Secret Suppliers
- Thread starter Ret_Talbot
- Start date
I only deal with stateside wholesalers - for clarity.
My practice of keeping my sources to myself is not unique. Many people in many industries consider this sort of thing a "trade secret" and don't share info with their peers, whether they be near or far.
While it's true that a store 1000 miles from me (or even 100 miles from me) may not be competing for the consumer's dollar, we would end up competing with each other for the supplier's offerings. We both order the show coral that appears on the list, and only one of us gets it. A simplified example, but a valid one nonetheless. All livestock is not the same or equal. Mass produced hard goods are one thing, livestock is a whole other animal - literally.
The suppliers I use aren't secret insofar as anyone can find them - they are out there with all the rest, they advertise, they solicit new customers (other stores) and anyone here could easily find them and buy from them - so it's not like there's any cloak and dagger drama associated with them. Last time I spoke with them, I wasn't their only customer either (although they treat me like I'm their only customer!) so it's not my "job" to increase their customer base. That may sound harsh, but it's not meant to be, it's just a matter of fact. Now... if that supplier gives my name to a prospective client of theirs, for a customer reference, yep, they can call me up and I'll give them a glowing review. This is one of the things I did when seeking out these suppliers - one offered up a couple of references and I made the calls. After that I asked for client references and followed up on my own. Just sensible business research that very few people actually do due diligence on.
I had to learn from trial and error, so what's wrong with others finding their suppliers that way too?
Besides, different peoples' definition of a "great" supplier varies. Some (most?) want everything available, all the time, at the cheapest price. If that's what they are looking for, then my info would likely be useless to them, because my definition puts higher priority on the quality of the specimens (health, ethical collection practices to the best of my knowledge) and less on how much they cost. I'd rather pay a bit more for something that is more likely to live, and less likely to have been collected in a harmful manner, than something that got juiced and cost less than what everyone else is selling for. That's just me.
Nobody is preventing those suppliers from finding new customers. I don't ask for or demand exclusivity, and I don't expect it either. The store down the road is free to order from those same suppliers, as the wholesaler is free to court that store's business.
I typically don't ask other store owners who they order from because I consider it bad manners to expect them to give up their trade secrets. I'm not alone in being low-key about mentioning who my suppliers are, very few volunteer where they are getting their stuff from. IME the only ones that usually do are using the big box wholesalers so there's no "fear" of losing out because they all have "everything, all the time". It's actually kind of funny to be in a store full of what I would consider substandard livestock, and have the owner/manager boast about their supplier... oh if only they knew! Now having said that, it could well be that the specimens arrived in great condition and if the husbandry practices of the shop stink, well even the nicest stuff is going to decline and fast... I was in FL this past weekend and we went into a LFS and I was appalled with what I saw. The guy had a few really nice fish and a few very nice corals but the rest were half dead, mostly dead or looking like they'd soon be dead... even the best supplier in the world doesn't matter if you don't take care of them once they arrive.
Been there, done that with huge suppliers (when I first opened and didn't know any better because the store I worked at used the big boxes), and often I found that the little store gets the dregs in the big pool of customers at a big box. So I prefer to spend my livestock dollars with entities that give a damn about me as a client, as well as where their specimens come from. I'm a small shop so I don't have the big buying power that a large outfit has. Who are you going to disappoint? The larger store that spends $100K+ a year with you, or the small one that maybe spends $25K with you?
So my suppliers are not "under the radar" garage entities, they are legitimate suppliers that anybody with a business license to sell aquatic organisms can find and purchase from. I do know of some of those under-the-radar entities, or entities that are questionable, and there's always somebody offering to "snag a few things" for me on their trip someplace, and on those I always decline and remind them of the legal issues that can arise from that. Some folks think they can just help themselves to whatever they find, wherever they may be.
Since I have no firsthand experience with those that I believe to be less than legitimate, I can't blow any whistle without putting myself at risk. All I can do is conduct my own business in an above-board and legal way.
I don't like those that operate in a questionable fashion, but there's little I can do about it and as long as there are stores (online or brick and mortar) that see it as OK to do business that way, they will continue to exist until somebody makes it stop. The current "inspection" process at least in my state isn't going to do that. I recently underwent my annual Department of Agriculture inspection and the inspector asked to "see" invoices... I held up the file that contains them and opened it and she checked off that box on the inspection report. Didn't look at the invoice, or see if the specimens itemized matched those in my tanks, so it seems that it's pretty easy to fudge...but again I digress.
I have enough to do every day without becoming the wholesaler police.
And if some of you find it amusing or petty or not nice because I'm not sharing the knowledge that has taken me 9 years to accumulate, I'm OK with that.
