about to take the plunge 2 SPS advice/review needed

[wereef]

Hello all and thank you for taking the time to field this LONG topic.

I am new to reefs.org but I have been a reef owner for 3 years.

3 years ago I set up my first reef. A 55 gallon AGA standard tank and diy stand. I began learning the basics and after my fair share of opps and ahhs I feal I am ready to move into the realm of SPS.

BIG NOTE TO SELF...DUMB IS HE WHO USES A NARROW TANK!

I plan to upgrade to a 90 Gallon AGA Reef Ready for my new tank.

I have read thread after thread gaining insight and collecting information. I've read books, sharpened my patience skills and put together a plan that I hope will yield a satisfying set up as far as equipment is concerned.

I plan to go with a 4-5" DSB so for all supporters, I'm with ya. Naysayers...I hope I'm not wrong but if so, you have my deepest apologies and will kick my self for not listening...

Anyway. What I want to ask is for a review of my planned system and for any other recommendations you may have or comments for or against my decissions. I am ALWAYS open for changes if they are warrented and I don't want to drop this amount of change on a guess. hence 6 months of planning and compairing products before typing this novel tonight.

One advantage to my initial setup, IMHO is that Inland Aquatics in Terre Haute, Indiana is my LFS as I live less than 5 minutes drive away so some "live" purchases should remain LIVE and I am planning to drive to Premium Aquatics for some other live stuffs to save costs and possible shipping probems by the shipping company.

My plan of equipment and initial stock is as follows:

90 G Reef Ready with a Durso Stand Pipe Mod

40 G Breeder aquarium for a sump

Two 20"L x 18"W x 12" tanks mounted at each end above the display tank as gravity feed refugiums reverse lit from the main tank by 55w PCs

PFO 2 bulb 250 Watt MH with 10k or possibly 20k...i like the blue look but am not possitive 20k 250w is wise on SPS setup..??

PFO 2 bulb VHO with 110 Watt Uri super actinics

AquaC ESV-180 skimmer fed by an Iwaki 20RLT

One Iwaki 20RLT providing circulation via a SCWD with returns mounted at corners.

Three MaxiJet 1200's in display tank for added circulation. one each corner and 1 in middle (undecided, I dont like seing pumps and I may opt for 1 more iwaki plumbed to a spraybar across the back of the tank)

One Magnum 350 Canister filter plumbed back to the refugiums via a t-line to provide flow to the refugiums and to hold carbon when needed.

Two 150W Won-Pro Titanium Digital Heaters located in sump

1/4 HP Pacific Coast inline chiller and controller to switch Heaters and cooler.

The stand will be a DIY that is 96" L x 24" W x 36" H
due to 24" book shelves on each end and an added 6" width to hide the plumbing from being seen behind the tank. This will also allow for plenty of cabinet space to house all equipment and provide the upper space needed for the refugiums. The lower cabinet will, for the most part, be open the full 96" length. The canopy will be 12" tall to allow room for the MH lighting and will include two 4" IceCap Smart Fans blowing air in to help cool the hood. Also the back of the canopy will be left open for air instead of being built closed.

My better half wants the bookshelfs, I want the space...good compromise!

The chiller in the cabinet will have a ductwork leading from it to the outside of the stand which will contain another fan right at the exit point to blow the hot air away from the cabinet and the cabinet will be fitted with a vent in the side to allow fresh air to freely enter the stand.

As for the in tank setup:

216 lbs of sand consiting of...

20 lbs Live sand from Inland Aquatics to seed the bed

120 lbs fine sugar sized pure caribbean aragonite sand

40 lbs Caribsea Reefsand

18 lbs Aruba Schell

18 lbs Pink Scallop

115 lbs of live rock made up of...

60 lbs Premium Figi Cured LR from PA

50 lbs Premium Marshall Cured from PA

5 lbs of rock rubble

the base rock will be supported off the glass by use of 1-1/2" PVC pipe that will be cut into 3" or so lengths to remain hidden under the bed but still support the rock off the bottom and will allow more surface area for the bed.

Salt will be Instant Ocean and I can buy premixed at Inland Aquatics so no need for mixing and waiting.. :wink:

Future addition of a Calcium Reactor will be a GEO single stage with a solenoid equipped regulator and 5 lb co2 bottle running C-ARM...

as for the life being introduced i am thinking about adding the following SLOWLY as the tank cycles and becomes stable...

Detrivore kit from Inland Aquatics

30 Nassarius Snails

10 turbo Snails

5 Trochus Snails

2 Queen Conches

2 brittle stars

1 sand eating cuke

2 sand dwelling cukes

2 mithrax Crabs

25 Blue leg Hermits

Again, Thank you all so much for taking the time to read this VERY Long post. I really appreciate any and all replies.

