[michael stern]

Quote: Originally Posted by Chiefmcfuz Not a MR legal matter but between the vendor and the buyer. I know the way I wrote it sounded that way sorry. The Internet fraud complaint center resolves issues for internet transactions and is a great external mediation agency. What I am saying is after we all try to work things out here if they don't work to one party's satisfaction persay MR should have an out and refer people to another agency. Is that more clear now.

Just a note on these guys: I once had a dispute with an ebay seller that I bought from, and never received the item. Eventually, after exhausting all my ebay options, I contacted them. Never heard back.

	Manhattan Reefs Manhattan Reefs, the best aquarium community on Planet Earth!

[ShaunW]

Quote: Originally Posted by michael stern At the risk of starting a war (which, believe me, is not my intent), "You will not sell diseased, sick, dying, bleached or dyed livestock." How does this work with people who are simply ordering for people, and then resell the items, unopened, unquarenteened, not eating, etc. I don't have any problem with this practice, as long as customers know what they are getting. But how can vendors have any knowledge of livestock health and viability if they only have it a couple of hours. In general though, I think this system should work much better. Thanks for all the efforts

Well, I have a problem with this practice. It is irresponsible. I know it is commonplace and is more the norm than the exception. But we all should be ashamed of ourselves that this is so!

In what warped world is it acceptable to sell diseased, sick, dying, bleached or dyed livestock! It shouldn't be accepted and allowed. Here at MR we can make a difference, albet small, .

	Manhattan Reefs Manhattan Reefs, the best aquarium community on Planet Earth!

[nycmat]

[quote=solbby]Oh, now I understand, .

Well, it is the buyers choice to use an individual vendor to purchase items, so they must take some responsibility.

We are going to have individual vendor forums. [quote=solbby]


this is the best idea, this relieves MR of any and all culpability and its comes back to buyer should know best. glad to see no security is needed.
I only question one thing here. If we continue to keep with the labels of newbies etc. WHo is to say what you are? what is the criteria and if so should there be yet another forum for this as well? also if you are black labeled as a "newbie" when do you get out from being that? And I just hate the whole entitlement of brandishing names for people. it divides us uneccassarily and makes "groups" of people in here. Not a good idea about that.

	Manhattan Reefs Manhattan Reefs, the best aquarium community on Planet Earth!

[Deanos]

In my experience here at MR, people often label themselves as "newbies", usually when asking a question. Some have gone so far as to create usernames with the term. So I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say "If we continue to keep with the labels" Even our forum for "newbies" is called the Beginner's Forum.

	Manhattan Reefs Manhattan Reefs, the best aquarium community on Planet Earth!

[ShaunW]

I do my best to avoid the labels! I also try not to call anyone a "Newbie".

However, Dean is correct in that people often label themselves as a "Newbie".

[Chiefmcfuz]

The lables that appear under your name on posts changes as you post more. If that's what the question is right?

[Josh]

Quote: Originally Posted by Chiefmcfuz The lables that appear under your name on posts changes as you post more. If that's what the question is right?

Actually, this is one of the few sites that doesn't do that. Once you post once you are no longer a Junior Member and are a full Member. After 100 posts you are a "Senior Member" (much to the chagrin of some of our senior senior members).

But, in reality we don't limit anyone when they are creating your own title. So you can call yourself "Reef G-d" if you want, its up to you.

Personally, I think this decreases the interest in titles, if everyone can do it then there isn't room for a class system based on how many posts you have (idiotic).

[meschaefer]

Quote: Originally Posted by Chiefmcfuz Respect for our pets • You will not KNOWINGLY purchase or sell “difficult to keep” livestock to new hobbyists • You will not KNOWINGLY sell diseased, sick, dying, bleached or dyed livestock. • You will not KNOWINGLY sell livestock to a customer whose tank has not been properly cycled. I think the word knowingly needs to be added here as I have done above.

I agree that the word knowingly needs to at least be inferred. This is called mens rea, which is latin for "guilty mind". It is a common principal in legal systems derived from english common law, and basicly requires intent to commit the infraction that is accused. There is a difference between a vendor who sells a AEF infested acro knowing that it is infested, and one who sells an AEF infested acro without knowing that it is infested.

There is some talk of dispute resolution. I would reccomend that the mods stay away from dispute resolution as it can become a sticky area. Leave all dispute resolution, to the "feed back" function, and expressly state in the vendor rules that being a vendor on this forum is a privlidge that can be revoked at the discretion of the moderators, and that the vendor agreement contain a "forum clause", that requires all disputes between vendors and MR to be handled in a specific venue such as the IFCC.

Furthermore, I would require all vendors to hold harmless MR, its moderators and members for negative feedback that is left. You don't want a libel suit, because someone trashed a vendor.

	Manhattan Reefs Manhattan Reefs, the best aquarium community on Planet Earth!

[Josh]

Quote: Originally Posted by Chiefmcfuz Respect for our pets • You will not KNOWINGLY purchase or sell “difficult to keep” livestock to new hobbyists • You will not KNOWINGLY sell diseased, sick, dying, bleached or dyed livestock. • You will not KNOWINGLY sell livestock to a customer whose tank has not been properly cycled.

The reason it is worded the way it is is because no one would ever admit to knowingly selling a sick fish. Since no one would ever admit to it, the rules are written in nearly absolute terms so people are clear about what they mean. This isn't really about enforcement, it is just a code of ethics that we all agree on, and of course it gives the site to right to pull your listings if you are OBVIOUSLY screwing people.

[Chiefmcfuz]

NP josh i understand.