KathyC

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Nice progress Simon...except for that water in the bathroom...lol

Do you think the smoother angles in the bathtub will give you much of a different effect than the sharper edges in the tank when that wave starts moving?


I may have missed it but once the plunger is in place how difficult will it be to adjust the frequency/power of it?


Looking forward to your updates! :)
 

qy7400

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Hey Simon,

Good to see progress on the project. I remember when you were discussing this idea at Alantis the placement of the plunger created different wave patterns, any tests or idea of the wave pattern with the external setup since the water will no longer be pushed in a 360 degree pattern.

Joe
 

Simon Garratt

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Thanks for the kind words folks.

kathy.


I'll be able to adjust the frequency or speed of the stroke via the variable speed motor that will drive it. The length of the stroke will be adjustable by moving the rocker arm drive point along the arm, either towards the pivot end to lengthen the stroke, or away from the pivot point to shorten it. Generally Im looking for a 6-8" stroke length. (stop sniggering)

Yep you are quite correct that the smooth profile of the bath does allow the mass movement of water to a better degree than a square glass box. In testing though ive found that its a minimal affect to be honest. more importantly you have to consider the affects of any rock etc, as its uneven surface soakes up the energy you are putting in to a much higher degree than the shape of the container itself. The more rock you have, the more energy is required to drive the wave (and water mass) across and around its surface.


So to test the theory I went to one of my local dealers to have a play, and borrowd one of his LR vats to try the plunger in with some rockwark to add resistance.

I deliberately chose a vat which was basically full of LR (minus a small area at one end so i could fit the plunger inside) becouse i wanted to see a worst case scenario where mass water movement would be hinderd severly by so much obstruction. I still managed to get a standing wave of about 2".

On one hand I was surprised that the rock would have so much effect with regards to dampening the energy within the vat, but in retrospect i actually think it was a fairly valiant effort on behalf of the plunger to get any significant degree of motion going with so much obstruction to work against.

In the real world you would never have a tank full to bursting with so much rock so this was a test of extremes to be fair.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3z6uTf3hhM


I did a second test as well with a stream pump running from the opposite end, but to be honest it made little if any diffference. I think the greatest hurdle is simply leaving enough open water after rockwork etc for the energy wave to work from one end to the other with as little hinderance as possible..( purely hypothisis), but im hazarding a guess that if I'd taken 50% of that rock out, Id have seen a significant increase in wave generation for the same energy input.

What was noted though was the sheer amount of crud stired up within the Vat..It was mud brown by the time I'd finished. (much to the shop owners disgust)

Regards
 
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cowfish

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Hi Simon,

Glad to see this project coming along so nicely. Loved your talk at Atlantis! I'm interested in trying your wavemaker (75g all-glass tank; reef)- would you mind giving a parts list so I could try building one of my own? If not, I'll wait for the mass produced unit and purchase it from DrsFS ;)

Thanks,
Eric
 

Simon Garratt

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Well its all still in the testing stage at the moment Eric. I still have to sort the motor drive and positioning to make sure the unit is adjustable for multiple scenarios. I dont have any problem with giving out a list of parts but i'll wait untill this one is finished and tested before doing it to ensure it does what it says on the tin and is reliable.

If some manufacturer does want to take it on at a later stage i have no issues with helping out in an advisory capacity.

Thanks very much for the compliments regarding Atlantis...It was a huge pleasure and honour.

Regards
 

Simon Garratt

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simon out of curiousity and simplisity, why not just do a large surge box which would give basically all the flow allow you to replicate high and low tide

The trouble with the surge boxes as far as im aware is that you cant realy combine surge with tide rise and fall unless you have a complicated valve and pump assembly that alters the draw from the main tank over the tidal phase whilst keeping a constant surge..Pulling water away from the main tank and dumping it back in again a few mins later isnt a tidal simulation. its just surge. and its not representative of wave action either realy becouse the timing is just way too slow. (unless you use a horrendously big pump to shift a hell of alot of water up to the surge device in a very short time.

The idea behind this method is to be able to draw water away and back to the main aquarium in 'varying quantities' across a month, but also over a good 6 hour period twice a day. although you are drawing and replacing twice a day, you are also altering the 'amount' drawn each day via computor controled timings, so you get a monthly increase and decrease in the lowest tide mark across that period as you would in the wild (admitedly in a more condenced form). Becouse of the weir, its impossible to go the opposite way and increase the high tide mark, but you cant have it all ways unfortunately.

Imagine if you will:

at the start of the month Ill probably only be pulling out a couple of inches twice a day over a 6 hour tidal phase. Over the course of the month that daily amount will vary to the midway point in the month where Ill be pulling out 6-8" of water, with it decreasing again towards the end of the month.

It sounds complicated but its not actually. As long as you know how many ltrs an hour your removing (flow rate), you simply adjust timings on the controler to run pumps long enough to tranfere X amount of water out and back over that period.

