Removing live rock die-off during cycling.

[Kasey]

Gang,

I've started my first saltwater setup last Saturday.

Up until today, my ammonia was .5, nitrite 0 and nitrate 0.

Today, my ammonia is .5, my nitrite about .12 and nitrate .25.

Is this the start of the second phase of my cycle, so to speak?

My other big thing is I have two small spongy tube critters with a little hole i can see open and close (obviously feeding) on a piece of live rock.

Today I noticed that one of them is now half covered in whitish fuzz and is shrivelled up - clearly dead to me.

Should I remove and discard dead material like this?

I'll get some specs and more photos up ASAP.


Thanks,

Kasey

 

[mr_X]

i wouldn't bother removing anything. IMO that amount of live rock you have is not going to be effective as a form of filtration, if that's what you are after.

 

[Kasey]

Just wondering if I had to remove the die off.

It's 30 gallons of water, 7 pounds of live rock, 4 pounds of base rock (that sat with the live rock at the store) and 39 pounds of sand (50/50 live sand and regular sand).

When I get more money, I'll get more rock. I want the rock for the beauty and creatures....


- Just noticed your in Bucks county! I'm from Levittown, small world.

 

[mr_X]

hmm..the "albany ny" threw me off. :wink:
i'm right in feasterville.

 

[Kasey]

Sorry, was born there - moved to Albany when I was 4.

 

[mr_X]

just watch what fish you buy, because alot of them will remove the beauty and creatures from your live rock. :wink:

 

[extremepb319]

When i had my tank cycling i didn't really touch anything at all. I also have a 30 gallon with about 15 pounds of live rock and I'm not sure if that means your tank is on the second phase because I did not know about that when mine started up. Eventually i got brown diatoms and figured my tank was fine. I'm sure your tank is cycling fine though it looks good so far (I like the ornaments). O and is there a reason your skimmer is on the front? jw...

 

[ChrisRD]

Normally while curing rock I will periodically "storm" the rock with a powerhead to get any loose/dead crud off of it. I then syphon out any gunk that settles on the bottom. This is why I prefer to cure rock in a tank/tub with no sand. I'll also remove anything that is obviously dead/decaying. IME this combined with a good protein skimmer will keep ammonia from building up and helps keep the hitchhiking critters/corals alive.

That said, in this case given the small amount of rock you've got in there, whatever little decay you have on it is probably not doing much.

 

[Kasey]

Thanks for the input guys.

When it comes time for fish, I'll choose wisely (ie ask you guys)!

I forgot the protein skimmer was so tall and should have moved the tank 6" to the right, away from the staircase - oops. I'll probably take the uv unit and move it horizontally, then put the skimmer on the back right.

As for the fake coral ornaments, it's different and can always be removed/changed. For the moment the damsels love to hide and play within the branches.

 

[Kasey]

So the verdict is in:

Some say remove

Some say don't

Since I'm for trying to keep any hitchhikers alive (i'll regret that statement later), I think I'll remove any larger dead items....

Anyone got an answer on my slight increase of levels? I'll post new results as time goes on.

 

[ChrisRD]

You don't have much rock in there and it will take a while for your sandbed to become active + you already have fish in there + you don't have a very good skimmer on the tank (no offense - we've all owned a seaclown at one point or another :wink so I'm not surprised about the increases.

Keep an eye on the NH4 (ammonia) - that's the critical one. NO2 and NO3 aren't very toxic in seawater so I'd be less concerned with those.

 

[ChrisRD]

BTW, if that NH4 reading is accurate it's already quite high. Supposedly as little as 0.1 ppm can be lethal to some fish/inverts.

 

[Kasey]

From the literature I've read about cycling, adding some damsels helps speed up the process. If I choose, my fish store will take them back for store credit when i'm "done with them".

I've also read about protein skimmers and since there isn't anything to "skim" yet, that shouldn't matter? The parents of a friend have a 30 gallon setup in perfect health and have never had a protein skimmer.

It seems I'm on the right track, maybe add more rock....

 

[ChrisRD]

From the literature I've read about cycling, adding some damsels helps speed up the process. If I choose, my fish store will take them back for store credit when i'm "done with them".

The idea that it's necessary to "cycle" a tank that's being started with live rock/sand is a common misconception IMO. When starting a system with something like a wet/dry or power filter there needs to be seeding process to get bacteria going. Live rock/sand come "ready to use" so to speak as they already contain lots of bacteria. If bioload is increased gradually, it's normal to not see any spike in NH4 in these types of setups which is a good thing, as even trace amounts of NH4 can be lethal to many of the organism you're trying to preserve in/on the live rock/sand.

