Help with sump/refugium design

[Gr33k R33f]

Hi all,

Great place you got here and thanks for all the help I have found around.
I need to apologize since this, my opening post is such a lengthy one.

I'm an old NYer that now lives in Athens-Greece, and I've been keeping tropical tanks and african cichlid tanks for the past 6-7 years. I recon its about time to take the plunge, so I started reading up on reef tanks and all that's involved.

The questions I have for you all is on the sump/refugium design.
Attached is a rough outline of what my reading has led me to believe is a good start.
I need any comments as to how this can be optimized, corrections, suggestions, overlooks, etc.


There are two paths:

(a) The normal path (Purple line): 1-2-3….8 and then return pumps.
(b) The ‘by-pass’ path (Green line): 1-9-10-11 and then return pumps

(b) is there to server as a release if anything gets severely clogged in the normal path.

( The long divider on the top that has chambers 9, 10 and 11 already exists so I have to live with it, and I figured I use it for this second ‘by-pass’ path.)

What I intend to do with each chamber:

1) A drilled plate with sponge below it, to ‘break’ the fall of the water from the durso pipes and keep it them silent as possible. Water then goes below the sponge, through bioballs held by an egg-crate before going to the next compartment.
2) Just a baffle and empty space before water goes over a slotted top to (3) the skimmer compartment.
3) Skimmer chamber (this will be the only submerged pump in the sump, trying to keep temp under control)
4) Three baffles to keep the bubbles down.
5) Chamber for active carbon bags with egg-crate towards (6)
6) Chamber for anti-phosphate bags with egg-crate.
7) This is the main refugium with a plenum (like this one) with live rock, algae and enough sand layers.
8) Yet another set of baffles (is this overkill)
9) The (external) return pumps will draw water from the middle of the last chamber, whether it came from the PURPE or the GREEN path.

Now the questions I have:

Q1) How can I calculate the height of each divider. What is a good place to start? Is it the water level the the skimmer needs?
Q2) How can I make things simpler in the above design?
Q3) Any tips on how to keep things as quiet as possible in the sump/ref?
Q4) As you see the water flow, are there points I need to worry about enough water flow/volume?
Q5) Where is the best place to put a floater/level switch so I can connect my RO/DI for compensation any evaporation?
Q6) This is a ~35G sump to support a 125G tank. I know skimmers and sumps are NEVER too big, but is that ratio (1/4) adequate for my live rock, minimal fish, SPS & LPS ultimate goal??
Q7) What else am I missing?

I know this is a lot to chew on, so take a crack at anything you can afford the time to, and of course be honest, even brutal if you think you have to...

I need to learn as much as possible!

 

[ChrisRD]

Hi Gr33k R33f and :welcome:

Can you give some dimensions for this sump?

 

[Gr33k R33f]

Hi there Chris!

Yeah I forgot the dimensions (all in centimeters) 70 (L) X 50 (W) X 50 (H) so it will house approx. 30G...
Obviously, I can add some height (another 15-20 cm) to get another 12-25G if it's needed but I'd rather not if I can get away with this size.

Can you comment on my intended set-up Chris?

 

[ChrisRD]

Well, it looks like you have put a lot of thought into this. :wink: To be honest, I think most of us are using something simpler, but this idea can certainly work and the choice is yours. I generally prefer to keep things as simple as possible.

Check this site out to see examples of some other designs: http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html

In regard to your questions - here is my opinion:

Q1) How can I calculate the height of each divider. What is a good place to start? Is it the water level the the skimmer needs?

If you're going to use an in-sump skimmer than the water height in that chamber is one of the driving factors IMO. Each design is different and you'll need to find out what the recommended water height is for the skimmer you want to use. Keep in mind it's also possible to run the chamber deeper than required and have the skimmer sit on some type of stand/support to attain the required operating water level.

Other than that - I would also consider a couple of things. First, I would not want a lot of drop in the water level from one chamber to the next because of possible noise/bubble generation. Also, you want to make sure you run the overall water level low enough in your sump so that when you're in a power-off condition, any water that drains down from the main tank will not overflow the sump.

Something else I consider with sump design water level is that last chamber where your return pump will draw from. If you make it too small, you'll have to be very diligent with evaporation top-off as your return pump could easily run dry when the water level dips too low. If you make it too large, there will be enough water available to the return pump to overflow the display tank in the event that the drain in the display tank gets blocked. Let me know if that doesn't make sense - I can try to clarify.

Q2) How can I make things simpler in the above design?

