NYreefNoob

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dom so you know most of what you told me i knew of or about, my aunt is a diabetic specialist and trvels the world giving lecture's also does alot of article writings and is a spoke person for lilly, plus being from indiana and not far from lilly and neighbor was one of top secretaries and her husband was vp i learnt a little, really i had seen a thing on oprah with a guy speaking about drug advertisement commercials and how misleading they can be and is there really a need for a prescription drug. being short handed in a field would mean that you dont have the appropiate time or man power to properly go over stuff, and i know most drugs that are out were created years before
 

BZOFIQ

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I didn't have the time to read the entire post but I will state a fact I recently learned from a program about this on TV. Here it is in 1 sentence.

Pharmaceutical industry is the number one industry in money making in the US, followed closely by.....you guessed it .........insurance.

I recently got a bill from Coney Island and 2 Acetominophen tablets were $77.50. These same tablets are about 8 bucks for hundreds at CVS. Every wonder why the insurance premiums are so high??? Well, somebody has to swallow this BS.

I've heard from friends working at various medical offices that pharmaceutical companies advertising drugs to doctors treat the entire staff for "waaaay above average lunch" and provide incentives to doctors for them to offer their drug over another. Guess you pays for all of it? You don't even have to finish HS to figure that one out.
 

Domboski

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I didn't have the time to read the entire post but I will state a fact I recently learned from a program about this on TV. Here it is in 1 sentence.

Pharmaceutical industry is the number one industry in money making in the US, followed closely by.....you guessed it .........insurance.

I recently got a bill from Coney Island and 2 Acetominophen tablets were $77.50. These same tablets are about 8 bucks for hundreds at CVS. Every wonder why the insurance premiums are so high??? Well, somebody has to swallow this BS.

I've heard from friends working at various medical offices that pharmaceutical companies advertising drugs to doctors treat the entire staff for "waaaay above average lunch" and provide incentives to doctors for them to offer their drug over another. Guess you pays for all of it? You don't even have to finish HS to figure that one out.

Drugs are one of the main reasons why people live a lot longer. That is a good product and worth a lot of money, no? Becuase you make the most money doesn't make you evil.

It is against the law for pharma sales reps to pay for Doctor's lunches. That was the old way of doing things. :tired:

I'd rather hear an industry that has been pretty important in extending our lifespans making the most money versus a shoemaker :) No one can deny that these products work.

The pricing of drugs is very complicated. Many good drugs don't make it to market because of the price structures that are in place. Only when a new class of drugs is created is when a pharma company can negotiate the cost. The designation of a new class of drugs is decided by USAN (United States Adopted Names) and WHO (World Health Organization). Both government agencies. After that, the price level for that specific class is fixed no matter how much it costs to make a drug. Many drugs have been abandoned in the past because they cost a lot more to make than they could be sold for. How scary is that? Who decides the price structures you ask? Third party payers (Insurance companies :irked:). Does that mean a pharma company can't say screw the insurance companies and charge what they want? Of course they can but no one will be able to afford their drug and they will go out of business.

You can point fingers in any direction you want. There is no conspiracy theory. It's an imperfect system just like many other areas of regulation.

The bottom line is $78 to buy a pill that helps your health is outrageous but paying $100 for a coral is fine? I don't get that :scratch: The money invested to discover, develop and market a drug are in the 100 of millions of dollars.
 
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jejton

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Xoomer - The hospital bill was $77.50, not the pharmaceutical companies or the pharmacies. Hospital inflate their bills, just like most industries that work with insurance companies ( ask some of our auto people here ), because the insurance company will reimburse at such a low rate, the hospital will lose money ( a large percentage, if not most, hospitals, especially public ones, work in the red )if they billed at the actual cost. The same reason pushes hospitals, and other health care providers, to bill non-insured people at a higher rate than they do the insurance companies. That person is basically covering the difference. OTOH, insurance companies and HMO's ( that was the main rational for HMO creations ) argue that they are only getting a discounted rate ( and if its an HMO and the health care provider/hospital is an in-network, than its a contracted amount ) because they are doing what we reefers call, " a group buy. "

Dom - Pharm representatives regularly take out doctors for lunches. They do a lot more than that too. A lot of little things like free pens, samples, notepads, and more valuable things like all expense paid conferences, etc. Chartered fishing trips are unheard of these days but there are other things that are done. The AMA actually set a guideline that states it is ethical for a doctor to accept a gift - from a patient or family, pharmaceutical rep, etc - for about up to $80 ( I have to check my notes for the exact amount ). There are many doctors who, as principle, won't accept anything for free, even a pen, because they feel it affects their integrity - in actuality or in the eyes of patients ( my dean is one ).
 

jejton

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If you want something to be angry about, I'll give you something. Our brilliant, wonderful moral government allowed a bill to pass that forbids Medicare ( the largest consumer in US healthcare ) to negotiate drug prices with pharmaceutical companies. Just another brilliant move by our government ( not that Democrats have a wonderful track record either ).

