Cyanide Damage Evidence?

[mkirda]

Same thing with all the vast killing this hobby is conducting on the reefs, you have heard rummers .but have never actually seen verified destruction.{Im beginning to think NO ONE has}

Kalkbreath,

Take a look again at the pictures. Gee, verified destruction that you are claiming doesn't exist, right there on your computer screen...

I'll make the point again, at the risk of sounding like a skipping record-
You claimed the hobby does no damage. I provided evidence that it does.
You obfuscated the issue by trying to diminish the evidence, stating that you want evidence of vast stretches of white death. No one here ever claimed that the hobby was causing that- ONLY YOU!

Until you start looking at the evidence rationally, instead of rationalizing it all away, you will always lack credibility, Kalkbreath. Maybe you should apply for al-Sahaf's old job- seems that post of Iraqi Information Minister is newly open. You'd be a natural.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Look , If Two partialy harmed corals is all the harm we have done..............then I would be more concerned with the many other ways man hurts the reefs and stop distacting the public from ending the polutin and seafood raping of the reefs......... I still feel that the photos you gave look more like the area an eel has rubbed as it goes in and out of the hole............cyanide always either kills the whole colony or not at all...........so you may or may not have found ANY cyanide damage....... either way you proved my point that this hobby most likely disturbs a very smalll number of corals.........even in those few contries that cyanide is used.
_________________
ACS bolt

 

[mkirda]

{snip} look more like the area an eel has rubbed as it goes in and out of the hole............cyanide always either kills the whole colony or not at all...........

Eel rubbing?!?!? Omigod, did I actually read that right?

Show me one, just one, reference that shows ANY coral has bleached due to "eel rubbing"!?!?!

That is the most ludicrous thing you have ever written, Kalkbreath. And that is saying something...

As far as cyanide effects on coral, you do not have your facts straight either.
Corals squirted with cyanide do not die enmasse unless the entire coral was exposed. Often only a portion bleaches, as per the photos. But why would you know this? You never responded when I offered to send you copies of papers regarding cyanide damage to corals... It is doubtful you ever read a single one.

You accuse me of misleading people while it is you doing this, by saying that cyanide does not damage corals. Then (in this post), you state that cyanide kills corals completely. The only reason I can fathom for your 180 degree change of heart is that you do finally understand that cyanide damages corals. For that, I give myself a small pat on the back. I'm glad you finally see the error of your ways, Kalkbreath.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

You have never seen the wear marks around an entrance to an eel den.......................or Octopus........... or any of the other animals that seem to squeeze into the smallest of holes? You have never seen a bald spot on a newly imported coral {where it rubbed in the bag during export}? Yes cyanide kills corals.and even divers..............But so does rubbing...............Did you photograph the damage done by the net fishermen and his entanglement? The areas he handled and rubbed will most likely bleach white as well...............Have you also never heard of all the dying coral in tourist areas.where the sport divers touch and rub the coral to death? You will find a lot more of those bald spots in "eco-tourism" areas then you will in our hobby collectors reefs! Like that great vice Presidential debate..........".I Knew Cyanide destruction personally......., and you my friend are no John Kennedy"
_________________
Dilaudid Rehab Forum

 

[clarionreef]

I'm with Kalk,
We must do something about the new danger to the reefs he has singlehandedly exposed...eel rubbing! Stopping the eel rubbing is going to take a long time. We need research, an infrastructure to campaign with and serious grant money.
Soon, entire careers, big salaries and major funding may arise to deal with this new threat to our beloved reefs. Thanks Kalk. Lets start a new thread on this and finally get serious.
I have often wondered about these partially burned corals but lacked the insight, the courage and the vision to bring it forth. Mike, others and I imagined it to be cyanide burn but we were apparently mistaken...Now, a visionary has arisen in the East to show us the way.
Count me in for support.
Steve
PS.Seperate group or could AMDA host an eel rubbing section on its website to help kick things off?