Jenn
My practice of keeping my sources to myself is not unique. Many people in many industries consider this sort of thing a "trade secret" and don't share info with their peers, whether they be near or far.
While it's true that a store 1000 miles from me (or even 100 miles from me) may not be competing for the consumer's dollar, we would end up competing with each other for the supplier's offerings. We both order the show coral that appears on the list, and only one of us gets it. A simplified example, but a valid one nonetheless. All livestock is not the same or equal. Mass produced hard goods are one thing, livestock is a whole other animal - literally.
The suppliers I use aren't secret insofar as anyone can find them - they are out there with all the rest, they advertise, they solicit new customers (other stores) and anyone here could easily find them and buy from them - so it's not like there's any cloak and dagger drama associated with them. Last time I spoke with them, I wasn't their only customer either (although they treat me like I'm their only customer!) so it's not my "job" to increase their customer base. That may sound harsh, but it's not meant to be, it's just a matter of fact. Now... if that supplier gives my name to a prospective client of theirs, for a customer reference, yep, they can call me up and I'll give them a glowing review. This is one of the things I did when seeking out these suppliers - one offered up a couple of references and I made the calls. After that I asked for client references and followed up on my own. Just sensible business research that very few people actually do due diligence on.
I had to learn from trial and error, so what's wrong with others finding their suppliers that way too?
Besides, different peoples' definition of a "great" supplier varies. Some (most?) want everything available, all the time, at the cheapest price. If that's what they are looking for, then my info would likely be useless to them, because my definition puts higher priority on the quality of the specimens (health, ethical collection practices to the best of my knowledge) and less on how much they cost. I'd rather pay a bit more for something that is more likely to live, and less likely to have been collected in a harmful manner, than something that got juiced and cost less than what everyone else is selling for. That's just me.
Nobody is preventing those suppliers from finding new customers. I don't ask for or demand exclusivity, and I don't expect it either. The store down the road is free to order from those same suppliers, as the wholesaler is free to court that store's business.
I typically don't ask other store owners who they order from because I consider it bad manners to expect them to give up their trade secrets. I'm not alone in being low-key about mentioning who my suppliers are, very few volunteer where they are getting their stuff from. IME the only ones that usually do are using the big box wholesalers so there's no "fear" of losing out because they all have "everything, all the time". It's actually kind of funny to be in a store full of what I would consider substandard livestock, and have the owner/manager boast about their supplier... oh if only they knew! Now having said that, it could well be that the specimens arrived in great condition and if the husbandry practices of the shop stink, well even the nicest stuff is going to decline and fast... I was in FL this past weekend and we went into a LFS and I was appalled with what I saw. The guy had a few really nice fish and a few very nice corals but the rest were half dead, mostly dead or looking like they'd soon be dead... even the best supplier in the world doesn't matter if you don't take care of them once they arrive.
Been there, done that with huge suppliers (when I first opened and didn't know any better because the store I worked at used the big boxes), and often I found that the little store gets the dregs in the big pool of customers at a big box. So I prefer to spend my livestock dollars with entities that give a damn about me as a client, as well as where their specimens come from. I'm a small shop so I don't have the big buying power that a large outfit has. Who are you going to disappoint? The larger store that spends $100K+ a year with you, or the small one that maybe spends $25K with you?
So my suppliers are not "under the radar" garage entities, they are legitimate suppliers that anybody with a business license to sell aquatic organisms can find and purchase from. I do know of some of those under-the-radar entities, or entities that are questionable, and there's always somebody offering to "snag a few things" for me on their trip someplace, and on those I always decline and remind them of the legal issues that can arise from that. Some folks think they can just help themselves to whatever they find, wherever they may be.
Since I have no firsthand experience with those that I believe to be less than legitimate, I can't blow any whistle without putting myself at risk. All I can do is conduct my own business in an above-board and legal way.
I don't like those that operate in a questionable fashion, but there's little I can do about it and as long as there are stores (online or brick and mortar) that see it as OK to do business that way, they will continue to exist until somebody makes it stop. The current "inspection" process at least in my state isn't going to do that. I recently underwent my annual Department of Agriculture inspection and the inspector asked to "see" invoices... I held up the file that contains them and opened it and she checked off that box on the inspection report. Didn't look at the invoice, or see if the specimens itemized matched those in my tanks, so it seems that it's pretty easy to fudge...but again I digress.
I have enough to do every day without becoming the wholesaler police.
And if some of you find it amusing or petty or not nice because I'm not sharing the knowledge that has taken me 9 years to accumulate, I'm OK with that.
