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Old 04-02-2016, 11:00 AM
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Nanobbules and strawman arguments

I have been involved in a few discussions of 'nanobubbles'. It is has been interesting because by simply asking for evidence, people seem to hate me. This is almost as interesting as it is distressing. Mostly they keep saying that people are negative without trying it and it it so cheap what is the big deal. When you point out that that is what snake oil salesmen say, you get told you are making personal attacks. It is very strange.

If you feel like seeing what I am talking about check out

http://www.reef2reef.com/threads/mic...3#post-2842332

http://www.reef2reef.com/threads/mic...224373/page-26
Old 04-02-2016, 12:56 PM
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Do you have evidence that it is bad? It may or may not be a snake oil. Let people try and see their results.
Old 04-02-2016, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WTBClownfish View Post
Do you have evidence that it is bad? It may or may not be a snake oil. Let people try and see their results.
I think this is a 180 from what I said above - I think you may have just done the very thing I am talking about as distressing. I didn't say that it is bad or that I think it is bad, rather that the language being used to support it is very much like what people selling snake oil say. Am I misunderstanding what you mean?
Old 04-02-2016, 01:19 PM
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This particular post is distressing to me:
http://www.reef2reef.com/threads/mic...3#post-2842332
Much snake oil language and much fallacy. Again, I am not discussing the process at all, rather the strategies being used to 'support' it.
Old 04-02-2016, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thales View Post
I think this is a 180 from what I said above - I think you may have just done the very thing I am talking about as distressing. I didn't say that it is bad or that I think it is bad, rather that the language being used to support it is very much like what people selling snake oil say. Am I misunderstanding what you mean?


I have no idea if it is good or bad. I am just saying let them try it out. If enough try and share their experience you will find out if it is a snake oil or has any benefits. Maybe they hate you because you are annoying and keep pushing the you need evidence argument. People what to try it out and discuss their results. So let them be. They don't want a Debbie downer complaining and being negative based on no evidence. The negativity and constant I want evidence crying doesn't add anything of value to the discussion and people don't want to hear it.

I skimmed through the threads and a few studies and ideas have been incorporated.

Last edited by WTBClownfish; 04-02-2016 at 04:47 PM..
Old 04-02-2016, 04:49 PM
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Interesting. Why is it ok for you to be a 'debbie downer' in this thread if it isn't ok for others to do it in other threads?
Would you say the same on the ginger cures ick threads? Or the can I put a Mata tang in a 10 gallon tank thread?
And, nowhere have I said it is bad nor have I said they shouldn't try it.
It seems also important to point out it is only two or three people that seem to be acting this way...the 'likes' in the thread seem the same for people asking for evidence (which is not just me) and people fan boying the method.

Last edited by Thales; 04-02-2016 at 04:55 PM..
Old 04-02-2016, 04:58 PM
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It is very difficult for hobbyist aquarists to provide solid evidence. Unless you're running side by side tanks with a control you are only going by your own observations. I fought with lower ph and a bad bought of cyano. Nothing helped until I started trying this. For me this worked and it worked well. I don't use it anymore because I've done a few other things and it's one less thing running, but I would do it again if the cyano comes back. Is that evidence? Not at all... but it's the start of the formulation of a hypothesis. So instead of getting angry at people who have seen results feeling challenged to provide something that no one would be capable of unless we have more evidence, try it. See if you have any improvement or not. It's not snake oil because no one is selling you anything. Everyone should have an air-pump around. What is there to lose except contributing to the collective knowledge. Some people were laughed at when they proposed sugar, peroxide, vinegar / vodka dosing and we've come to learn more by having more people participate.

Stamford is now doing studies out on the reef as well as in the lab. This is the type of real measurement and observation that until now only hobbyists have been trying with good experiences. Public Aquariums maintain huge surge devices to simulate the reef. If you don't see any improvement trying this or if you do have a negative experience, then simply stop. It's doubtful that there would be anything but a net neutral result.
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Old 04-02-2016, 05:10 PM
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Why is it that every time something new comes out it the same issue. Try it for your self if it work two thumbs up. If not you gave the college try . I have seen 1000 threads of this on face book. It's like buying horse power for your car . If every $5.00 add an added 5 horse power we all we be going fast. I have gone as trying a rice reactor before bio pellets and was happy , there isn't a magic cure in this hobby for everyone. Thales makes you think and every one is scared to do that . Not sorry Thales LOL that's my opinion and sticking to it. You all need to know your system . Let's share led lighting graphs why is that tank like your or the guy or gal down the street.
Old 04-02-2016, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnevo View Post
So instead of getting angry at people who have seen results feeling challenged to provide something that no one would be capable of unless we have more evidence, try it.
Who is angry? Why the assumption of anger? Fascinating.
Why the assumption that I haven't tried it?

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See if you have any improvement or not. It's not snake oil because no one is selling you anything.
I have never said it was snake oil - that is kind of the point of this thread. And, one of them will be selling something soon, unless they are pursuing a patent for fun.

Quote:
Everyone should have an air-pump around. What is there to lose except contributing to the collective knowledge.
That is just more anecdote - so what there is to lose is anecdote being accepted as fact for some of the miracle claims that are being attributed to the method.

Quote:
Some people were laughed at when they proposed sugar, peroxide, vinegar / vodka dosing and we've come to learn more by having more people participate.
Yep, and through people asking for more evidence, some of those things are in vogue and some are not. Don't forget the other things that don't work and and were not able to provide further evidence. We learn some from people participating and some from people asking questions and questioning claims.

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Public Aquariums maintain huge surge devices to simulate the reef.
This has nothing at all to do with the production of nanobubbles, so I don't see how this can be pressed into the service of supporting nanobubbles. Most public aquariums don't use surge devices.

Quote:
If you don't see any improvement trying this or if you do have a negative experience, then simply stop. It's doubtful that there would be anything but a net neutral result.
Yep. At the same time, heading off another possible feel good thing to try with little impact seems like a useful thing to do does it not?
Old 04-02-2016, 05:57 PM
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It's a textual forum and hard to read emotion. You yourself said you think people seem to hate you. I've been part and have seen many of these debates and they get heated. The topic is not how angry, resentful, hateful there is because most likely people are just passionate about their opinions. This is all subjective data, so rather than tear it down, try it out or don't.

You said "When people point out this is what snake oil salesmen say." and someone else mentioned snake oil. As far as surge devices, they can add a lot of aeration and mimic some of the natural aeration that occurs outside our glass boxes. I didn't say many or every, just that it exists.

The rest of your responses dealt with emotion and feelings. If you'd like to talk about this as a potential new method or practice then please pose questions or stimulate debate which so far you have not done.
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