How often should I test ammonia/nitrate/nitrite?

[Capslock]

I have read once a week but I am looking for opinions on this forum.

Last nights readings were
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate 0.0
Ammonia 0.5
Salinity 1.025
Temp 78.6
45gal display, 20gal sump (8gal full)

I have 40 lbs of live sand in the display tank and 12 lbs (3 rocks) of live rock in the sump.

I imagine the ammonia is from die off from the live rock. I really don't mind testing everyday if that is what you guys feel is necessary, but if its too much let me know.

In addition, would buying more live rock this weekend be a bad call? Wait for this cycle to complete? Based on those figures what do you think the time estimate is on the cycle? 1 week? 2 weeks? 3 weeks?

Finally, this is probably a stupid question but that ammonia is way to high to purchase a couple fish? I do not want to buy fish to induce a cycle, I am more looking to make the tank look like something is in it (would make the girl happy) but if i cant i really have no problem in not adding fish; that can always wait.

Thanks

 

[metalac]

since it's a new tank it really doesn't matter how often you're going to test. I'd just do it every couple of weeks or so, unless you're really eager to start adding animals, but I'd HIGHLY discourage that .

Once the tank is established I'd do test once a week, just to make sure nothing weird happens that you can't notice just by looking at the tank.

If I was you I'd try and get ALL the live rock you need now. Adding live rock later when there is more things going on is pain in the butt. Nobody can tell for sure but your cycle will probably be about a month and then you'll get the algae bloom probably as well at the end of that.

 

[Capslock]

Metalac,

So essentially what you are saying is when it comes to nitrite/nitrate/ammonia levels nothing significant happens within a couple days time so it is better to test on a weekly basis?

That is completely fine by me.

As far as adding all the live rock first, I completely concur and it was my original plan. I was going to try to excite the lady, who is unhappy with me starting this hobby because of the apt layout, by adding a few fish for a better display; but she understands that this cant be rushed as much as I do.

Anyways so, would adding more and more live rock increase the length of the cycle or would I expect to see a faster cycle, or indifferent?



FIY: Although I don't care how long this takes, both my family and the lady's family are coming down (to meet for the first time) and for our birthdays the second week of November. Live rock is enough to make the tank not look so blah, a couple corals by then was my goal but again, I am not going to rush that.

 

[Anonymous]

I would get the live rock now, and test every few days, because I have a hard time being patient also! Getting more will not affect cycling time by much, I wouldn't think.

You can find some very hardy corals that can handle a less cycled tank, but make sure the ammonia and nitrite are zilch. Also, look for cheap frags!

I think you might be able to get a hermit crab and a pair of small, cheap fish (read: green chromis!) by the second week of November!

 

[Capslock]

Thats sounds great.

Speaking of frags; those are 'baby' corals right? Now by buying frags, you place them in the display tank and they grow from there correct?

I dont know much about that area yet

 

[metalac]

Thats sounds great.

Speaking of frags; those are 'baby' corals right? Now by buying frags, you place them in the display tank and they grow from there correct?

I dont know much about that area yet

they're not exactly baby corals, more like branches. So basically frag is a piece of coral that's been clipped off from a larger coral. It will continue to grow just like a regular coral, but it will take some time (months rather than weeks).

If you really want to get something in the tank then go for some crabs, snails and such, but again make sure ammonia and nitrIte are 0 just like SeahorseWhisperer said. Most hardy animals will handle nitrAte at around 10-20, but higher than that might be a problem.

Also make sure you're skimming. This will speed up your process. If you start getting an algae bloom, and most likely you will, then try and pluck algae as it grows, don't scrub otherwise you'll just get the nasties in the water

 

[ChrisRD]

Asssuming your kit/reading is accurate, your ammonia level is quite high - high enough to potentially kill some life in/on the live rock and sand. I would do a water change to bring it down ASAP.

This is why it's a good idea to run a protein skimmer from startup. With a good skimmer on there you might not have any ammonia reading at all right now, or at least a lower one, which could potentially save some desireable hitchhikers.

As for testing frequency - now is the most critical time to keep track of ammonia. With an established tank there's normally no ammonia detectable so it becomes less critical to track this later.

As for adding livestock - do NOT add any animals while you have detectable levels of ammonia. It's possible for some of the tougher animals to survive these conditions, but it's just a really bad idea...

 

[Capslock]

Metalac,

The one concern I have from what you had said is this:

By skimming I assume you mean through a protein skimmer?
I do not have one of them yet, I plan on purchasing one soon but, yeah right now its not there.
Ok, so that would speed things up.

Ive read plenty of reviews on skimmers; the last I looked at skimmers I was siding more to AquaC than to EuroReef.

For a 46gal with a 20gal (8gal full) sump what would you suggest?

I noticed from the previous owner of my tank the skimmer hung off the back of the sump. Is there a difference in quality from hang-over to ones that sit in the sump? Honestly his looked like a regular skimmer only hung in the back.