Jenn
Well if something is bad for the animals, it's the entities doing it that's the problem (ie bad wholesalers), not me. Ditto for crappy stores that get great stuff and don't house it or care for it right. Ditto for crappy hobbyists...
You're giving me credit for a lot more power than I deserve. I don't have any power, I'm just a small store doing my best to survive in a tough economy.
I am doing what *I* can to avoid being bad to the animals, by choosing my suppliers carefully (again my criteria might be different than somebody else's - and there may be "better" suppliers out there that I haven't found yet because I don't have unlimited funds to try every single one out there!).
I try to avoid being "bad to the animals" by educating my customers.
I try to avoid being "bad to the animals" by taking care of them while they are in my custody.
I try to avoid being "bad to the animals" by choosing suppliers whom I believe are doing things the right way, and it results in fewer mortalities, fewer diseased specimens (treating those who do get sick).
I'm doing my part, but I am only one person, in one small shop. That is all that is in my power to do. If everyone held themselves to the same standards, the dynamics in the industry would change - but as we've seen over the years, the vast majority don't ask, don't tell or worse, don't care.
Don't look at me and my suppliers to save the world - look at those who aren't doing their part - and there are some (plenty?) out there.
Jenn
You're giving me credit for a lot more power than I deserve. I don't have any power, I'm just a small store doing my best to survive in a tough economy.
I am doing what *I* can to avoid being bad to the animals, by choosing my suppliers carefully (again my criteria might be different than somebody else's - and there may be "better" suppliers out there that I haven't found yet because I don't have unlimited funds to try every single one out there!).
I try to avoid being "bad to the animals" by educating my customers.
I try to avoid being "bad to the animals" by taking care of them while they are in my custody.
I try to avoid being "bad to the animals" by choosing suppliers whom I believe are doing things the right way, and it results in fewer mortalities, fewer diseased specimens (treating those who do get sick).
I'm doing my part, but I am only one person, in one small shop. That is all that is in my power to do. If everyone held themselves to the same standards, the dynamics in the industry would change - but as we've seen over the years, the vast majority don't ask, don't tell or worse, don't care.
Don't look at me and my suppliers to save the world - look at those who aren't doing their part - and there are some (plenty?) out there.
Jenn
Well you could share the bad experiences and thus notify others away from bad suppliers without giving up the secret suppliers.
On the flip side by not notifying people who your good suppliers are you might end up loosing them, best to drive customers to the good ones to support them and ensure their survival much like I would expect your customers to do for you. How would you like it if your best customers were in Petco refering people to your competition on the excuse that they did not want to compete for your corals, typically they would more likely tell people to get to your store ASAP and leave the death zone........... I think the notion of competing for livestock is not true, if you are a good customer and you refer people to them and increase their business they will inturn bring in more stock, and probably give you some nicer stuff since you help them grow. Just my 2 cents.
On the flip side by not notifying people who your good suppliers are you might end up loosing them, best to drive customers to the good ones to support them and ensure their survival much like I would expect your customers to do for you. How would you like it if your best customers were in Petco refering people to your competition on the excuse that they did not want to compete for your corals, typically they would more likely tell people to get to your store ASAP and leave the death zone........... I think the notion of competing for livestock is not true, if you are a good customer and you refer people to them and increase their business they will inturn bring in more stock, and probably give you some nicer stuff since you help them grow. Just my 2 cents.
I can understand your point of view 100% JennM.
If I had a wholesaler that was getting me above average stuff I would be reluctant to just hand that information over to another store that might end up buying those nicer corals before me.
Until recently that is the kind of wholesaler I was looking for. And while i found a few, I could not work with them due to getting the stuff to my location without a large risk was not worth it to me.
As far as asking other store owners about thier wholesalers being rude?
I half heartedly agree. The store owners I talked to, where not a matter of just walking in off the street and asking, these are stores I have worked with in the past.
Some of these were stores I had introduced to a couple of breeders I know, these are stores I introduced to a couple of wholesalers I knew of that a lot didn't know about.
Then when I saw a very nice shipment come into one of those stores, I questioned the source and the owner would not tell me. I shrugged it off. I never devulged another source for that store again. Or any other store for that matter.
If I had a wholesaler that was getting me above average stuff I would be reluctant to just hand that information over to another store that might end up buying those nicer corals before me.
Until recently that is the kind of wholesaler I was looking for. And while i found a few, I could not work with them due to getting the stuff to my location without a large risk was not worth it to me.
As far as asking other store owners about thier wholesalers being rude?
I half heartedly agree. The store owners I talked to, where not a matter of just walking in off the street and asking, these are stores I have worked with in the past.