Sincerely,

Wereef


P.S.

I wonder if I can get a $5.00 discount at PA if I spend $2000.00

 

[Anonymous]

Well, I can honestly say this is the most well thought out plan I have ever read from somebody with 2 posts

Only a few things I would add to your plan:
Take the powerheads out of the tank, and do a "closed loop" instead; it's purely for aesthetic reasons, but it's worth it to do it now while the tank is still empty.

Look into creating a surge device in there somewhere. If you have the space to make above-the-tank fuges, you can make a surge. Try searching under "carlson" or "borneman" type surge device...you can also have your fuge be a surge device and fuge at the same time!

Some folks use 400Ws instead of 250Ws on a tank your size. I think SPS will do just fine in the top 12-15" of your tank. If you plan on keeping clams on the SB, you may consider getting 400s. The initial costs are comparable.

As far as Kelvin temp., it's mostly personal opinion. I have used 6500K with actinic PC, and they work well. I've also seen very nice tanks lit by 20000K. I personally like the look of 20K better. Apparently, SPS grows best under 6500K, but it's a bit yellow for my taste. My current SPS tank is lit by a 50/50, and I really like the color.

Hope this helps, Matt.

Oh yeah...
PS The very first SPS coral to add should be Montipora digitata--great starter SPS coral. I've had the most luck with the purple variety. Some other hardy starter SPS corals, IMO: Pavona cactus, Pocillopora damicornis, and *some* species of Acropora...I'm sure IA can definitely help you out with their hardier frags to start with.

 

[wereef]

Thank you for your reply/suggestions and compliment Matt.

If there is one thing I have learned in three years it is that planning and reading has to be the biggest priority I can think of.

As for your suggestions, I was leaning towards the 400w Halides also. I don't know if clams will be in my future but if the SPS works out, I want it lower than 15" and I figured 250w would be pushing it at that depth.

I too wanted a surge device in the system and have made and tested both Carlson and Borneman types and am pleased with the effects of both minus the bubble issues. The only reason I shy away from them in practice is because of a tendency for them to be irradic in operation. As an alternative, I have been looking into the SCWD "Switching Currrent Water Direct" device I found for sale at Premium Aquatics

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merc...roduct_Code=SQUID-WM&Category_Code=Wavemaking

The device alternates flow to two outputs and is simply water driven. This was what I was going to connect one of my iwaki 20rlt pumps to for circulation giving me a "surge" effect without buckets or bubbles.

I would like to do the closed loop system but there aren't any local business outlets here that will drill a tank. (I haven't checked to see if All-Glass can custom drill a new tank..maybe thats my solution.) If I get a closed loop, I WILL drop the powerheads in a heartbeat.

An added benefit with going closed loop is that I wanted to have a set of returns plumbed into the rockwork and behind it in order to have good flow even through the live rock. This would all be hidden by running the pipes under the sandbed and only the outlets would be exposed but hidded behind and within the rockscape.

If I couldn't do a closed loop, the plan for these returns would have ment bringing the pipes from the sump, over the back of the tank, down to the bottom and then out to the outlets. If i am correct in my thinking, in a power outage, the pumps would stop and the pipes would act as a siphon and drain the tank clean down to the lowest outlet (not good) the solution would be to trust in a 1 way valve on the line to keep it from back siphoning.

after you read that last part tell me if i'm right or not?? I think i am??

Thanks also for the starter coral suggestions, I wrote them down and will look into them a little more closely tomarrow.

All the best,

wereef

 

[Anonymous]

You're correct about it siphoning down to the lowest outlet. However, a check (or one-way valve) will NOT solve the problem. Usually these end up failing because encrusting sponges, feather dusters, etc. clog the moving mechanism. It may take a year or two, but eventually it happens. A much simpler method is to drill a small hole just beneath the water level in the return pipe. It will stop a siphon in the case of a power outage. It is imperative to keep this hole clean, and to periodically test it to make sure it stops the siphon.

Again with the surge device...if you read any of my previous posts you'll find I'm a huge fan of these. I feel there's no way any pump can possibly compare with one, in terms of total volume output or realism to natural waves. The borneman device creates far less bubbles than the carlson type, as it doesn't rely on sucking air to stop the surge. It's also less noisy. I truly don't understand how some people are willing to spend thousands of dollars on controllers, CA reactors, etc, for the good of their corals, yet they can't put up with a little noise!