EDIT: Chris; understood, thanks.

 

[ChrisRD]

Go with the in-sump skimmer. Most hang-on skimmers are not great performers.

As for the brands you mentioned - for me there's no question - I would go with the Euro-Reef.

 

[Capslock]

Chris,

Thanks. Yeah I have read countless threads here saying go euro-reef.

I will need to look through all the products again. I have read aquaC was a good quality product at a less of a price.

I am not trying to go cheap at all, however I am running through a budget. If euro-reef was hands-down better in the long run products than I would wait a week to save more money for it.

 

[ChrisRD]

The smaller ones really aren't all that pricey:
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant ... _Code=EURO

The Octopus would be a decent choice for a budget skimmer:
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant ... de=Octopus

Personally, I'd probably spend the extra dough and get the ER as it's got a better quality pump.

 

[Capslock]

I think the reason the previous owner used a hang on skimmer in the sump is simply because of the dimensions of in-sump skimmers.

That euro-reef you pointed out chris is a good price. 9"x9" base though? I know skimmers are big by design, and I would just make the height requirement as well.

9x9 essentially fits the skimmer between the two drains with not much room for live rock. oh, and it would also need to be put next to the baffles, I dont know if that would matter. oh again, there is a heater that would need to be moved.

Anyways, could a protein skimmer ()particularly the euro-reef you recommended) operate outside of a sump with lines going to and returning from the skimmer to the sump?

If that was the case I could, asthetically put it about 3 feet away tucked in a corner, behind some stuff so it wasnt visibile and it wouldnt obstruct the live rock and the heaters.


Here is a picture of my sump for a better understanding
It is 30x12x20 - baffles are in the center.

EDIT: in the sump there are 3 pieces of live rock adding up to 12 lbs

 

[Anonymous]

A small money saving tip. As long as you are getting ammonia spiking, you will get nitrite/nitrate following, right? So, when I start a new tank I really only test for ammonia, knowing how the cycle works. When I test and don't get any, then I start testing for the others. It saves a bit of cash on test kits and time.

Sounds like you are taking things slowly, which is best. If you SigOther wants you to hurry, remind her of what an awful death it is for the fish in an ammonia/toxic environment! That always worked for me in the past when people would ask why only bare rock in the tank

 

[Capslock]

law,

she does understand the significance of the ammonia. Fortunately she is a bio major and she has actually been saying well what about this, what about that when I have not thought of those options yet; she is a good resource for this hobby I think.

One in particular she says well, even with the ammonia spike why don't you just get some sponges because they filter water and shouldn't be affected by the ammonia.

I say well I am not sure on that, nothing I have read points to that direction and all I can say is its a small contained space which is different than an ocean so unless I read otherwise I am not going to just try it.

Its a valid point though, even with the ammonia levels what about getting sponges? or hermit crabs i.e. detritious critters?

 

[Anonymous]

I would think sponges would also be affected by adverse water conditions, how they feed is irrelevant if systemically they can't handle it. Besides, your tank is not mature enough to produce natural food for sponges, which are indeed filter feeders. They aren't easy to keep in an established tank, and without the proper food source they will die, and MAN DO THEY FOUL your tank when they go! Now you could use supplements as far as food source, but until your tank matures all that will do is add to your problems by putting excess nutrients in. Patience! Nothing good ever happens fast in a reef tank.

As far as other critters get the ammonia down by doing a massive water change as ChrisRD suggested and be patient. Inverts are more tolerate of nitrate-but not for ammonia which is toxic.

 

[Capslock]

law,

understood. Take a look at my sump real quick, in order to get a protein skimmer in i would need to put it next to the pump or more the live rock from the left side to the right side.

Whats your thoughts on that?
Put the skimmer on the right side? The live rock on the right side?

 

[Anonymous]

I would move the rock. If you put the skimmer next to the pump, it will return lots of tiny bubbles to the main display. Put the pump and skimmer on opposite sides of the baffles. Also, put the return from the main display opposite the pump, for the same reason.

 

[Capslock]

understood.

I was thinking maybe the skimmer would go on the right and then the output tube goes to the left side of the baffles but that may end up counter intuitive.

Ill do it the way you suggested instead, makes more sense.

 

[Capslock]

So after about 6 days since the initial readings that I gave you, all of the tests are reading 0 now. About 5 days ago I bought about 10 lbs of live rock.

Seemed a bit fast from what I have read so far but then again, the only things in the tank is sand and rock.

 

[ChrisRD]

It's normal to see little or no spike in NH4/N2/N3 when setting up a tank with live rock/sand that's not having much die off.

A lot of what you read about "cycling" a tank applies to starting up a system that has some sort of inert biofilter media that needs to get seeded with bacteria to become active. Live sand/rock come with the bacteria already on/in them and so they're working from day 1. If the bioload being added from the dieoff doesn't exceed the capacity of the bacteria on/in the rock/sand, then you may never see any accumulation of these compounds (a good thing).