 

[Kalkbreath]

So Steve , are you on the record, stating that those photos look like Cyanide fishing?
_________________
Honda VTR250

 

[clarionreef]

Kalk,
Although 100 other things kill corals in the Philippines not to mention Indonesia...the routine application of sodium cyanide to collect many fish for export , unlike dynamite, siltation and eel rubbing implicates us all.
This is the damage WE pay for and subsidize. This is the damage we promote and allow, wittingly or unwittingly. A defacto defense of the practice must be on account of some need to whitewash the guilt from ones own hands. Instead of minimizing and covering for the crime, why not use that intellect to help pressure against and eliminate it?
Why be an apologist for a discredited and guilty cartel of coral killing dealers? Why not help guide them to reform? Clearly it is the direction of where the tide of opinion is moving.
And if one day we remove the stain of cyanide use complicity from our industries practices...good. We'll remove one more assault on the reefs productivity. They don't need futher abuse from a trade that has enough issues even when it behaves.
Steve
PS Any lackey or toadie can run interference, whitewash and fib for the status quo...
It takes a lot more courage to tell the truth...which is actually where our best interests truly lie.
Steve

 

[Kalkbreath]

Also, .................I bet if we were to get a photo of that coral that was entangled with the net...........it too would have white areas and could be deemed cyanide damage?
_________________
Chilean Forum

 

[Kalkbreath]

Kalk,
Although 100 other things kill corals in the Philippines not to mention Indonesia...the routine application of sodium cyanide to collect many fish for export , unlike dynamite, siltation and eel rubbing implicates us all.
This is the damage WE pay for and subsidize. This is the damage we promote and allow, wittingly or unwittingly. A defacto defense of the practice must be on account of some need to whitewash the guilt from ones own hands. Instead of minimizing and covering for the crime, why not use that intellect to help pressure against and eliminate it?
Why be an apologist for a discredited and guilty cartel of coral killing dealers? Why not help guide them to reform? Clearly it is the direction of where the tide of opinion is moving.
And if one day we remove the stain of cyanide use complicity from our industries practices...good. We'll remove one more assault on the reefs productivity. They don't need futher abuse from a trade that has enough issues even when it behaves.
Steve
PS Any lackey or toadie can run interference, whitewash and fib for the status quo...
It takes a lot more courage to tell the truth...which is actually where our best interests truly lie.
Steve

Yes, the truth! You filling the minds of the public, the Government, thousands of future hobbyists with the notion that , this hobby can have any noticeable effect on the health of PI reefs or the thousands of reefs this hobby does not fish from.{98%} Is far from the truth! You are unknowingly setting up this hobby to certain death with the sour visions average Joe or Joe Congressman congers up in his mind about this hobbies effects on the reefs. False claims about death and destruction that no one seems to be able to photograph is hardly a truthful approach?
_________________
Honda XRV750

 

[clarionreef]

As I said in the first line...
" although 100 things may kill corals..."
... including inexperienced collectors tangling and ripping their nets...only to learn quickly not to do that if you they don't want to waste time sewing them back up. Thats so miniscule compared to the wholesale application of poison by a few thousand collectors as to be in the category of..."Oh yeah? Oh yeah mister smarty pants!...Well how about this!
Wholesale, institutional and systemic cyanide damage is what needs to go. Then, we can all do business with a clearer conscience.
Steve
ps . Eel rubbing and fine [weak] mesh net damage...OK fine.

 

[clarionreef]

Kalk,
If the damage is so small as you suggest, then it should be an easy matter to clean up w' the coming trainings.
Steve
PS. Hide the damage and reconfigure our true opinions to fit some economic or political convenience? Oh...OK. I'll sell out this week. Any offers?

