I have a sand bed that is approx 2 inches. As time goes on the sand has had lots of algae,detritus, and crab and snail shells mixed in with it. Is it normal for a sandbed to mix with lots of junk, or am I slacking on the husbantry work? Should I scoop out the dirty sections and replace it with fresh sand to give it that new sand look? Is there any ill effect to a dirty sand bed?
Dirty sand?
- Thread starter Craig
- Start date
This is hard to say since we don't know what grain size you are using.
If it is sugarfine to 2mm sand, you can pick out whe shells, but for the most part, don't do much to disturb the bed. You can siphon the crap off of the top though.
If you are using larger grain sizes, 3-4mm or larger, then you've got a shallow sand bed and it is better for you to vacuum out the crap, otherwise you've got a nitrate factory down there.
It sounds to me like you are using larger grain sizes.
If it is sugarfine to 2mm sand, you can pick out whe shells, but for the most part, don't do much to disturb the bed. You can siphon the crap off of the top though.
If you are using larger grain sizes, 3-4mm or larger, then you've got a shallow sand bed and it is better for you to vacuum out the crap, otherwise you've got a nitrate factory down there.
It sounds to me like you are using larger grain sizes.
I'm using 2 different types of sand. The superfine stuff and 1 size larger. I've got the fine stuff on the bottom with the larger stuff on top of it. It's the top 1/4 that seems to be hlding al the green crud.
What do you reccomend I purchase to do the vaccuming?
What do you reccomend I purchase to do the vaccuming?
- Location
- Howell, NJ
green crud = algae :scratch: hmmmmmmmm
When my tank first cycled I had a major algae bloom. Ahter 2 weeks of ripping it out, and stocking up on snails and an algae blenny the algae was under control and eventually almost nonexistent, however due to all the sandsifting a chunk has remained in the sand. the snails and sandsifting star dont seem to be doing the trick.
Hmmm, I don't know why anyone would recommend that.
If you read through the threads here, you will see a lot of different views and opinions on substrate. There is bare bottom, shallow sand bed and deep sand bed. By mixing the substrate as you have there, you've got a shallow sand bed on top of a shallow sand bed. Now assuming that the fine sand is 1 inch deep, you will have some nitrate reduction, but this small amount of sand with a different size grain on top will eventually lead to a crash of your bed. I can't say exactly how long that will be since I don't know how much livestock you keep and how good your husbandry is.
The reason you've got the green layer is probably because the first layer is releasing some of it's nutrients, but they are getting caught up in the layer above rather than precipitating out of the system. Also, as you mentioned, there is crud building up in the top layer which is also building up nutrients.
Increasing water flow just above the sand bed may help keep things from settling in there which will give your protein skimmer and water changes a chance to remove some of the nutrients.
I'm sure the last thing you want to hear is that I would either go with one grain size or go without sand all together. The idea of sand removal will make you want to choke someone... probably me since I'm telling you that that is what I would do.
Bare bottom (BB), shallow sand beds (SSB), and deep sand beds(DSB) are all methods in keeping fish tanks. All methods are used on this site. All methods are highly debatable, argued here frequently. For example, Solbby is a BB guy, Chiefmcfuz is an SSB guy and I use DSB. Others have either BB or SSB and run a remote DSB like House of Laughter. None are right or wrong. You just have to make sure the rest of you equipment and husbandry skills can handle the different methods. Search this site. There are plenty of threads on the BB, SSB, DSB topic. Try not to get too wrapped around all the links posted, unless you feel you understand them. Most of the time, I can't. Read about it and as you get closer to a decision, PM guys who use the method you like better.
Hope this helps. BTW, I'm also not saying that what you have won't work. You are experiencing a common problem that many do who mix layers of grain sizes which tells me that this is not a very good method. There have been a few guys who have come to the site recently with the layers sand bed and it didn't seem to be working out for them either. I believe I've seen this method mentioned in an old Martin Moe book. While that book may have been ahead of it's time, that method seemed to die out many years ago. Either way, good luck.
If you read through the threads here, you will see a lot of different views and opinions on substrate. There is bare bottom, shallow sand bed and deep sand bed. By mixing the substrate as you have there, you've got a shallow sand bed on top of a shallow sand bed. Now assuming that the fine sand is 1 inch deep, you will have some nitrate reduction, but this small amount of sand with a different size grain on top will eventually lead to a crash of your bed. I can't say exactly how long that will be since I don't know how much livestock you keep and how good your husbandry is.
The reason you've got the green layer is probably because the first layer is releasing some of it's nutrients, but they are getting caught up in the layer above rather than precipitating out of the system. Also, as you mentioned, there is crud building up in the top layer which is also building up nutrients.
Increasing water flow just above the sand bed may help keep things from settling in there which will give your protein skimmer and water changes a chance to remove some of the nutrients.
I'm sure the last thing you want to hear is that I would either go with one grain size or go without sand all together. The idea of sand removal will make you want to choke someone... probably me since I'm telling you that that is what I would do.
Bare bottom (BB), shallow sand beds (SSB), and deep sand beds(DSB) are all methods in keeping fish tanks. All methods are used on this site. All methods are highly debatable, argued here frequently. For example, Solbby is a BB guy, Chiefmcfuz is an SSB guy and I use DSB. Others have either BB or SSB and run a remote DSB like House of Laughter. None are right or wrong. You just have to make sure the rest of you equipment and husbandry skills can handle the different methods. Search this site. There are plenty of threads on the BB, SSB, DSB topic. Try not to get too wrapped around all the links posted, unless you feel you understand them. Most of the time, I can't. Read about it and as you get closer to a decision, PM guys who use the method you like better.