Either way, using live fish to add bioload for cycling is unnecessary, and not very nice for the fish. Tossing an ordinary table shrimp or some fish food into the system and letting it decompose would accomplish the same thing without putting fish through toxic water conditions. If you do a search on the board here I'm sure you'll find more discussion on this topic.

I've also read about protein skimmers and since there isn't anything to "skim" yet, that shouldn't matter? The parents of a friend have a 30 gallon setup in perfect health and have never had a protein skimmer.

There's definitely something to skim in your water - thus the NH4 readings. A good skimmer removes wastes before they break down into nitrogenous compounds (like NH4). Unfortunately, that skimmer is a notoriously poor performer and you won't see as much benefit from that as you would a better design.

That said, there are other ways to run a tank, so yes, it's certainly possible to run a successful system without a skimmer. In fact, many people do without them on small systems (ie. "nanos") where large water changes are easy to perform. With anything other than a very small system, however, life is much easier (IMO) with a good skimmer. A skimmer provides other benefits as well (improved gas exchange, more stable pH, etc.). Another factor is what you're keeping too. If you have a very light bioload and/or organisms that are tolerant of less-than-ideal water conditions, having a poor skimmer (or no skimmer) is less of an issue.

HTH

 

[Lark]

The idea that it's necessary to "cycle" a tank that's being started with live rock/sand is a common misconception IMO. When starting a system with something like a wet/dry or power filter there needs to be seeding process to get bacteria going. Live rock/sand come "ready to use" so to speak as they already contain lots of bacteria. If bioload is increased gradually, it's normal to not see any spike in NH4 in these types of setups which is a good thing, as even trace amounts of NH4 can be lethal to many of the organism you're trying to preserve in/on the live rock/sand.

Chris -- this is very helpful. It's actually my situation right now. I've just started up an 80 gallon tank with 50 lbs of fully cured and established live rock. It's been in there for a little over a week, and I have had no measurable ammonia, nitrate, or nitrate. Should I assume there is no more cycling to be done? I will soon add about 60 lbs more of cure live rock that I'm getting mail order and should be about 2 days in transit. Assuming I clean it off when I get it, should I expect a spike after adding it? In other words -- how long after that to start safely adding my clean up crew?

 

[ChrisRD]

With fully cured rock purchased locally it's common to not see any spikes as there's no significant die off. If it's a new tank, it's still a good idea to wait a week or two to make sure things have settled in before adding any livestock. When moving existing tanks on several occasions I've just put everything back in the tank the same day (rock, fish, etc.) with no problems.

The cured rock you're getting mail order will probably have some die off from the trip. Strong circulation (the stronger the better) and a good skimmer can prevent any significant NH4 spike. In cases where the skimmer can't keep NH4 down, a large water change can set things right.

Even if you don't see any NH4 at all, I would still give it at least a week, preferably two before you try adding anything else. There's usually a lot more going on in a new reef tank than we are going to see on test kits.

 

[Lark]

Ok, thanks very much.

I seem to be getting some brown algea. Anything I can do to keep this down during the cycling before I add clean up?

 

[ChrisRD]

Diatoms - typically the first thing you'll see in a new tank - normal for initial tank stages. The cleaner you can keep the water the less you'll see, but to a certain extent they're inevitable. Source water can also be a contributor - best to use RO/DI or some other purified source. They will subside as the tank matures and some of your cleanup critters will also eat them. No need to worry about them for now IMO.

 

[extremepb319]

Yea I have that protein skimmer on my 30. It sometimes collects and sometimes doesn't. I switched out my stock airvalve with a better one and its been working better since. Not sure if that was just luck but i now have about half a cup full of skimmate in only 2 weeks or so. HTH

 

[Kasey]

Chris - thanks for the informative postings. Glad to know I joined a community that is open to newcomers and not bashing.

I'll be going out tomorrow to get 10 or so more pounds of live rock. I'll also relocate my powerhead for better flow over the rocks.

Then I'll let the cycle complete. I've got a full 10 gallon quarantine tank for future curing of rock....

Once things cycle, I only plan on getting some basic clean-up critters. I'll wait until Christmas time to actually purchase something "cool".

jw - Can you give me some more info on the airvalve you bought?