bare vs deep sand fuge
- Thread starter GQ22
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- 11756
Imagine what a huge skimmer, BB, and big water changes would do. That seems like the formula for a nice tank. If you can you can get all the other toys too.
Now I'm rethinking a SB. Someone help me decide.
Night everyone
-Kris
Now I'm rethinking a SB. Someone help me decide.
Night everyone
-Kris
Okay, now you guys have summoned the lister in me!
-Very small or relatively little fish
-Weekly siphoning accompanied by water changes
-Running carbon & some type of phosphate removal in a 1 micron filter sock, which you change at least weekly.
-Not overfeeding
-Not leaving your lights on too long
-Overskimming & cleaning out your skimmer neck at least every 2-3 days
-Adding some pretty clams
-Plenty of flow in your tank
-Not adding a fuge, unless you have to feed your tank & you should set it up so that the water is pre-filtered before it enters the fuge, or else you get crap build-up.
-Praying that we do not have another black out, like we did 2 years ago...what the heck did you guys do?
-Very small or relatively little fish
-Weekly siphoning accompanied by water changes
-Running carbon & some type of phosphate removal in a 1 micron filter sock, which you change at least weekly.
-Not overfeeding
-Not leaving your lights on too long
-Overskimming & cleaning out your skimmer neck at least every 2-3 days
-Adding some pretty clams
-Plenty of flow in your tank
-Not adding a fuge, unless you have to feed your tank & you should set it up so that the water is pre-filtered before it enters the fuge, or else you get crap build-up.
-Praying that we do not have another black out, like we did 2 years ago...what the heck did you guys do?
Alot of ideas, have been passed around here! I hope that I can add my 2c,
.
DSB accumulate nitrate and phosphate and have a limited life span, BUT their benefit as a sink for these molecules are without question. However, after enough time has passed they represent a source of high nutrient leakage into the water column due to the bacterial populations changing over time. Jim's plan to remove a separate DSB from the main tank when this happens is a good strategy to get the best of both worlds. The "crud" in a DSB is bacteria!! not some exotic processed fish feces (say that fast 3X,
).
SSB (2cm or less) don't store nitrate and phosphate like DSB. With enough critters running around, dendritis gets eaten up and processed into smaller compounds to be skimmed out of the system.
BB is the best way to go for a extremely low nutrient environment (best for SPS systems, since SPS can synthesis all the amino acids requried for growth from photosynthesis).
Husbandry is the key to all these systems!!!!
Clams are NOT a source of nitrate of phosphate removal (they grow too slow)! and a good cleanup crew is a must for any reef tank (FastUno I am not trying to start an argument, just just give my 2c,
)!
DSB accumulate nitrate and phosphate and have a limited life span, BUT their benefit as a sink for these molecules are without question. However, after enough time has passed they represent a source of high nutrient leakage into the water column due to the bacterial populations changing over time. Jim's plan to remove a separate DSB from the main tank when this happens is a good strategy to get the best of both worlds. The "crud" in a DSB is bacteria!! not some exotic processed fish feces (say that fast 3X,
).SSB (2cm or less) don't store nitrate and phosphate like DSB. With enough critters running around, dendritis gets eaten up and processed into smaller compounds to be skimmed out of the system.
BB is the best way to go for a extremely low nutrient environment (best for SPS systems, since SPS can synthesis all the amino acids requried for growth from photosynthesis).
Husbandry is the key to all these systems!!!!
Clams are NOT a source of nitrate of phosphate removal (they grow too slow)! and a good cleanup crew is a must for any reef tank (FastUno I am not trying to start an argument, just just give my 2c,
I think we need more arguments on MR, it's too boring.
jk. I saw a thread on RC where someone detailed the amount of nitrates a clam would remove from the water. It was not that much. Now if you had a tank full of clams in line with your display tank, that might make a dent in the system. of course this depends on how much water were talking about compared to how many clams and their sizes.
jk. I saw a thread on RC where someone detailed the amount of nitrates a clam would remove from the water. It was not that much. Now if you had a tank full of clams in line with your display tank, that might make a dent in the system. of course this depends on how much water were talking about compared to how many clams and their sizes.
wow, this is great feed back. i definitely want to keep a low nutrient system. i have a good aqua c urhin pro with a mag 7 and it yields about 2 cups of skimmate a day. im going to use a combination of jackson anad fast uno approach. i like uno's idea about the clams. the description of the phytoplanton and clam in a bucket was pretty good = ) So bare bottom, calupera, clams, skimming, and siphoning out bb dietrus, im going to put a mound of rock in my bb though as i do want pods to grow and feed the tank. i remembered see john's tank during the frag swap and the amount of pods in there with no predators. that was pretty cool.
sometimes i have no idea about these things, because len from reefs.org has kepted his DSB for 10 years + and his tanks is beautiful....
http://www.reefscapes.net/120gallon.html
his cleanup crew has various nassurus and tiger cukes.
his tank is a SPS dominate tank so i have no idea. 10 years is a long time.
http://www.reefscapes.net/120gallon.html
his cleanup crew has various nassurus and tiger cukes.
his tank is a SPS dominate tank so i have no idea. 10 years is a long time.