 

[Kalkbreath]

No, its only our part of the damage that is so small...........its the fact that it is very hard to tell our hobbies damage from the seafood industries greater part. Have you thought out the simple fact that there will never be a time when MAC can show the rewards of its collection practices even if followed? Do you truly feel there will ever be a point when the reefs in PI will have more fish due to MAC collection standards? Or do you think there will ever come a day when no new bleaching from Cyanide fishing will dot the reefs? Even if we were to end collection entirely.A groupof cyanide seafood fishermen can wipe out fish populatios that took years to regain in one fishing trip!......the fish populations and the cyanide use would still continue even in this hobbies total absence........So I see a point in time where critics of this hobby will, even after Every Fish is MAC certified these critics will be able to point to the continued cyanide use {even if it is not our collectors} and the over all ill health of the reefs {once again not due to our hobby, but from the pollution, food markets etc.} As a sign that our collection reforms have helped nothing........Why not focus on collectors like Chip and Dave, David and Steve............As OUR Hobbies collectors?..................MAC setting up in PI insures that MAc can never display the rewards that proper collection brings........because the gains will certainly be overshadowed by the destructive fishing of other industries out of our control..........
_________________
Whole life insurance Forum

 

[mkirda]

Also, .................I bet if we were to get a photo of that coral that was entangled with the net...........it too would have white areas and could be deemed cyanide damage?

Um, doubt it severely. Barrier net damage would consist of a clean break. Cyanide doesn't 'break' corals.

Besides, anything stronger than a Seriatopora hystrix would tear the net before it would break. That damage would look like your standard abrasion. In a healthy coral, abrasion heals in a couple of days... Not dissimilar to scraping your skin. At any rate, the collectors work really hard to avoid damaging their nets- and that means they do their darnedest to untangle them without doing damage to either the coral or the net.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

And this would also mean the corals in the subject photo should also heal themselves ............be it cyanide burn or eel passage syndrome? Most of the damage is not from the net but from the diver holding on to the coral as a he attempts to gain leverage to pull out the tangle. It is hard to pull when your buoyant and suspended in water without "anchoring yourself to gain opposite resistance now is it?
_________________
us recession 2008

 

[clarionreef]

Kalk,
A lot of the food fish damage you speak of is absolutely true. In fact, it is not only true, but in most areas where the ornamental trade is not...it is the only real damage!
As the first one to expose the catching of food fish ie. napoleon wrasse and panther groupers by cyanide to the world back in 1986, I know something of the issue. As a consultant to the Dept. of Agriculture back then, I wrote the report that brought it to the worlds attention.
The players in the food fish cyanide business and the tropical fish business were often the same. It has been suggested that the great fear of the initial expose of the aquarium trade was that it would spill over and expose the food fish trade. ..and thats exactly what happened.
The point I want to make is this. The two trades are linked in the Philippines and our hammering away at the cyanide trade has also embarrassed and exposed the food trade. In fact the IMA and MAC are often courting that very food fish trade now and offering remedy and better P.R. for it...ie, training, CDT testing etc.
They need deodorant, fixing, greenwashing or something ASAP because the issue could blow up in their faces when the general public finds out that they pay serious money to buy poisoned fish.
Food fishing thru destructive methodologies does in fact ruin a great deal of habitat. Thats true...always was...but how would that even come close to excusing our trade from ruining the critical and preferred habitats of reef fishes that we covet? Hong kong doesn't eat blue tangs but we kill their populations off systematically when we kill all the critical table top acroporas that they need to grow up in. When they are bigger we kill off their larger fingered pocillipora coral heads. Next year...no more. So we move on like a borg ship absorbing area after area until their remaining strongholds are way out in Muslim Mindinao!
The food trade did not do that. The aquarium trade did! We have to own up to that and fix it...not try to palm it off on another industry guilty of their own crimes...
Sincerely, Steve

 

[PeterIMA]

Steve, While I agree with you that the problem of cyanide fishing is associated with both the live aquarium fish and live food fish trades, I also agree with Kalk to some degree. There is a very significant cyanide fishery for food fish in the Philippines (for local consumption) that is not related to the live food fish (export-related) trade. This became more apparent to me as I analyzed the CDT database by species. The Philippines needs to re-implement CDT to protect the remaining reefs (not much left that is in good-excellent condition) to help restore fish populations needed to feed Filipinos.

