The benefits of MAC certification

[JennM]

When David Vosseler called me and we talked, last year, I asked about the "best practices" and he explained that there is no prescribed protocol, and that we record our best practices and show that we adhere to them.

If a store doesn't have a business plan in place, what makes you think they are organized enough to cough up $1500 to be told to write it all down?

How long should it take? Well, it should take as long as it needs to in order to have the infracstructure in place BEFORE certifications are sold!!!!! Sure they can make mistakes, and fix them... that would be the purpose of a Beta test or pilot program... nobody would have legitimate cause to complain if it was touted as such, until at least all the big holes were plugged. It would conceivably take years to work out every possible bugaboo, but if even the elementary stuff was worked out to this point, MAC would be met with a lot less criticism.

The fact that MAC still hasn't plugged up the gaping holes is testiment to the notion that they have no intention of fixing things - or they would have at least suspended further certifications until the huge problems were fixed...

Jenn

 

[hdtran]

Delurking:

Speaking as a hobbyist aquarist (I am not involved in the marine aquarium industry, except as a consumer 8) ), the MAC process sounds awfully like ISO registration, from JamesW, JennM, & MaryHM's descriptions.

Having been through that myself, I can assure you that ISO 9001/2/3/4 registration says absolutely nothing about the quality of the product made by the company. It just certifies that the product was made according to documented procedure. So, if we have crappy procedures (say, exploding Pintos), but follow the procedures exactly in making our exploding Pintos, then, our product is certified. So, if the procedure says, "get the worker drunk blind before allowing him/her to assemble your car," and you follow procedures, you will have (a) happy workers (until they're hungover), (b) crappy cars, and (c) certified, repeatable crap... (That is a key advantage to ISO registration--you're assuring your customers that what they get tomorrow is the same as what they got today).

Slightly tangentially: If you claim in your ISO registration that you test your machines according, to, say ASME B5.54 (verification of accuracy of machine tools) every 6 months, then, I would be more likely to trust the accuracy of your products. The B5.54 standard does describe methods for testing the accuracy of a machine...

Relurking...

 

[Anonymous]

Which is where the hairy issue of MAC certified stores vs MAC certified animals comes into play. A store with crappy guidelines and procedures might remain MAC certified, but it couldn't sell MAC certified animals because of the mortality limits applied to the batch od MC certified fish. ie if you don't know what you are doing (crappy guidelines and policies) you probably won't be able to keep the certified batch of fish at 2% mortality, and will not be able to sell them as MAC certified. So in essence the mortality % is the quality certifier.

And I find it somewhat far-fetched that a store could go through the entire certification process and still have crappy policies and poor husbandry procedures put into place. But I've been called optimistic before.

But stores that claim to be MAC certified and aren't or claim to sell MAC certified animals but aren't MAC certified, or are MAC certified but are selling animals that aren't MAC certified as MAC certified (did you get all that?) are really no different than all of the stores and wholesalers that are claiming to be selling net caught fish currently. Making sure everyone is telling the truth is always going to be a problem until we have some kind of organization making bi-weekly visits to all the shops. It's never going to happen. But I think MAC (again assuming they can do what they say they're gonna) is probably one of the better possibilities currently running. Time will tell.

 

[JennM]

But Glenn, Hy Tran hit the nail on the head (Thanks for de-cloaking, Hy!), I had a hard time wrapping my head around that explanation when David Vosseler explained it to me. But you know, when I got my inspection from the great State of Georgia, to get an animal protection licence, it was more or less the same thing - inspector came, saw, HE wrote up the report, asked me about a few procedures, whether or not I'd heat the system in winter, etc., and wrote it all down, took my check and voila! I got my licence. If somebody had a cause for concern they can report me to the Department of Agriculture, and they will send an inspector etc., but basically what I did was up to me. As long as I had what the inspector deemed was adequate housing, I'm in. Ditto for the certification, but that costs more.