I don't know what specific problems you've had that lead you to believe they're erratic, but I can certainly try to help out. I've been using both for a while now, and they definitely take some tim to "dial in", but I've found them to be fairly reliable once they are.

 

[wereef]

matt,

I think I figured out what the problem was with the flapper surge I built.

I didn't think about the backpressure caused by having the piping all lower than the flapper and it has caused me to have a considerable amount. I just re-did the outlet and brought the outlet up even with the flapper then back down to the tank. PRESTO...it works with little effort!

This thing just might be used afterall!

I didn't care for the slurpping from the carlson so i agree the flapper is the way i would go.

do you think leaving the return 1-1/2" pipe is two strong of a dump? the bucket set up would only be maybe 3" inches above the water line in the tank so velocity should be relatively low and I guess the amount of water dumping into the tank to be no more than 2 gallons per cycle.


Thanks again...

Wereef

 

[Anonymous]

It's pretty tough to get too strong of a surge, especially that low above the water level. FWIW, I have a 90 gallon with a 10 gallon surge. The surge device is approx. 4 feet above the water level, and it is plumbed with 1.5" pipe as well. I would go for a larger volume , but any amount will help of course. Have you considered putting the flapper in the fuge? I think it would be kind of neat to have a bit of rock with some attached algae in the surge, the flush would periodically flush animals into the main display. FWIW, you'll find that sponges, feather dusters, coralline algae, etc. will grow very well in a surge device because of the high flow.

 

[wereef]

Im working on a design for the "flapperFuge" now. I named it so its my (c)
:lol:

the size requirement for the refugium placement is the reason for such a low water volume but like you mentioned, any will be better than 0.

I am kicking around adding a partion at the end of the fuge for the dump portion to work in. Getting excited over the project actually, If done corectly. I will have 1 at each end of the display tank. I wondered about the 1-1/2" pipe because of being such minimal volume but think the effect of the surge coming from this size pipe will be esthetically pleasing to the eye. Plus abs fitting can be used at the last elbow thats black so it will blend in to the black background I plan to have.

Changing the curent point of discussion in this thread, does the rest of the setup sound solid?

I know I will change the Mh to 400w 20k...saw a set up this afternoon with it and it cinched the deal.
Plus I am getting pretty well convinced I am dropping the 3 maxijets / SCWD and going to make up for it by way of closed loop and surges.

Thnx for your ongoing replies

Wereef

 

[Anonymous]

Well I'd say you're pretty well set. The only advice I can offer is to get good testing equipment (pH monitor, Ca, Alk, etc.--I like the Salifert brand, refractometer) and I assume you're using an RO/DI and TDS meter for your source water. I can tell you know your stuff, but ya never know

Your lighting will be more than adequate.

The only other thing that I can think of is the mithrax crabs you plan on adding...some folks have issues with them, although I never have. Also, by briitle stars I assume you mean anything BUT green brittles.

A great little snail to add to your tank is a Strombus species sold by www.ipsf.com They sell detritivore kits as well. These snails reproduce like you can't believe. I started a tank 2 years ago with a dozen of these guys, and have introduced their offspring to countless tanks where they continue to reproduce. If you check my "6 gallon tank" link, there are pics of them laying eggs somewhere. Another great snail is Stomatella varia, which will also reproduce in your tank.

BTW, Schedule 80 pipe is great for inside the tank, but it gets expensive! I'm going to go ahead and archive this thread, as I feel it's a great setup to follow for future SPS tanks. Feel free to continue posting setup details, pictures of everything, etc. I'd really like to see how this tank turns out.

Matt

marked for archiving

PS
What fish were you planning on?

 

[wereef]

I'v also read both good and bad reviews of mithrax crabs but I like as much diverity as I can have so I am willing to try them. we'll see

as for the Brittle stars, the ones I have in mind aren't green.

Fish? you mean there are other things besides equipment choices I had to decide on! :lol:

I think I got some good information from the guys at IA about suitable choices for my reef. the list here is not intended to be read as meaning put all these in but meaning I could add a certain number of any of the following as long as one type of fish will happily live with the other in the same system and if the system is of addequate size to house the animal .

(did that sound confusing...you should have been with me when I asked the guys at IA what "pretty" fish to use. :lol: The answer was 2-1/2 hours of beeing given a marine biology lesson ...JUST KIDDING IA, YOUR HELP WAS/IS PRICELESS)

Simply stated, all these types were told to me to be reef safe choices:

Angels
Anthias
Basslets
Blennies / Gobies
Cardinals and choromis
Clownfish
Rabbitfish and Tangs
Wrasse

Looks like a short list but as I found out, there are alot of varieties of these types.