Peter Rubec

 

[Kalkbreath]

I think some of the people at the top are scared that the movement to end our destructive fishing methods will abruptly stop, if the truth behind who is really harming the reefs is exposed...... In all of my months being a jerk on this forum, I have found no one whom would lose interest in this hobbies exculpation from wrong doing..........Quite the opposite........The more I foist an understand that our hobby is just a tiny blemish on the heath of the world reefs, the more hobbyists want to become involved.............. Its not the hobbyists abandoning the reform that you should be afraid of ...........its the public abandoning the hobby! Without a clear distinction in the minds of the general public, between what this hobby is harming and what greater harm other industries are doing ..........We risk permanently branding this hobby in the mind of the ever so short attention span general public as a clear and present danger to all the worlds reefs. The general public has a very hard time envisioning the end of seafood on the dinner table[both here and abroad}..........but has little difficulty condemning the capture of coral reef fish as pets.........If they view both as a cause in the ill health of the worlds reefs....which type of fishing do you feel the public would most likely choose to give up?..................The full truth .....is the only way any real help for the reefs will ever come about............"The fish your eating is full of poison!" is a much more powerful message then "the fish in you aquarium may be poisoned" .....even to a hobbyist! I think the reform movement deeds to broaden the scope of their message..............?
_________________
inflation defined

 

[John_Brandt]

I'm with Kalk,
We must do something about the new danger to the reefs he has singlehandedly exposed...eel rubbing! Stopping the eel rubbing is going to take a long time. We need research, an infrastructure to campaign with and serious grant money.
Soon, entire careers, big salaries and major funding may arise to deal with this new threat to our beloved reefs. Thanks Kalk. Lets start a new thread on this and finally get serious.
I have often wondered about these partially burned corals but lacked the insight, the courage and the vision to bring it forth. Mike, others and I imagined it to be cyanide burn but we were apparently mistaken...Now, a visionary has arisen in the East to show us the way.
Count me in for support.
Steve
PS.Seperate group or could AMDA host an eel rubbing section on its website to help kick things off?

Steve,

Obviously, you are not getting out enough. Just such a campaign is already in place.

Some time ago, a number of sharp-eyed and sharp-witted people in the Philippines recognized that eel rubbing was killing corals. Somebody knew somebody who knew somebody who knew the President, so she was informed of the reef crisis situation.

In a way that only President Arroyo can...she belted out to her fellow Pinoys, "We, as a united country, must do something about this terrible eel rubbing that is destroying our precious coral reefs. Now there is nothing wrong with an eel, until that eel rubs. It is the rubbing that has got to stop. We have got to bring an end to the rubbing that the eels do when they rub!!!! Unlike hard-working people like you and I, eels really don't have anything to do all day. Apparently they just start rubbing, and continue rubbing until they kill the reef. We have got to stop the eels from rubbing or stop the eels before they rub!" And with that she stormed off.

During his weekly 6 minutes of free time, Ron Popeil heard her frantic public address on his pocket shortwave radio. He immediately set to work on inventing and perfecting a tool that the Philippine people could use to control the eels. He had to stop the eels from rubbing.

He first thought of rubber or plastic guards to put on the coral to protect it. He rejected that idea when it was suggested that shipping the corals to a factory that could install the guards would create too much of a delay in actually solving the problem.

He then thought of that rope system that keeps people in orderly lines at banks and theaters. He figured that he might be able to set up something like that on reefs to keep the eels from rubbing. Then he realized that an eel is already like a rope, and that an eel is not likely to take guidance or orders from a rope.

He finally set upon the idea that one would have to go after the eels directly. He quickly began to draw plans for the Moray-O-Matic, a series of high-technology revolving blades incorporated with a laser sighting system. A reef-saver type person simply points the device towards an eel, lines up the laser sighting system and pulls the trigger. Within 5 seconds the eel is chopped, sliced and diced, so to speak.

Although I have never seen a Popeil Moray-O-Matic device, I have seen the results. Long live the reef!

 

[JennM]

ROFL

"Eel-Rubbing"

I've heard it called many things, but never eel rubbing :lol:

 

[Kalkbreath]

Hey ! Eel sushi is my favorite!
_________________
america economy