Who thinks posting success with difficult animals helps

[Anonymous]

Spongivores can be fed a diet of frozen sponges that are available, I think, through ocean nutrition. I will agree that coralivores have no place in our tanks, not only because it is not possible to feed thm with live coral, but would also deplete live corals we wish to keep.

I cannot think of any anemones that are now unable to be kept. Some are more difficult than others but can be kept.

 

[Anonymous]

The spongivores might not be the best example, but they are not all as easily fed as a qeen angel for instance, even with specialized prepared foods. Some fish feed on specific sponges. Rock beauties seem to be a big problem, but I suspenct collecting practices play a roll.
As for the anemones, I'm speaking of survival rates by the vast majority of hobbiests who are likely to take one home, not an experienced aquarist such as yourself, myself, or many other people on this board. If the world was full of Anemonebuffs, no issues!

Jim

 

[Anonymous]

Hmmm...well when 75 to 100% of certain critters stop dying, I'll start adding the "I think".

How do you feel about the numbers of animals that die so you can keep 'easy to keep' ones in your tank? Why are their death accptable to you, but the death of 'hard to keep' animals arent?

For now, call me arrogant if you want, but I assure you that's NOT the space that comment comes from, at least when I say it. These are living, breathing animals - not expendible THINGS.

Thats your opinion and opinion expressed as fact can easily be seen as arrogant. Cows, spiders, ants, dogs, and cats are living breathing animals, but people seem to have no problem killing them as expendible things.

 

[Anonymous]

There are huge, and I think rather obvious differences between what I said, and the points you are trying to make.
Jim

 

[Anonymous]

There are huge, and I think rather obvious differences between what I said, and the points you are trying to make.
Jim

I disagree.

 

[Anonymous]

That's OK, I still think you're a swell guy...

 

[Anonymous]

Interesting thoughts... I was at a LFS this weekend and my wife and I saw a brightly colored yellow Goniopora. We always ask the species first, and our LFS is very knowledgeable, and honest. *Twice* we walked away from two different types of Goniopora, and *twice* the LFS told us to walk away from it. What I don't understand is why it's carried in there since we were told to stay away from it.

Why does it die in home aquaria? Does anybody know here?
Thanks,
~wings~

 

[Johnsteph10]

What I don't understand is why LFS continue to carry such things! Several stores I can think of have carried gonioporas, moorish idols, 16 inch queen angels, elegance corals, rays, sharks, tanks full of panther groupers, etc. It's the same in FW -- 30 little oscars, 30 little pacus, etc.

Most of the responsibility in my opinion lies at the feet of LFS/online dealers who really do not explain why they carry such things. Their response is "because that is what customers want." Well, they want it because you have it! Don't carry it, explain why, give alternatives.

I think both sides of the discussion are quite valid. It is up to us as members of the hobby not only to educate ourselves, but to take the time and energy to educate others (like employees of petco ).

Just my $.02,

John
(stepping down off the soapbox)

 

[Anonymous]

Agreed.
~wings~

 

[Anonymous]

I think we and the critters would be well served if only special orders were made for the harder to keep fishes and inverts. Many of the retailers don't know about the specimens either(nor do some care). What they do know is how much they make when one is sold.

How about we do this?

We start by orchestrating teams in different parts of the country(world) and we either play stupid((easier than some of us then others)and some ain't playing) or have someone we know go in and test our local retailers. We could rate them on honesty, to critter housing, to equiptment carried and advised to us, as well as courtesy.

We could then link this to the LFS list on this site. If a place continually pushes moorish idols and batfish on you and then says to get a goni for your reef, you can give them a negative rating here. Kind of like a Zagat survey for LFS's. We could even do it for the online retailers as well.

What do you(contributors and moderators) think?

 

[Anonymous]

What I don't understand is why LFS continue to carry such things!

Most of the responsibility in my opinion lies at the feet of LFS/online dealers who really do not explain why they carry such things. Their response is "because that is what customers want." Well, they want it because you have it! Don't carry it, explain why, give alternatives.

I think both sides of the discussion are quite valid. It is up to us as members of the hobby not only to educate ourselves, but to take the time and energy to educate others (like employees of petco ).

John
(stepping down off the soapbox)

And we have now come full circle.
Look at the beginning of this thread; because many people already have their minds made up to buy these animals no matter how many people tell them or explain to them why they shouldn't be purchased. In the case of LFS or Etailers if they don't have these animals people will just go elsewhere to get them. Yup it's a maddening cycle and like I stated if I can stop one person then you can stop one person and Jim can stop one person, etc. by posting in threads. It's not a lot but it's a start.
As far as should xxx species be sold, I'll argue that out when those threads appear. I'm saving my strength. :wink:

Regards,
David Mohr

 

[DaisyPolyp]

So we're back in the classic situation "Which is more harmful; to be ignorant or to be stupid?"

I think this is the mission of a website such as this. In the absence of knowledge you have chaos. The question we should be asking is, "how are we going to be effective with our knowledge?" (Because we all know that knowledge can be dangerous when used improperly).