We've already seen the MAC logo on an uncertified store's website once, and there's too much room for cheating - throw a non-MAC green chromis in the MAC tank if one too many goes belly-up, who'd be the wiser? Unless ALL the fish in a given store were certified, the practice has been dubbed "mixing". It might not be mixing clean and juiced fish in the literal sense, in the same tank(s), but it is selling juiced or possibly juiced (or at the very least, uncertified) fish as well as certified. Very confusing to the consumer, and leaves too much room for abuse.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

I know where you are coming from. However, case in point. We were recently inspected for our annual review for our animal protection license. All of the records that we have to keep for the Department of Agriculture were checked as part of the process. Incoming records for all animals (fish, herps, birds, rabbits, g. pigs, hamsters, etc.) as well as outgoing records for all birds, rabbits, and g. pigs. ie We had to have a record of every animal that had come into our store, along with the date it was recieved and where it came from, as well as a record of who we sold it to, and when along with any deaths that had ocurred in the store. During the inspection a discrepency in the records came up with the birds. Apparently we had sold three or four and not recorded the sale which meant our incoming and outgoing records didn't match. This had also happened the last time we were inspected as it's easy to forget since we just don't sell that many birds. However, because of it being our second time to fail that particular part, we are now facing having our birds put under quarantine if we don't have our records straightened out in 30 days. This means that we will have to pay for a vet to come into the store and do blood tests on all of our birds, and then again 10 days later, all at our expense of course. All that for a couple of 10 dollar parakeets. Our solution to the problem was to stop selling live birds. The time and trouble put into the record keeping (monthly inventories, names and addresses for every customer who purchased) simply wasn't worth it, and the penalties for not strictly following the rules were too great. Yeah we could have cheated and simply made up some names or just fudged the records every month, (which I wouldn't do) but even if I were the type is just isn't worth all that trouble. It's more trouble to have to keep up with everything and keep all the lies and coverups straight than it is to simply follow the rules. So we aren't going to sell birds any more. Problem solved.

Yeah their are going to be some people who cheat, every system will have them, but I don't think it's going to be the majority like you guys are implying. They will eventually be found out. Or they will eventually start following the rules because fabricating a convincing bullet proof lie is just too much work. I doubt people are going to have two batches (an uncertified batch and a certified batch) in stock just to be able to keep the numbers right to maintain certification.

 

[JennM]

Wow I don't have to jump through all those hoops... but then I only sell fish, coral and inverts.

I was inspected in depth at first, and last year I sent in my renewal, and got my licence in the mail.

Interesting...

Jenn

 

[MaryHM]

Yeah their are going to be some people who cheat, every system will have them, but I don't think it's going to be the majority like you guys are implying. They will eventually be found out. Or they will eventually start following the rules because fabricating a convincing bullet proof lie is just too much work. I doubt people are going to have two batches (an uncertified batch and a certified batch) in stock just to be able to keep the numbers right to maintain certification.

Glenn, you quit selling birds because the paperwork wasn't worth the hassle. Understandable. However, someone who seeks out MAC certification is doing so knowing that the whole program is one big paperwork hassle. To remain certified, they must be vigilent in keeping up with tracking every single MAC certified animal. Now no one has ever said that MAC certified companies will bring in certified and uncertified fish for the sole purpose of being able to have the numbers to maintain their certified batch. They will bring in certified and uncertified because they are forced to. There aren't enough certified fish to supply even one small importer in the middle of Michigan or Canada of all places. How can they possible supply huge US wholesalers like Segrest and Quality?? The answer is they can't. But back to my point...so the certified stores have to bring in both certified and uncertified green chromis for example just to have enough to supply their customers. They also already are forced to carefully track every single MAC certified green chromis or risk losing certification on that batch (and why would you become MAC certified if you weren't interested in maintaining certification for the animals?). So you lose 10 out of 50 green chromis. It must be recorded and now the batch is uncertified. Or.....while you're recording your losses for MAC you happened to look over at that tank of never-were-certified green chromis. Why wouldn't you go throw 10 of them over in the MAC tank? If you lose the certification on the batch, you can't advertise them as certified and you theoretically can't sell them for as much money. So you see Glenn, cheating will be prevalent. The people are already forced to do the paperwork and the cheating will be necessary to prevent uncertification of batches. It's not really like your bird example. A fish store that pursues certification and acheives it is going to want MAC certified fish- and if they can't get them the honest way there's nothing stopping them from cheating. You say cheaters will eventually be found out. Using my example, please explain how.