The only "for sure" fish that will be in my tank will be my mandarin. He has been with me since the beginning 3 years ago so he gets a bigger house!
I was dumb in the beginning and actually added him to my 55 one month after setting it up! don't ask me how this poor little fish survived but he did and I now owe him. (lesson learned...Don't just buy the fish cause he's Pretty)


All the best,

Wereef

 

[Anonymous]

Well, the only thing I can agree on with the fish choices in some of those groups is that they have reefsafe *members*. For instance, most angels are definitely NOT reef safe and will attack corals of any kind. Some folks are having luck with Euxphiphops navarchus and Pomacanthus imperator in SPS only tanks, you may want to check this out. Other than these and the Regal angel (forget the species name, Pygoplites something?), most large angels will pick at corals or clams. Centropyge angels are an "add with caution" fish. Some can be absolute terrors, some are, well, angels. Centropyge argi is one of the best as far as reefsafeness. Genicanthus angels are a little less frequently seen but are almost always perfectly reefsafe.

I know this is being nitpicky, but some blennies are exclusively predatory on SPS polyps. It's unlikely you would ever see the specific species, but it's a possibility. The majority are usually good citizens, although I've heard occassional stories of them nipping clams and corals.

Also, if you're going to be adding that DSB, some gobies will work very hard to decimate your infauna, which sort of defeats the purpose. Rob mentions this in his article. FWIW, the goby pictured under my name is Stonogobiops yasha, a perfect little fish for a peaceful tank.

Tangs will very rarely nip at clams if very hungry. In addition, consider the max size of any species you plan on adding.

Some wrasses are completely NOT reefsafe. The best choices are in the genera Parachelinius and Cirrhilabrus, but there are other notable ones as well. Keep in mind that some reefsafe wrasses (and other fish) will pick at copepods, amphipods, and other critters on the substrate which your mandarin is eating, and will be much more efficient at eating all of them than the mandarin.

Whew...I should be getting paid for this

 

[wereef]

I probably should NOT have generalized my fish list in the above post.



the only Angel fish we had discussed were dwarf and flame and the flame was a may or may not be safe.

The only gobies I plan to keep are the mandarin and a "lemon head" in the wrasse dept. I was leaning towards a fairy wrasse.

Here is the list of the fish I plan to have.

1 Mated pair of black clowns

6-10 green chromis

2 Anthias

1 mandarin

1 fairy wrasse

1 "lemon head" goby

1 tang - hippo

oops, I totaly forgot to mention my urchin as a tankmate. he's a royal blue tuxedo.

These should all play nice right?

Wereef

p.s.

Checks in the mail :wink:

 

[billyzbear]

I'm no pro but I have read from a few places that you want the turn over rate 1:1 for the refugium. I know many people do more, I thought I would mention it. I to plan on making an above tank refugium. Not sure if I can make a good surge device but I mite try.

 

[RustySnail]

Couple of things...

250's over a 90g should be fine. I am running the 250's over my 150g and getting good coloration/growth. Clams are fine at the bottom of my tank. I recommend using the IceCap or LN electronic ballast (also sold by hellolights); they are much more energy efficient than core/coil ballasts.

You might also consider a good titanium probe chiller; the advantage is that you can regularly clean the cooling coil. With a flow-through chiller you gain a little efficiency, but that efficiency gets lost somewhat if it gets calcium build-up inside the heat exchanger.

What is the aruba shell and pink scallop for? I would not use anything but sand, because larger particles will sift toward the top layer over time. Also if you use too much big stuff the sandbed will get 'locked' together like a gravel road.

Nice skimmer choice. I would up the flow from your pump or maybe do a closed loop in addition to the sump return/scwd.

Your latest stocking list looks good too... Add the mandarin and wrasse after your sandbed population is plenty established (6 months min).

 

[wereef]

Thanks for the advise on the chiller Rusty, I hadn't really thought of the buildup issue in the inline.

still tinkering with the surge idea. I really need to quite this thing down.. blurp blurb...blubbbblubb..thrawk..petwy
:lol:

just a thought, but if you run a wavemaker, isnt the effect the same as a surge except that you dont have noise and bubbles?

wereef

 

[Anonymous]

Not really. The amount of flow generated is really huge and random, but the velocity is not that high. This is a good thing. In general, wavemakers with PHs produce high velocity laminar flow. The Tunze brand Turbelle powerheads with controllers are very nice and comparable to a surge device, but are super expensive. Something else you may check out is the wave2k ( www.wave2k.com ) I can't speak for their long term reliability; I've only had one for a little while. However, they produce tremendous flow.