The plunger idea is simply a way of seperating surge and wave action away so it can run independently of the tidal phase...

i honestly cant think of an 'easy' way, to combine the two methods in one unit.

regards
 
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Simon Garratt

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Ok so its time for an update.

Things have been progressing nicely. so this is where things are at at present.

The image below shows how the tidal transference system works.


tide system.jpg


In the image above,

Pump A controls the transfere of water 'from' the main display, into the side compartments that are linked by a common balance pipe. (Generating the low tide phase)

Pump B Controls the transference of water 'back' to the main display. (generating the high tide phase)

Both pumps are controled by computor for set durations with maximum flow rate limited via control taps. In both cases (after some testing and setting of the valves) it now takes a total of 3 hours to transfere the maximum movable volume to or from the main display, giving a 6 hour rise and fall over a full tidal duration.

In the real world it would be more realistic to have a full 12 hour tidal rise and fall, but I have to think about running water from the display to the sump for at least half the time, so 2x 6 hour tidal cycles with 2x 6 hour tank to sump (high tide) phases between are at this point deemed more practicle.

Both pumps are also backed up on industrial maintanance free 3kw float/bilge pump switches that negate the possibility of a pump over running, to the degree it runs dry, or over fills the side compartments. These float switches are basically completely sealed ball bearing tilt switches that move up and down with a rising or falling level, switching contacts as soon as they hit a certain angle. They are also quite large and boyant so they arnt affected by coraline algae growth or perching snails etc and have no moving parts that need servicing unlike the normal aquatic float switches we see, that use a float that slides up and down a shaft.

Additionally to this, the main return pump will be triggerd by a third maintanance free float switch that will only allow the return pump to come on once the tank is back up to its full high tide setting, ready to flow over the weir, through the sump system and back to tank.

The second reason I wanted to use the float switches is that it allows me to add in the monthly rise and fall of the luna cycle.

Although im still working on the exact timings etc, the general premis is that over a daily cycle the tank will run 2 tidal phases of 6 hour duration, 12 hours apart.

The amount of transference (total daily drop and rise in water level) will vary, starting of at the beginning of a 28 day period with a small degree of transference, (maybe an inch or two drop on each tide at the start and end of each cycle) peaking in the middle of the 28 day period with a maximum drop of around 9" each tide over the full 6 hours, reducing again towards the end of the 28 day period where the cycle starts again.

With the switches in place, it allows me to transfere water out for say 15 min each time at the start of the month giving only a small drop in water depth per bi-daily tidal cycle, but i can still run the return cycle for longer. Even though it only takes 15 min to refill again, the switch overides the controler. (this basically saves me having to mess around exactly matching whats pumped 'out' to whats pumped 'back' using two different pumps that may have very slightly differing return rates...basically the switches soak up the variance defaulting the system back to full high tide at the end of each cycle 'regardless' of how much or how little water has been moved, or how long the pumps have been 'asked' to run for via the controler to counter any variances. (im thinking here of gradual reductions in flow rate over long periods as bio buildup in the pipes etc gradually reduces flow rates slightly)....I can simply tell the pump that fills the system back up, to run for an extra 15 min over and above what it 'needs to' with the float switch turning it off regardless as soon as the system is back to full high tide. 6 months down the line, it may need 10 of those extra 15 min due to flow reduction in the pipework, but it will still trip off when required.....It just saves alot of faffing about trying to get things too exact which is a virtual impossibility imo.


So, wheres it all at at the moment....well, the tank is now built and full of fresh water for testing, and the full tidal rise and fall has been running twice a day for the last week or so whilst Ive been fine tuning the float switch limits etc.


Ive also been playing with the wave plunger which is now installed at the back of the tank, although still without motor as thats another job that still needs sorting. plus ive decided that the 50mm feed pipe isnt big enough to allow smooth transference of water backwards and forwards..

PC153469a.jpg



Basically I found that having a 50mm pipe plumbed to a 150mm plunger barrel meant that water had to accellorate down the pipe as it was pushed/pulled causing a fair bit of resistance at the beginning and end of each stroke...basically the water rushing along the narrower pipe was carrying so much innertia it wanted to carry on, even though the plunger was trying to change direction...so the cure will be an upgrade prior to final filling to 3" pipe.

despite this though. on testing I was still getting a good 4" wave front to back when pumping manually, so i recon a good 6" wave is possibly on the cards once its all re plumbed and dialed in on a proper motor with exact timing.

Here's a quick Video of the wave action during testing.

Lets get jiggy wid it..

looking along the tank from one end...to give an idea of perspective, the angled wier plate on the far left is 6" high. Note the wave height difference between the front of the tank (left) and back of the tank. (right)...which as i suspected it would be, is caused by the tank narrowing towards the back compressing the wave as it travels.


So, thats how things stand at present...still lots to do.

I'll bang up some shots of the tank and transfere sections tommorow after ive recharged the camera.

Kind regards and a very happy new year to all the MR members and admin...
 

lindsay

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Great tank build Si,looking forward to seeing it all come together when finnished,its going to make a great video,esp at low tide.
 