 

[MaryHM]

One more thing- one of the main reasons you quit carrying birds is because the penalties for not keeping the proper records are too high. There are no penalties for cheating the MAC system.

 

[Anonymous]

But back to my point...so the certified stores have to bring in both certified and uncertified green chromis for example just to have enough to supply their customers. They also already are forced to carefully track every single MAC certified green chromis or risk losing certification on that batch (and why would you become MAC certified if you weren't interested in maintaining certification for the animals?). So you lose 10 out of 50 green chromis. It must be recorded and now the batch is uncertified. Or.....while you're recording your losses for MAC you happened to look over at that tank of never-were-certified green chromis. Why wouldn't you go throw 10 of them over in the MAC tank?

I just don't think that is likely to happen. Only on the rare occasion (ie the end of a batch) would a store get some certified and some non-certified. In every other situation the store would get 50 certified fish or zero certified fish. No store is going to have extra inventory simply to supplement the certified batch. I'm not going to have 70 green chromis just to make sure I can sell 50 as certified. And most stores have multiple employees, which means coordination. What if two people supplement the batch and put 20 non-certified fish in the tank? It's not easy to count 50 chromis in a tank, so they are going to have make sure they keep the story straight. If they recieved 50 certified chromis, and have outgoing records for 70 they are going to be in trouble. As far as I understand it, cheaters lose their certification. This problem becomes compounded even further when we are talking multiple species, and also becomes irrelevent when talking about higher end species. (ie who is going to have extra blue face angels, purple tangs, or semilarvatus running around?)

But like you said, people who go through the process of becoming certified do it knowing full well that they are getting into a paperwork nightmare, which is all the more reason why they would do it with plans to do it right. And those who do get into it and then realize it's more work than they are willing to do and try to cheat their way through will eventually be found out, or they will drop out on their own. It is absolutely absurd to demand a fool proof system. People are going to cheat no matter what. As long as there are reasonable procedures and policies put into place to attempt to curb the number of cheaters, that's the best we can hope for. If 25% of all the stores in the program cheat, it's still a 75% improvement over all, which ain't bad. Losing certification (if the program is actually worth the time) is a pretty serious penalty if you ask me. I know if my competitor lost his animal protection license, I'd certainly take advantage of it.

But this still boils down to the fact that there are no fish (ie if fish were plentiful, they wouldn't have mixed batches). In all seriousness, if MAC never gets any fish they will fail completely, and it's all a moot point. The only way MAC is going to get all these retailers on board is if they suddenly have something to sell. Yes, they were able to get a few "pioneers" and those looking to get in on the ground floor, and some who just thought they were doing the right thing by supporting an organization who wanted to reform the industry, but we both know that they won't ever have any real success until they can become a major supplier of multiple wholesalers. If that ever happens, then mixing fish won't be of too much concern because there will be plenty to go around. If that never happens, they will simply go away.

 

[Anonymous]

I was inspected in depth at first, and last year I sent in my renewal, and got my licence in the mail.

You will be randomly inspected. It doesn't have anything to do with the renewal date on your license. Since you don't sell animals, they will basically check for any changes, (they will have a copy of the detailed report they took the first time with them) to your systems, make sure they are in the same condition as they were last time, and record any additions (ie your new freshwater tanks ). They will also check to make sure you have a record book containing all of the invoices of the fish and inverts that you have brought in. Since you don't have to inventory them they will basically just check to make sure you have a notebook with invoices in it.

 

[MaryHM]

I just don't think that is likely to happen. Only on the rare occasion (ie the end of a batch) would a store get some certified and some non-certified. In every other situation the store would get 50 certified fish or zero certified fish. No store is going to have extra inventory simply to supplement the certified batch.

I think they will have extra inventory to supplement the certified batch. Especially on the import/wholesale end of things. Your argument may be more geared to retail stores only who maybe need 50 green chromis every 2 weeks vs. an importer who needs 800-1000 every week.

