which US importers importers continue to deal with them.

Than let't expose those importers as well.

With cyanide, and all the other issues faced by industry and our hobby, it suprises me that that industry does not have the common sense to blacklist bad outfits. If you don't, they just continue on with their business.

Wayne

 

[Ret_Talbot]

Steve,

If it is three of the exporters involved and not one or two then maybe it would be good to throw the names out here. I am not even sure who is still in business there now, I deal with two exporters neither of which does much fish trade. Walt's place is small and I do not think that they even use compressed air much to dive, most of their fish are shallow water fish caught using a snorkel. Lavinia does not even deal in fish or does very little with fish. I know that Dateline is still shipping (but thought that he had slowed down on fish mybe not ? ) and there is the left overs of what was Coral Kingdom and whatever Jayhawk morphed into. I assumed that the problems were mostly with Jayhawk and whatever the Coral Kingdom turned into. If you think that it would be helpful then drop the dime on them.

Dave

What of Ocean 2000?

 

[Fish_dave]

Ocean 2000 is in Fiji, that is unless someone in Tonga has taken on that name also. Tai Hancock and Nemani owned Ocean 2000 in Fiji.

Now I am not so sure that all importers would know who is involved with these practices as I thought of only two that I knew were treating Philippino divers this way. That is why I would invite Steve to make it public if he thinks that it would help. I would guess that the importers involved with the ones that I know of would rather turn a blind eye to how the fish were produced in order to receive the high demand fish that they want. The last time I had Ventralis anthias on my list was 3 years ago when Chip Boyle was collecting them. It would be interesting to see how many Ventralis anthias from Tonga show up on wholesale lists presently.

Dave

 

[Ret_Talbot]

Now I am not so sure that all importers would know who is involved with these practices as I thought of only two that I knew were treating Philippino divers this way. That is why I would invite Steve to make it public if he thinks that it would help. I would guess that the importers involved with the ones that I know of would rather turn a blind eye to how the fish were produced in order to receive the high demand fish that they want. The last time I had Ventralis anthias on my list was 3 years ago when Chip Boyle was collecting them. It would be interesting to see how many Ventralis anthias from Tonga show up on wholesale lists presently.

Dave

According to my information, the only ventralis that have recently come through L.A. are going to one wholesaler, and they are not coming from Tonga. Of course my info could be off, as I'm sure memories and paperwork are not always 100% accurate.

 

[Anonymous]

Now I am not so sure that all importers would know who is involved with these practices as I thought of only two that I knew were treating Philippino divers this way. That is why I would invite Steve to make it public if he thinks that it would help. I would guess that the importers involved with the ones that I know of would rather turn a blind eye to how the fish were produced in order to receive the high demand fish that they want. The last time I had Ventralis anthias on my list was 3 years ago when Chip Boyle was collecting them. It would be interesting to see how many Ventralis anthias from Tonga show up on wholesale lists presently.

Dave

According to my information, the only ventralis that have recently come through L.A. are going to one wholesaler, and they are not coming from Tonga. Of course my info could be off, as I'm sure memories and paperwork are not always 100% accurate.

But last year (and aerlier this year in fact) and several proceeding it ventralis flowed out of Tonga like no ones business. It's no surprise you are not seeing Tongan ones right now, the divers don't want to go that deep for obvious reasons

 

[Anonymous]

Now I am not so sure that all importers would know who is involved with these practices as I thought of only two that I knew were treating Philippino divers this way. That is why I would invite Steve to make it public if he thinks that it would help. I would guess that the importers involved with the ones that I know of would rather turn a blind eye to how the fish were produced in order to receive the high demand fish that they want. The last time I had Ventralis anthias on my list was 3 years ago when Chip Boyle was collecting them. It would be interesting to see how many Ventralis anthias from Tonga show up on wholesale lists presently.

Dave

According to my information, the only ventralis that have recently come through L.A. are going to one wholesaler, and they are not coming from Tonga. Of course my info could be off, as I'm sure memories and paperwork are not always 100% accurate.

But last year (and aerlier this year in fact) and several proceeding it ventralis flowed out of Tonga like no ones business. It's no surprise you are not seeing Tongan ones right now, the divers don't want to go that deep for obvious reasons

What depth do they come from?