Have you thought about using that area that you're already stuck with (chambers 9, 10 & 11) as the fuge? You can tee-off from your drain line to feed it. This would allow you to put a lower flow rate through the fuge. Not sure on the dimensions of those chambers so it's tough to say how appealing this option just from the pic, but my guess is if you're going to run an in-sump skimmer, you'll need a lot of the other area for equipment.

Q3) Any tips on how to keep things as quiet as possible in the sump/ref?

I would say try to keep the fall minimal between chambers. Also, don't put a ton of flow through the sump - use in-tank circulation methods to get the flow you need.

Q4) As you see the water flow, are there points I need to worry about enough water flow/volume?

This usually isn't a big problem - usually the concern is putting too much flow through the fuge and/or sump.

Q5) Where is the best place to put a floater/level switch so I can connect my RO/DI for compensation any evaporation?

You need to put it in a chamber where water level will drop as evaporation occurs. Generally this is the last/lowest chamber where the return pump is drawing from.

Q6) This is a ~35G sump to support a 125G tank. I know skimmers and sumps are NEVER too big, but is that ratio (1/4) adequate for my live rock, minimal fish, SPS & LPS ultimate goal??

Your sump is big enough to house equipment for that size tank. The issue will be how much room is left over for a fuge (probably not much). If you're going with an in-sump skimmer, be sure to check on the footprint it requires before deciding on baffle/divider locations. Personally, if I had to choose between the larger fuge area, or leaving myself more room for a large skimmer I'd go with the latter. IMO the skimmer is far more critical than the fuge (IMO a fuge is optional - not required).

Q7) What else am I missing?

I assume the setup you decribed with the drip plate/sponge/bioballs is for silencing purposes. With adequate live rock and/or live sand in the system, there's no need for the sponge or bioballs to be present for filtration reasons. One possible issue with this setup is detritus build-up. If you choose to go with that setup, make sure it is easy to get to because it will require frequent cleaning.

Keep in mind these are just my opinions and there is no "right" way to setup a sump (provided that it won't flood of course :wink: ). HTH.

 

[Gr33k R33f]

Thanks for taking the time Chris! Great input.

I think I have read every piece of html that Melev has put up on his site, and I admit I am considering simplifying my design a bit in order to achieve a slower flow through the refugium as you suggested.

Originally I had designed two EHEIM 1262 to carry water between the sump and the tank, so I will most probably feed one of them to the sump and put the other one in a closed loop situation, just for water movement in the tank.

On skimmer space left in the sump, I have left twice the size I need for my skimmer (just in case I upgrade the skimmer later) but still 3/5 (aprox. 18 Gal) of the sump capacity is still devoted to the refugium part. Still part of the next redesign will aim towards more refugium space.

The sponge/bioballs in the first chamber is there for silencing the splashing water coming from the tank, and is indeed easily accessible for cleaning.

Another issue I am facing is light. I will illuminate the refugium space but I need to keep the light out of the rest of the sump to prevent algae from builting up in the wrong place as much as possible.

:arrow: Is there something I can safely paint the dividers with, so to block light?

Again thanks for the effort...

 

[ChrisRD]

If you're using acrylic to make baffles/dividers, you could use opaque colors where you want to prevent light from passing through. Also, opaque acrylic might come in handy for making a cover (or partial cover) over chambers that you're trying to shade from the fuge light.

If that's not an option and you need to paint them, there are paints that should work (marine-type stuff for boats comes to mind), but I've never use any of that stuff in a reef tank so I couldn't really recommend anything. You might try a search or posting in the main discussion forum (General Reefkeeping Discussion) or the DIY forum to get some feedback from people who have first hand experience with that.

HTH

 

[ChrisRD]

Here's a couple of threads that turned-up in a search about the paint thing...

http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=46768&highlight=paint

http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=39232&highlight=paint

http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=26399&highlight=paint

HTH

 

[Gr33k R33f]

CrisRD thanks for all your help.

OK, I have redeisgned the sump to something simpler, aiming in two directions:

1) Slow down the water current through the regugium
2) Control light (all plexiglass dividers, baffles etc are dark blue now)
3) Provide space and easy access to skimmer(s)
4) Re-arrange drip plate to prevent spillage outside sump

My new design below has the same compartments but needs less plexi cutting and glueing, plus the dark plexi wil restrict light out of the refugium area.

 

[ChrisRD]

Still a bit complex for my taste, but it could work. :wink: The one thing that I would question is the refugium outlet flow going through the carbon and phosban. I would think the granular media would prevent most critters from getting through to the pump and thus getting into the main tank (which is sorta the point of a refugium - to breed critters that supply the main tank with natural food).

 

[Gr33k R33f]

mistake duly noted!