IMHO a forum should be commissioned entitled "Advanced Species" (or similar) and in that forum, a few widely accepted moderators will oversee the exchange of information between hobbyists. A couple of ground rules will be necessary:
1. This should be as close to a scientific discussion as possible; if you make a post, you better post the supporting data as well.
2. Every thread should be a poll thread so that all members can vote as to the general agreement or disagreement with the content of the thread.

This is a very simple proposal. I think one of the biggest factors here is that the new/inexperienced/casual hobbyist does not know the good posts from the junk posts.

...your feedback is encouraged

 

[Anonymous]

So we're back in the classic situation "Which is more harmful; to be ignorant or to be stupid?"

I think this is the mission of a website such as this. In the absence of knowledge you have chaos. The question we should be asking is, "how are we going to be effective with our knowledge?" (Because we all know that knowledge can be dangerous when used improperly).

You haven't been in the Forum or Mailing Lists wars I've been in or seen.
When the so-called scientific gurus collide it ain't pretty sometimes.

IMHO a forum should be commissioned entitled "Advanced Species" (or similar) and in that forum, a few widely accepted moderators will oversee the exchange of information between hobbyists. A couple of ground rules will be necessary:
1. This should be as close to a scientific discussion as possible; if you make a post, you better post the supporting data as well.
2. Every thread should be a poll thread so that all members can vote as to the general agreement or disagreement with the content of the thread.

And if someone doesn't post supporting data ? What you gonna do toss 'em?

This is a very simple proposal. I think one of the biggest factors here is that the new/inexperienced/casual hobbyist does not know the good posts from the junk posts.

As it is right now you have to use your bs meter or look at a responders replies to previous threads to see if they are credible or not.

BTW if you look at the forums on this Site there are already Advanced Aquarist's Online Forums that are seriously under utilized.

ps I admire your gumption.

Regards,
David Mohr

 

[DaisyPolyp]

if you look at the forums on this Site there are already Advanced Aquarist's Online Forums that are seriously under utilized.

That's what I'm talking about... people will always choose the path of least resistance. What would happen if the moderators started moving threads from the "general discussion" to the advanced forums? I say it would start a trend.

 

[EmilyB]

It's obviously far preferred that people who have success never, ever talk about it. That would be just horrible.

Perhaps tho, people with success should only help out via pm ? Would that be acceptable? :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

It's obviously far preferred that people who have success never, ever talk about it. That would be just horrible.

Perhaps tho, people with success should only help out via pm ? Would that be acceptable? :roll:

???????????????????????????????
And this is in reply to what or whom?

btw: Me thinks someone from Administration is paying attention as strange things are happening when you reload the Site. 8O
Or it's just me? Never mind it's just me clicking on the wrong thing.

Regards,
David Mohr

 

[Ben1]

That is why certain species need more control by the government. Some sort of licensing to prevent fragile animals from dieing reefs from ending up in in-adequate hands. How the government could test the skills of any said aquarist, and institute this I don't know but. In the end I am not the type to encourage any help form the government but as long as delicate animals end up in the wrong hands our hobby will have a bad name.

have someone we know go in and test our local retailers. We could rate them on honesty, to critter housing, to equiptment carried and advised to us, as well as courtesy.

We could then link this to the LFS list on this site. If a place continually pushes moorish idols and batfish on you and then says to get a goni for your reef, you can give them a negative rating here. Kind of like a Zagat survey for LFS's. We could even do it for the online retailers as well.

I like that idea!
[/quote]

 

[EmilyB]

And this is in reply to what or whom?

Maybe RDO, maybe other groups as well. It's not going away, in case you didn't notice. :roll:

And tangs need food, not just negation. :wink:

People are keeping difficult fish/corals, they just don't talk about it. The groups aren't encouraging newbies to try stuff by providing education, and if it comes off that way.......wrong.

Most of my attitude/knowledge came from the old guys at ramr (you b%s&ards. But they were patient, even you David.

I agree the people wanting these animals should have a forum to discuss their suitability and the successes.

 

[Anonymous]

That is why certain species need more control by the government. Some sort of licensing to prevent fragile animals from dieing reefs from ending up in in-adequate hands. How the government could test the skills of any said aquarist, and institute this I don't know but. In the end I am not the type to encourage any help form the government but as long as delicate animals end up in the wrong hands our hobby will have a bad name.

NO!

I've heard about other countries where ALL butterfly species are banned, because of the few that can't be kept alive in captivity. They'd rather cover all their bases and then some than leave a few species out. I think Germany is one. Can you imagine what our government might do? Goniopora doesn't do well, so let's outlaw all stony coral species. Linkia stars ship very poorly, so let's outlaw all starfish.

 

[Ben1]

Yeah government does seems to go overboard. Trust me I am all for keeping the government out but what other options are their besides posting on boards to educate people on why they shouldnt be keeping these difficult animals?