One strike and your out?{MAC baseball league}

[dizzy]

Kalk, I was totalled and tallied, just no broken down for subsequent analyses.

Peter

And the results did not show 60% .....So why is 60% what is quoted in these reports?

Jeff (kalk) makes some valid points here. According to several of us in the industry the data is extremely suspect. It was not necessary to view all the data in order to see certain trends developing. These points have been made in previous threads just like Jeff said.

 

[mkirda]

Jeff (kalk) makes some valid points here. According to several of us in the industry the data is extremely suspect. It was not necessary to view all the data in order to see certain trends developing. These points have been made in previous threads just like Jeff said.

Mitch,

Innocent until proven guilty- that is the presumption we make.

So far, we have seen the end result which many of you have disagreed with.
(And I see your points.)
Then we have seen a small fraction of the raw data tallied in broken down form. The amount of data presented so far is not even anywhere near close enough for anyone to draw any conclusions.

After talking to Frank and hearing his side, how the data was collected, etc., I have to say that he makes a compelling case. I really hope he finishes the project and gets the study published. I can also understand why he may not want to, as the data will certainly be used against the hobby. Double-edged sword it is...

I'm not sure that I believe it fully or not yet. I am willing to cut him some slack though rather than skewer him based on the 1% or so that he has publicly posted. Innocent until proven guilty.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[PeterIMA]

Mike, Innocent until proven guilty for whom Frank or the aquarium trade?
I agree that the data needs more thorough analyses. But, Frank's methods appear OK to me and the sample size is very large. Consequently, I mentioned the results provided to me by Frank Lallo in my paper "Cyanide-Free Net-Caught Fish for the Marine Aquarium Trade. They steted that based on telephone interviews t hat the mortality at the retail level was on average 60% on the US east coast, 35% in the midwest, and 30% on the west coast. I accept this information as being true , until demonstrated otherwise by further analyses of Frank's data.

While everyone is entitled to speculate and have an opinion, I have not seen any other quantitative data provided to contradict what Frank Lallo has provided. On the contrary, I have interviewed many other individuals who have provided data to support the conclusions reached by Frank Lallo. Just because your pet store did not experience high mortality rates does not mean it did not occur. One store is hardly representative. Frank followed individual shipments and gathered data on at about 25 shipments per store for about 300 stores nationwide. I don't know of any other study with that amount of data.
Peter Rubec

 

[Kalkbreath]

Did we miss something? Show me where Franks data came anywhere near 60% ........the issue of how the data was collected and was it accurate is a separate issue..........the data shown on this forum has never come close to 60% .....Add up what frank posted.......its about 10 %DOA ......? And the greatest issue is why was this study quoted in Major reports back in 2001! If its not finished? ........And lastly what is so difficult about adding up the numbers?

 

[kylen]

Kalk,

Frank/Peter stated, correct me if I'm wrong, the mortality figures were for combined DOA and DAA (within 3 days). Frank only posted DOA numbers for ~20 species of fish which I figured to be about 12% overall. He never, at least I never saw, the DAA figures which, IMO, will cause those mortality figures to rise dramatically.

 

[Kalkbreath]

You really think 60% of fish shipped die befor being sold ? not only that but only four out of ten fish even make it to the weekend? {most fish are shipped early week} three days later sixty percent dirt nap?........would it not seem to reason that more fish would die.....on day four, five ,six etc. this would leave only twenty percent for display on Saturday? Stores would have to sell the remaining 20% at five times just to break even ! And this is the average, some stores would need to be 98% DOA DAA? This is silly.......something is not right. Perhaps that is why seven years later the full report is not complete......it is all too easy to cry some thing and never have to back it up ........... :wink:

 

[mkirda]

Did we miss something? Show me where Franks data came anywhere near 60% ........the issue of how the data was collected and was it accurate is a separate issue..........the data shown on this forum has never come close to 60% .....Add up what frank posted.......its about 10 %DOA ......? And the greatest issue is why was this study quoted in Major reports back in 2001! If its not finished? ........And lastly what is so difficult about adding up the numbers?

Yes, Kalk, you did miss something. The part where I have told you repeatedly that you cannot take a small chunk of the overall data and draw conclusions from it. I gave you the example before of using the first question on a test to grade the rest of it. Simple enough example. I can't begin to imagine why you cannot understand it.