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Wave creation - Plunger

Hi Simon,
I have just joined this forum and I must say that your thread made me join.

I have kept up to date with your own website and other postings on various forums and I am really a inspired by your efforts and dedication, plus the free invaluable help and information you have provided over the years.

I am really interested in this new design you have in mind, especially the Plunger idea for wave creation. It is similar to what I was designing (on paper).

I was wondering what you intend to use to drive the Plunger? Many have suggested some sort of piston, electronically driven.

Any ideas?

Thanks.

DX
 

Simon Garratt

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Hi DX.


Hi Simon,
I have just joined this forum and I must say that your thread made me join.

I have kept up to date with your own website and other postings on various forums and I am really a inspired by your efforts and dedication, plus the free invaluable help and information you have provided over the years.

I am really interested in this new design you have in mind, especially the Plunger idea for wave creation. It is similar to what I was designing (on paper).

I was wondering what you intend to use to drive the Plunger? Many have suggested some sort of piston, electronically driven.

Any ideas?

Thanks.

DX

Firstly many thanks for the kind words. Its very nice to be appreciated although in all honesty, I veiw it as simply sharing experience for the betterment of our great hobby and something we should all do in whatever capacity we can..

As for the Plunger motor.

I'll be using something like this. (i still need to choose one with enough range to run across several speeds, from sub 50rpm up to around 65rpm for my size tank)...

befd_12.jpg


basically a 12V motor with gearbox to give a good degree of torque but variable so it can be set at the correct frequency to drive the plunger.

It will be linked via a 2 pully belt assembly that drives the rocker arm up and down, so if the plunger jams for any reason, the belt will just slip or snap rather than seizing and burning out the motor. alot of stuff like the pully's etc can be aquuired via RC model shops etc.


As for the rest of the system, here are some images of the tide simulation.

ive been running maximum tide in/out twice a day for the last two weeks or so, just so i can see what if any problems are likely to arrise with the joints etc being put under varying pressures, but so far so good with no signs of any problems. not even a squeek..so remember...these images are of the full tide scope. they arnt indicative of whats going to happen daily...The range of tide in/out volumes will vary over the course of a 28 day period with this extreme example just being a phase that will be encounterd only a few days out of the 28

Here is one of the end compartments which holds the two water exchange pumps and main float switches (i did say they were heavy duty)..

This is at high tide, so the compartment (along with the one at the other end of the tank which is joined via a balance pipe) are both drained with the lowest float switch shutting off the pump to stop it running dry. (it leaves about 2" of water at the bottom).

Float switch high tide.jpg



This is at low tide with the upper float switch cutting off the pump that feeds away from the main display...(note the lower float switch has floated upwards, re-arming itself ready for the next downward cycle)....the upper switch is just wired the opposit way round where a rise to a given angle shuts it off.

Float switch low tide .jpg



Here are some images of the tank from above at high and low tide.



High tide.



top veiw tide in2.jpg



Low Tide.


Tide out end compartment_1.jpg


Just an idea of the flow.....this is with just 2 of the 4 sequences running and no wave action.....looking forward, im guessing at this stage that i have more than enough capacity to cater for some very high energy requirement corals as far as flow is concerned in the intertidal zone. Its easy to turn down the amount of energy input, but not much good when you start off with a defficit, so im quite pleased with the potential here at this stage.

and a couple of veiws showing the tank at its lowest tide point at this stage. Obviously once rock etc is added and (with any luck) corals growing into the intertidal zone, then the amount of displacement will increase slightly giving a greater effect, but it was never intended to fully drain the system too far...I want to retain at the very least, 50% of the available water depth even on an extreme low tide, with some rock and applicable corals becoming exposed... but not all.

water flow tide out.jpg


Full tank tide out.jpg



so thats where its at at this stage...testing is just about complete, so its getting close to the stage i can drain it down, do the mods to the plunger feed pipe and then refill with salt water and LR..

then the fun begins...

regards and thanks for reading so far....
 
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Many thanks

Thanks for the very detailed reply.
I have started my DIY parts list from the info you have provided and I will follow this deligently. I will wait for your results before delving into mine though.

I did try the "manual" plunger experiment on my tank using a 40mm diameter Acrylic rod and I was really impressed by the amount of wave water movement.
I then turned my 6 powerheads off and tried it again.
Even more impressed, especially with the amount of "curd" my manual driven experiment was churning up.

(I had made a short list of Wave Making power heads to buy but now I will wait as they are soo expensive.)

Your creativity always impresses me.

I will be posting a link on the MD Forum so people there can follow your build..Hope you don't mind.

Cheers.
 

Simon Garratt

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Hi DX.

As soon as ive got it all working to the degree im 100% confident with it, Ill post up a DIY thread on building your own with all the parts etc listed.

No problem with you linking to other forums, that why we are all here after all.

Regards
 

lindsay

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Was good talking the other day Si,the tidal affect you have created is working well,bet your pleased with it,that motor you have posted a pic of above looks a lot like a motor used on windsreens on boats?
 

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