What Dom says is very true, though. The price of a drug has to take into account the extremely large ( in terms of billions of dollars ) amount of money that goes into each succesful drug - which is a tremendous amount of research, trials, and failed drugs that cost millions. Marketing is actually a small percentage of pharm expenditures ( I believe it was under 20%).
 

jejton

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The bottom line is $78 to buy a pill that helps your health is outrageous but paying $100 for a coral is fine? I don't get that :scratch:


What dont you get? Why should a person have to pay the $20 copay to see a private doctor for their headache when they can go to the ER and (thanks to another brilliant piece of legislation ) and have to be seen under pretty much any circumstance, and then stiff the $150 bill since they didnt feel like filling out the medicaid paperwork. Or they can't pay the $50 ER copay because, well we all know, bling bling, rims and basketball sneakers must come first.
 

Domboski

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What dont you get? Why should a person have to pay the $20 copay to see a private doctor for their headache when they can go to the ER and (thanks to another brilliant piece of legislation ) and have to be seen under pretty much any circumstance, and then stiff the $150 bill since they didnt feel like filling out the medicaid paperwork. Or they can't pay the $50 ER copay because, well we all know, bling bling, rims and basketball sneakers must come first.

:lol2:
 

BZOFIQ

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Drugs are one of the main reasons why people live a lot longer. That is a good product and worth a lot of money, no? Becuase you make the most money doesn't make you evil.

It is against the law for pharma sales reps to pay for Doctor's lunches. That was the old way of doing things. :tired:

I'd rather hear an industry that has been pretty important in extending our lifespans making the most money versus a shoemaker :) No one can deny that these products work.

...


The bottom line is $78 to buy a pill that helps your health is outrageous but paying $100 for a coral is fine? I don't get that :scratch: The money invested to discover, develop and market a drug are in the 100 of millions of dollars.

Did you say you work in this field? Sounds like a line from an employee manual.

There are many things that are against the law, does it mean they are not happening? They still are!

Too broad a statement, plenty of drugs have been recalled because....well...they didn't work.

You failed to comprehend my statement. The point I was making is that the hospital charged $77.50 for 2 pills that cost about $0.16 at the store.

Saying that a company should just charge whatever they wan't to charge no matter how much it costs to make that drug is senseless. Say there was a drug that could cure ....say cancer or ....AIDS and you had (as one who is affected, god forbid of course) a choice to own your $600K home or stay alive if you purchased the drug for $600,000, should you have to make that choice. My point here is not whether you chose one or the other, anybody would choose to stay alive (nothing else that is material matters) but should the company be allowed to charge that much, no matter the cost to make it? I am NOT so sure.
 

BZOFIQ

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Xoomer - The hospital bill was $77.50, not the pharmaceutical companies or the pharmacies.

Dom - Pharm representatives regularly take out doctors for lunches. They do a lot more than that too. A lot of little things like free pens, samples, notepads, and more valuable things like all expense paid conferences, etc. Chartered fishing trips are unheard of these days but there are other things that are done. ).


Well, that was a poor example on my part but I, myself, have paid over $300 out of my packet to pay for an ointment (tiny tube for that) for my father's leg.

You'd say now the pharmacy jacked up the price, well I don't think we can buy drugs directly from the manufacturers.....I didn't see a Pfizer outlet at Woodberry Commons.


It is actually even worst then that but I didn't want to list details in a "public" place.
 

Domboski

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Did you say you work in this field? Sounds like a line from an employee manual.

There are many things that are against the law, does it mean they are not happening? They still are!

Too broad a statement, plenty of drugs have been recalled because....well...they didn't work.

You failed to comprehend my statement. The point I was making is that the hospital charged $77.50 for 2 pills that cost about $0.16 at the store.

Saying that a company should just charge whatever they wan't to charge no matter how much it costs to make that drug is senseless. Say there was a drug that could cure ....say cancer or ....AIDS and you had (as one who is affected, god forbid of course) a choice to own your $600K home or stay alive if you purchased the drug for $600,000, should you have to make that choice. My point here is not whether you chose one or the other, anybody would choose to stay alive (nothing else that is material matters) but should the company be allowed to charge that much, no matter the cost to make it? I am NOT so sure.

Because I work in marketing and understand the background of what goes on in the pharmaceutical business doesn't mean I'm repeating a manual. :irked: I do not work for a pharmaceutical company.

I do understand your statement. You are making judgements between apples and oranges. The pharmaceutical companies have almost nothing to do with the cost you pay in the hospital. As Eric mentioned, there is a lot more built into the hospital cost of pills than the pills you can buy at CVS.

should the company be allowed to charge that much, no matter the cost to make it? I am NOT so sure.