[q]
(ie who is going to have extra blue face angels, purple tangs, or semilarvatus running around?) [/q]

Exporters and importers

You still didn't answer as to how someone would get caught using the green chromis scenario I offered up earlier.

. As long as there are reasonable procedures and policies put into place to attempt to curb the number of cheaters, that's the best we can hope for.

What are the "reasonable procedures" that are currently in place to curb the cheating?

 

[Anonymous]

I think they will have extra inventory to supplement the certified batch. Especially on the import/wholesale end of things. Your argument may be more geared to retail stores only who maybe need 50 green chromis every 2 weeks vs. an importer who needs 800-1000 every week.

You may be right on the wholesale side of things. Which is precisely why I believe the bulk of the attention needs to be given there. It's the bottleneck, the point in the chain where the number of companies is the smallest, and the place where inspections could be done most regularly and can achieve the greatest results. Heck, if we get rid of all the dirty fish in all the wholesalers there is little need for certification at the retail level in the first place (except for tranships I suppose). It is similar to the situation now where you may order Fiji or Tongan fish but get subbed Indo. The retailer will likely know, the same way we can tell now. It still boils down to being able to trust the people you are doing business with. If a retailer has spent the cash to get certified, I would expect that they would also have some pretty high expectations of the wholesalers providing the certified fish. If I order a batch of 50 certified green chromis from a wholesaler and lose 10, you can bet your booties that rather than going into my secret stash of green chromis in the back room to supplement the batch, I'm gonna give that wholesaler a few choice words. And if it continues, I will be looking for a wholsaler that can provide a batch of fish without an outrageous mortality. Just like we do now. The beauty of the paperwork is it allows the retailer to send feedback back up the chain. Every single in house death can be traced back to the wholesaler who supplied it, and the importer who imported it, and collector who collected it. If it's just a crappy store that can't keep fish alive, the records will show that, but if an inordinate amount of deaths get traced back to a single wholesaler we've got progress.

You still didn't answer as to how someone would get caught using the green chromis scenario I offered up earlier.

Yes I did. They would eventually make a mistake on the inventory, either by supplementing too few or too many. I also pointed out that that particular scenario only applied to a few species at the retail level (damsels, and clowns), and that the scenario would only happen if MAC fails to provide enough fish, in which case MAC would have failed anyway and it's a moot point. Seems pretty shaky to me.

What are the "reasonable procedures" that are currently in place to curb the cheating?

For what other reason is all that paperwork required? It is to prove that you are doing what you are supposed to. Will people cheat? Yes, but it will be a minority of people, and they won't do it for long. Losing certification, especially after the funds to become certified have been spent, will be a big deal. And certainly not worth being able to sell a green chromis for an extra dollar.

 

[Anonymous]

Purple Tangs, MAC is looking into the Red Sea now?

High end fish? Hows that gonna happen?

 

[Anonymous]

Purple Tangs, MAC is looking into the Red Sea now?

High end fish? Hows that gonna happen?

Speaking in broad general theory here of course.

 

[Ad van Tage]

I don't want best case scenarios. I want responses based on what MAC can do for a business RIGHT NOW if I call in today in response to one of their ads and I want to become MAC certified. They are advertising, trying to increase the number of certified dealers. I want to know what they can offer right now that would make certification seem like a "must" for my business.

Interesting you should post this Mary, I have written [directly] to the MAC , going on two month now, requesting information about what an IMPORTER has to do to be MAC certified. And I asked what the potential benefits might be.

Well from the eardrumbreaking silence I must conclude that there is no benefit, and nothing needs doing...

 

[Ad van Tage]

Mary obviously you haven't seen the Dealer Cost/Benefit Study that was posted on the MASNA site. :wink:

WINK :wink: , WINk :wink: , WInk :wink: , Wink indeed.
That C/B"study" made me wonder why ANYONE would base their business decisions on information that was as shoddy as this casestudy.

Slapped together it looks like by an MBS student no less. No references , no sources, and not terribly credible.

:idea: I moved on! :idea:
But then I am not a dealer.