Hope this helps. BTW, I'm also not saying that what you have won't work. You are experiencing a common problem that many do who mix layers of grain sizes which tells me that this is not a very good method. There have been a few guys who have come to the site recently with the layers sand bed and it didn't seem to be working out for them either. I believe I've seen this method mentioned in an old Martin Moe book. While that book may have been ahead of it's time, that method seemed to die out many years ago. Either way, good luck.
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What's the best method for removing algae in the sand bed? Should I very slowly overtime replace some of the green sand with new sand? or should i get some more algae eating sand sifters? The amount of algae in the sand has not increased after the original cycle, so the root cause is gone. I'm just looking to finally clean up afterwards.
Since I have two type of sand piled up, shoudl I stir them together? Or perhaps drop some more sugar grain sized sand onto the bed?
I'm in the process of building a sump/refugium. WHen it's all set to go I was planing to put 2 inches of sugar grain sized sand and seed it from my tank's sand bed.
Since I have two type of sand piled up, shoudl I stir them together? Or perhaps drop some more sugar grain sized sand onto the bed?
I'm in the process of building a sump/refugium. WHen it's all set to go I was planing to put 2 inches of sugar grain sized sand and seed it from my tank's sand bed.
Craig, this is not true. You are at a level which will sustain this amount. Remove it as easy as you can. It will grow back.
Over recent months, there have been a few guys new to the site. I will not call them "newbies" since I do not know their level of experience with keeping salt water tanks. They were also advised to use the sand grain method the way you did and it also did not work. I hate to say this, but either remove the top layer and replenish that with the sugar fine sand or remove all of the substrate all together. Successful sand beds follow the original design and replenish what has dissolved every year.
I see you are getting frustrated and I understand that. I personally believe that you have been given poor information and I am just trying to help you correct what is wrong. If you do not like the answer, then go to the guy who told you to set the sand bed the way it is and get advice from him on how to clean it. I bet he has no answers, without selling you something.
Do not mix the bed together. You will still see algae in the top one inch within 1 month. I believe mixing will speed the process to a crash due to less surface area.
I love the hobby. The more people who are successful, the better. I'm just trying to help.
- Location
- Forest Hills
I find that diatom(brown)aglea will always grow on sand that r expose to light. the more light, the more algea will grow on it even with good water para. this is because phosphate binding to it n nutrients in water. however, if u have live sand(worms n critter n stuff living in it), it will eat that up(mostly at nite). having diff grain size enable more diverse organisms. having sand stirrers animals will help churn the sand over so it can be eaten up faster.
2 guys i find r very helpful in cleaning my sand:algea(lawnmower)blenny and cucumber(the sand sifting kind). to understand this more, i would recommend reading up on "Live Sand Secrets" Book by Bob Goemans.
2 guys i find r very helpful in cleaning my sand:algea(lawnmower)blenny and cucumber(the sand sifting kind). to understand this more, i would recommend reading up on "Live Sand Secrets" Book by Bob Goemans.
not true either. Finer sand eventually wins and covers the larger grain. You'll get the same biodiversity. You are losing surface area by mixing the bed. Pushing forward your timeline for a crash.
aside from cycle time, I've never seen algae on the surface of my sand bed. Good water movement would prevent this.
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- Location
- Forest Hills
Can you elaborate on this. Thanks.chris288 said:
Sure, think of it like the fluidized sand bed filters. A gallon of fine sand has signifigantly more surface than something like a gallon of bioballs. Where the fluidized beds failed was that the water wasn't well aerated and the increase in life led to severely declined O2 levels in return water. Less than you would see in a cannister filter. A lot less than you would see in well aerated systems like a wet/dry. Fluid beds were also worse nitrate factories than the wet/dry.
Now in regards to sandbeds, in a mixed bed, the finer sand eventually wins. It covers up the larger grains and makes it's way into every crevice. Anyone who has ever been to the desert knows that sand gets into everything. Now you will primarily be dealing with the biodiversity of fine sand.
Since the larger grain sizes have less surface area than the smaller grains, the population will eventually compete as solbby and bad coffee had said.
Less surface area gives the bacteria less room. Speeding up the timeline to a crash.
I still personally believe that as long as you replenish your sand bed every year, sand beds will last a very long time. The most I can personally say it can last is 6 years since that is the longest I have ever set one up. I do agree with what Solbby and Bad Coffee are saying, which is why I replenish and even go so far as to remove and replace small amounts as well.
Anthony Calfo was speaking about biodiversity of different grains of sand. Someone asked if it would be okay to put mixed beds in their tank and he basically said it would lead to disaster. He did not elaborate. I wish he did since what he had to say would have been very useful to the guys showing up in here with mixed sandbeds. As we all know, he is much better to answer these questions than my "barely graduated HS a$$".
:iamwithst
That's exactly what I didn't want. I was going to make up a "for example" time line, but next thing you know people will be saying that told them a DSB can only last 10 years. I remember talking to guys about DSB's and plenums as early as 1993. The big thing is to get across that following the designs of depths and grain sizes is crucial and sand beds are not plug and play.
It's not so bad craig. Look into threads of the different methods. You may find something you like. A lot of talent around this site and they can help you.
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