Companies are not allowed to charge a fee that covers their costs to bring you the product that you buy? :confused: Come on dude....
 
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Domboski

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To bring this thread back to topic... Pharmaceutical companies run ads to promote their products just like any other business. The reason they run DTC advertising is to have patients ask Doctors about specific products.

The best and most effective way pharmaceuticals promote their products is through drug samples. That is something that benefits patients because you do not have to pay for the sample tablets at all.
 

KathyC

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It is against the law for pharma sales reps to pay for Doctor's lunches. That was the old way of doing things. :tired:

So is buying them dinner (at fancy steak houses, with Grey Goose martinis no less) and calling it a seminar is the new way? lol My best friend is a doctor and he must go to 5 or 6 of these 'seminars' every month.
I frequently go to CVS Vendor shows (my line of work) and the drug companies give out the nicest 'gifts' of anyone in attendance to the pharmacists, not even necessary, as they aren't the ones doing the prescribing.
 

jejton

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Say there was a drug that could cure ....say cancer or ....AIDS and you had (as one who is affected, god forbid of course) a choice to own your $600K home or stay alive if you purchased the drug for $600,000, should you have to make that choice.

(Without commenting on the rest of your post) People make that choice all the time. Take a group of people who all have a similar range income and same size family, some will include health insurance in the mandatory expenses, and then buy non-essentials ( such as rims, video games, expensive car, jewelry, vacation, gambling, hookers, drugs, homes beyond their means ), while others will buy many of those same items and then only buy health insurance if there is anything left. This is just one example. I am not commenting on the morality of charging high prices, just on your choice of example. After all, some people could argue that they shouldnt have to pay full cost for an AIDS drug regimen to subsidize cheap drugs for AIDS patients in Africa. Who's right? Each has a valid point. Why is a poor person in America less entitled to a drug ( developed in America, by an America company and subsidized in large part by American-paid taxes ) than a poor person in Africa ( who can argue that much of the Western world's weath, which enabled it to get to the point that it can develop AIDS drugs, was derived by ripping off African natural and human resources) ? These are the ethical dilemmas that people in the health care field ( not just doctors, but insurers, pharmaceuticals, nurses, etc ) face every day. Let me tell you, there are few easy answers.
 

Domboski

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Like I said, it is not as easy as it used to be. Ask someone who is a pharma sales rep if they make as much money as they used to? Ask them how much harder their jobs became? Big brother is always watching :lol2:

Pharmacists are quite influential in what drugs are used in many ways. They actually have discussions with patients frequently about their conditions and what treatment options they have. There is also the whole drug safety side in terms of mis-prescriptions, drug interactions and compliance. Pharmacists play a huge role there as well.

Because of FDA regulations pharma companies may spend a million dollars to get a name for their drug alone. A million dollars to come up with a name and test it! They have to do research to show that their drug name is not going to be confused with any other drug on the market (over 17,000 drugs in the US alone and there is only 26 letters in the alphabet). I've even seen drug name candidates rejected by the FDA because they sounded similar to drugs that were no longer on the market.
 
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Domboski

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So is buying them dinner (at fancy steak houses, with Grey Goose martinis no less) and calling it a seminar is the new way? lol My best friend is a doctor and he must go to 5 or 6 of these 'seminars' every month.
I frequently go to CVS Vendor shows (my line of work) and the drug companies give out the nicest 'gifts' of anyone in attendance to the pharmacists, not even necessary, as they aren't the ones doing the prescribing.

Let me change the angle on this a little bit. I'm assuming Doctor's like your friend take full advantage of these seminars / opportunities. Why is that not considered an issue?
 

Domboski

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I also want to mention one more time that I am in no way saying pharmaceutical companies are saints. I'm trying to provide more information on what really happens behind the scenes so people understand that there is a lot more involved than "pharmaceuticals make a lot of money, grease doctors and then rip off patients". Yes they make a lot of money and they practice the same business principles that any other category of goods does. They are not out to rip patients off.
 

jejton

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It is, and rightfully so ( see my above comment on the AMA's guidelines and my dean ). If anyone is interested, PM me and I will send you some articles that we used for this topic discussion in school. Most of it was directed at doctors accepting gifts. A more contentious, and bigger, problem than your average MD accepting the lunch and pens is when researchers ( many of whom are pHD's and not MD's ) dont disclose their connections and/or funding sources from pharmaceutical companies in their papers. A study showed that this greatly influenced ( whether openly funded or not ) the outcome of the research. Dom, I think you'd be interested in that one.
 

jejton

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They are not out to rip patients off.

This is very true. They are out to rip off the insurance companies, HMO's, Medicaid and Medicare. Thats where the big bucks are.:biglaugh:

But in all seriousness, like Dom said, they play the same business practices as every industry, but when it comes to things that deal more directly with life and limb, people will be more emotional and we do need higher standards - cases in point are tobacco, alcohol and firearms industries.
 

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