Some of these were stores I had introduced to a couple of breeders I know, these are stores I introduced to a couple of wholesalers I knew of that a lot didn't know about.
Then when I saw a very nice shipment come into one of those stores, I questioned the source and the owner would not tell me. I shrugged it off. I never devulged another source for that store again. Or any other store for that matter.
I think its a catch 22 by not revealing who your good sources are. One one hand you risk not getting as many cherry items because there are more people competing for them. On the other hand you risk super top secret supplier goes out of business because they are not making enough sales because people are keeping the business a secret.
When I was in the business here I had a problem with another store. They would camp out at the airport and find out what shipper we were using. When they would find out they would try and get us blackballed if they already did business with that supplier or they would start buying from our new supplier and get us blackballed. It was the equivalent of David v. Goliath.
When I was in the business here I had a problem with another store. They would camp out at the airport and find out what shipper we were using. When they would find out they would try and get us blackballed if they already did business with that supplier or they would start buying from our new supplier and get us blackballed. It was the equivalent of David v. Goliath.
- Location
- Laguna Beach, California
So here is the confusion I'm having. First off, I started this thread to really look at suppliers in the country of origin--not wholesalers and transhippers Stateside, but I'm interested in the response to the latter. Having said that, I'm just not getting the cloak and dagger aspect. Now of course I'm not a LFS owner, so I may have a hyper-oversimplistic view, but far as I can tell, there just are not that many quality wholesale facilities in a place like L.A., are there? I mean, why not hop a flight to LAX and walk down 104th street? That would be an easy way for an LFS owner to meet all the big players, no? Now, I'm only partly serious, but seriously, the number of big players is just not that big. So are we talking about garage wholesalers and transhippers when we talk cloak and dagger?
swsaltwater":1og9j1mg said:
When asked, in person or on the phone, I have shared my experiences with specific suppliers if I actually have direct experience with them. I don't engage in hearsay about what I "heard" about one or the other, just what happened to me. Since I have not dealt with those for many years, the info may not even hold water anymore. I'm certainly not going to post stuff here that could be construed as slander (or libel - I always get the two confused)... and I'm sure I'm not alone in that. Like I said though, it's been a long time so if somebody asked me about "big box X" I don't know how much merit years-old info has at this point - people change their businesses to accommodate their clients - I know I have... so anything I have to say can and should be taken with a grain of salt anyway.
Well my *best* customers shop with me exclusively - or almost exclusively and most wouldn't be caught dead in a Petco... but I understand what you are saying - and yes I've considered that part of it.
It's not like I've never told *anybody* who I buy from
And like I said also, it's no huge secret - these suppliers are out there and anybody can find them if they choose to, and there's no exclusivity, so I don't see what the big deal is. Just because I'm not really wanting to make it easy for somebody else to find them doesn't mean they aren't looking for clients themselves, and as I mentioned, if one of my suppliers asks to use me as a client reference, I support them fully in that.As a business owner, I don't rely on word-of-mouth entirely to promote my business, nor should any business. Yes, word-of-mouth is often the cheapest and best advertising, but it's not the only way to find customers. Again, you are giving me too much credit. I don't think I'm the only one who is quiet about who I buy from, but there are people who are quite eager to share who their suppliers are... so it's not like they aren't getting some word-of-mouth. Again, you are giving me way too much credit.
Not enough people give a tinker's damn about my opinion that it would make or break a supplier. And honestly I'm not even asked very often.
So are you suggesting that I should post a list of the names and phone numbers here or something? There's only a couple anyway... so it would be a pretty short list.
And like I said, it's quite probable that there are a bunch of equally good and perhaps even better suppliers out there beyond my little circle. I don't have unlimited resources to try them all and report back... I do what works for me, just as all shops do. I tend to stay loyal for years to those who do good business with me, so I haven't ventured out of my little comfort zone in a long time, because mainly, I haven't had a need to.
Last time I spoke with one of my suppliers (one of the owners), his business was booming - so clearly doing things "right" is paying off regardless of whether his customers share their info or not.
Jenn
- Location
- Laguna Beach, California
GreshamH":2m1nnq8a said:104th only houses like 6 of them IIRC, the rest are spattered about the greater LA region
lol...I know...but you get my point, right? I mean we're not dealing with 100s of big reputable wholesalers, although there are many garage transhippers for sure.
When I worked for another store, there was dumpster diving (by others) to find out where my employer was buying from - if there was a label on a box or an invoice out on a counter... I was taught from the start to keep such "papers" out of plain sight.
When I'd go to the airport and the "competitor" from 30 miles away was doing his damnedest to find out who I was buying from... as if it would really make a difference to him - I don't know if it was just curiosity on his part or what...