The data was totaled, as repeatedly explained to you. It was never broken down into further categories for analysis. Frank explained why- He hurt his back, retired, then moved and this was no longer a priority for him. Guess you missed that part. Guessed you missed his further explanation that most of the data was still packed in boxes too.

Hope I'm never charged with a crime in Atlanta... I'd never get a fair trial with you on a jury.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

Thats what Frank and Peter DID! How do they Know what the data tells if it has never been tallied?

 

[mkirda]

Thats what Frank and Peter DID! How do they Know what the data tells if it has never been tallied?

Do you read?
Tallied = added up. You got the sum totals already.
You did not get the full breakdowns in how each category added up to the total.

I don't know how much clearer I can make this.
This isn't even algebra level math, Kalkbreath.
You should have learned this level of math in about the fourth grade.

I can't help you if you never finished fourth grade math.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

What did you see that showed 60% dead fish within three days on the East coast?I only saw 12% And what is left to do with the data? Nothing has ever shown 60% ? Please tell me how the same data if "broken down"will lead to a greater amount of dead fish ? If Frank and Peter did not need to further "break Down "the data in order to release a finding seven years ago..........why DO I ?

 

[kylen]

Let's see if we can put this in other words...ONLY DOA figures were posted by Frank on this board not the combined DOA/DAA mortality figures (60% East Coast) being used by Peter in his report. This does make a difference. Mike is only asking, I think, to wait until all the numbers are posted to comment.

 

[Kalkbreath]

You dont think seven years is a bit long to back up the claims of 60%? For seven years this silly study has gone without any thing to back it up.............."I did a study this week that showed every single fish ever imported is still alive today!"......What ?you want some data to support this claim ..........Why?

 

[kylen]

Seven years is quite a while, but I think it has only been recently that the numbers have been questioned. I agree with Peter that this is a good sample and is probably more than representative of the retail side of things from seven years ago. No study has been done to refute any of the numbers.

My opinion with the numbers, FWIW, are probably fairly close to reality. I am privy to DOA/DAA numbers of some of customers. Some are very good and other are abismal (sp). I'll just wait and see.

 

[Kalkbreath]

You have customers losing 60%? in three days?............... All thats been tallied is leading to 12%.............Where is the data that Frank concluded showed 60% and why cant anyone but Frank see it?

 

[mkirda]

Mike is only asking, I think, to wait until all the numbers are posted to comment.

Thank you, Kylen.
This is exactly it...

It when Frank publishes the breakdown(s) and the numbers don't add up, I would call him out on it. But until such time, I give him the benefit of the doubt.

As far as Kalk's math skills go, maybe if I break it down for him, he'll get it?
I dunno... Is it worth my time to educate him on every topic?
I'm beginning to think the answer is no.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Kalkbreath]

What numbers are you going to use to break down? And when are you going to call his bluff......ten years ......twenty? Your giving someone the benefit of the doubt for almost one decade? And this study has more Box fish and Ribbon eels then green chromis {THE NUMBER ONE IMPORTED FISH } ? This data is already so out dated, that its almost of no use anyway...........This is a perfect example of an urban rumor.....based on nothing but fluff..........as are most facts about this hobby ........NEXT PLEASE...... :roll:

 

[Kalkbreath]

What numbers are you going to use to break down? And when are you going to call his bluff......ten years ......twenty? Your giving someone the benefit of the doubt for almost one decade? And this study has more Box fish and Ribbon eels then green chromis {THE NUMBER ONE IMPORTED FISH } ? This data is already so out dated, that its almost of no use anyway...........This is a perfect example of an urban rumor.....based on nothing but fluff..........as are most facts about this hobby ........NEXT PLEASE...... :roll:

 

[mkirda]

What numbers are you going to use to break down? And when are you going to call his bluff......ten years ......twenty? Your giving someone the benefit of the doubt for almost one decade? And this study has more Box fish and Ribbon eels then green chromis {THE NUMBER ONE IMPORTED FISH } ? This data is already so out dated, that its almost of no use anyway...........This is a perfect example of an urban rumor.....based on nothing but fluff..........as are most facts about this hobby ........NEXT PLEASE...... :roll:

Pretty much sums up your attitude about everything, doesn't it?
It it doesn't fit in with your narrow world view, it can't possible be right now, can it?

:roll: :roll: :roll: naman!

Regards.
Mike Kirda