Clearly I'm not the only one who is protective about such info. I don't even tell hobbyists as such even though the suppliers won't sell directly to them anyway. Occasionally we get people come in on "fact finding missions" for other stores, so I just don't share that info with others.
Again - my suppliers are above-board wholesalers that anybody can find and contact through their own advertisements, websites, are contacted by sales staff etc. They aren't "secret" at all. I just happened to find them throughout my regular course of business using those same vehicles - some contacted me first, I contacted some first because I saw their ads or whatever - and some did come recommended by other stores who are more generous with their info than I am.
It's really not as big of a deal as some of you are making it out to be, but at the same time, it's common practice for many people in a competitive field to keep certain information to themselves to protect their interests.
Jenn
When I'd go to the airport and the "competitor" from 30 miles away was doing his damnedest to find out who I was buying from... as if it would really make a difference to him - I don't know if it was just curiosity on his part or what...
Clearly I'm not the only one who is protective about such info. I don't even tell hobbyists as such even though the suppliers won't sell directly to them anyway. Occasionally we get people come in on "fact finding missions" for other stores, so I just don't share that info with others.
Again - my suppliers are above-board wholesalers that anybody can find and contact through their own advertisements, websites, are contacted by sales staff etc. They aren't "secret" at all. I just happened to find them throughout my regular course of business using those same vehicles - some contacted me first, I contacted some first because I saw their ads or whatever - and some did come recommended by other stores who are more generous with their info than I am.
It's really not as big of a deal as some of you are making it out to be, but at the same time, it's common practice for many people in a competitive field to keep certain information to themselves to protect their interests.
Jenn
- Location
- Laguna Beach, California
JennM":1dpu5pwk said:
I'm not trying to make it a big deal--I was just curious. It's really not related to this story on which I'm working which is about country-of-origin suppliers.
On a personal level, however, I'll just throw it out there that as a hobbyist, I have made purchases of livestock in the past based on who the wholesaler supplying the retailer is. If a retailer is cagey about that, I often choose to take my business elsewhere. As a hobbyist, I try to use my buying power (as small as it may be...lol) to promote a sustainable and robust hobby.
I daresay that country of origin suppliers are held in the same regard - importers who are getting quality stuff probably don't want to share their slice of the pie... but since I'm not in that end of it I'll defer to somebody who is.
I wish more hobbyists were as discriminating concerning their livestock purchases. However most wouldn't know a good one from a bad one if I did name names... what they want to know is where the specimen came from and an assurance that it was ethically collected - and an assurance is all I can give them based on present and past performance of the supplier and the quality and health of the creatures I've bought from them. In that instance, names as such don't matter.
People know I'm choosy and they come to me because of that. That's enough, isn't it?
Jenn
I wish more hobbyists were as discriminating concerning their livestock purchases. However most wouldn't know a good one from a bad one if I did name names... what they want to know is where the specimen came from and an assurance that it was ethically collected - and an assurance is all I can give them based on present and past performance of the supplier and the quality and health of the creatures I've bought from them. In that instance, names as such don't matter.
People know I'm choosy and they come to me because of that. That's enough, isn't it?
Jenn
As somebody on the supply side of the fence, it's worth noting that some of the local dealers are fairly small operations. Because they can't handle a lot of clients at a time, they don't make a big effort of publicizing themselves. In this case, being a "secret supplier" is purely practical and has little to do with competition.
I do not think there are a whole lot of supply secrets. Times are changing and the supply chains are reacting with convolution. Pacific Aqua Farm's ( PAF ) recent majority ownership in Bluezooaquatics is just one example.
I mentioned a long time ago that this would be the future and it just makes good business sense for importers and wholesalers to change direction to meet market demands. What PAF is doing is nothing new, it was done prior with Flying Fish and in a sense with Reefermadness. The industry must embrace these changes as we all want to see the MO industry survive.
I mentioned a long time ago that this would be the future and it just makes good business sense for importers and wholesalers to change direction to meet market demands. What PAF is doing is nothing new, it was done prior with Flying Fish and in a sense with Reefermadness. The industry must embrace these changes as we all want to see the MO industry survive.
- Location
- Laguna Beach, California
AquaErik":18fa94d9 said:
You know it's interesting, Erik, that in the last month I have learned of three relatively small time retail players (all brick and mortar shops) that are now buying direct from country-of-origin suppliers as part of their "new business model." One is even advertising this fact to their customers. Interseting, no?
- Location
- Laguna Beach, California
aquaticvet1":39syonvm said:
I agree that there are not a lot of legal supply secrets, but it is interesting to see how some retailers market themselves as having an edge because of their secret suppliers.
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