- Location
- The Big City
DSB work but you need to have the right critters to make sure the sand bed is working correctly. There are alot of people running tanks for many years with DSB and have no problems. It all works you just need to choose the right setup for yourself.
A skimmer is a great tool but if your pulling stuff out like crazy everyday then you probably need to do more water changes, unless your tank is overload with things and you feed like crazy. Good water changes will really help a system.
The thing about clams is you need to make sure your water condition are very good and your lighting setup is correct. If not all your clams will died and then you'll really have problems. I think most people that add clams only do so after their system have been running for a while and they feel that they're ready to add a clam to their system. I don't think you want to add a clam to a system that isn't running well and hope it will make your system better.
A skimmer is a great tool but if your pulling stuff out like crazy everyday then you probably need to do more water changes, unless your tank is overload with things and you feed like crazy. Good water changes will really help a system.
The thing about clams is you need to make sure your water condition are very good and your lighting setup is correct. If not all your clams will died and then you'll really have problems. I think most people that add clams only do so after their system have been running for a while and they feel that they're ready to add a clam to their system. I don't think you want to add a clam to a system that isn't running well and hope it will make your system better.
Not to worry about any arguments or wars, besides I am feeling a little dark this week for I have seen Star Wars Ep3.
I have a little secret to tell...after I trade/buy that frag from you I just might test your water. I have not come across a single tank that has a 0 count for nitrates/nitrites. The most successful tank that I have seen, being able to keep ANY type of coral (including carnations), had a 50ppm nitrate count. I can't even figure that one out.
As far as clean up crew goes, I see most of my snails on the tank walls. Guess what? With all these snails I still have to clean the glass. My back glass wall is all green, because my T5's are so darn efficient in putting out light. I have never cleaned the back tank wall & the critters have not managed to put a dent in the growth. If I don't clean the front or sides of the glass, same thing. Growth overtakes what they are unable to consume. If anything they may help the rockwork keep slightly clean, but I don't see them that often on the rocks. A majority of them, the majority of the time, are on the glass. Just based upon the glass observations leads me to say, "what the heck are they good for?", except for maybe poop contribution.
With my clam observation (if you don't believe me try it yourself), seems like they definitely filter the water. I don't see them as CONSUMING nitrates or nitrites, or even converting them. I see them as consuming micro living cells & particles that are suspended in your water column. As a result this has an indirect affect on NO2 & NO3 build up.
On SB's, I have seen some great looking SB's from MR'ers. I have never inquired as to why or how. Shall we start naming names?
I have a little secret to tell...after I trade/buy that frag from you I just might test your water. I have not come across a single tank that has a 0 count for nitrates/nitrites. The most successful tank that I have seen, being able to keep ANY type of coral (including carnations), had a 50ppm nitrate count. I can't even figure that one out.
As far as clean up crew goes, I see most of my snails on the tank walls. Guess what? With all these snails I still have to clean the glass. My back glass wall is all green, because my T5's are so darn efficient in putting out light. I have never cleaned the back tank wall & the critters have not managed to put a dent in the growth. If I don't clean the front or sides of the glass, same thing. Growth overtakes what they are unable to consume. If anything they may help the rockwork keep slightly clean, but I don't see them that often on the rocks. A majority of them, the majority of the time, are on the glass. Just based upon the glass observations leads me to say, "what the heck are they good for?", except for maybe poop contribution.
With my clam observation (if you don't believe me try it yourself), seems like they definitely filter the water. I don't see them as CONSUMING nitrates or nitrites, or even converting them. I see them as consuming micro living cells & particles that are suspended in your water column. As a result this has an indirect affect on NO2 & NO3 build up.
On SB's, I have seen some great looking SB's from MR'ers. I have never inquired as to why or how. Shall we start naming names?
- Location
- Ossining, NY
OK, I had a few beers and need to chime in.
FastUno - come on over with any test kit you like - nitrates = 0 in my main tank.
By the way - my current tank (and all past) have utilized all 3 methods of denitrification, Berlin, Jalabert and Shimeck (skimmer, plenum and DSB)
My current tank (92 bowfront)has plenum that covers (for all purposes) the whole tank bottom. It is about 2" high. I have 2" of CC on top of that - then I have about 4-5" of pure southdown which was seeded from my original 30g. Worms, pods etc all over the place. My skimmer is an Aqua C Remora Pro hang on back. It creates the nastiest skimmate.
I am heavily stocked and have about 12 fish - 4 of which are tangs which eat like cows (and consequently, sh** like cows). I feed every night and also hang a seaweed selects on every other night. Once a week I soak the mysis in garlic extract. This stuff make skimmate goo!
Ok, that being said, I believe Jackson, skimming is critical, but overskimming may not be best for your tank choice. Jackson, likes a low-nutrient environment so he can keep exotic SPS's (hence the name SPS Pimp)
I plan to keep a very mixed reef. That means I'll need additional nutrients feeding my tank (fuge) as well as a good skimmer to keep nutrients as low as possible or balanced) I do agree with you FU (hehehe Fast Uno abbreviated is FU) about clams as I have noticed that they polish the water nicely but still believe the best way to export nitrates is live rock, fuge, skimmer combo. Again, I keep about 1.75-2.0 lbs of LR per gallon in my tanks.
So, as discussed with Solbby, I plan to have a dsb in my fuge (so I can discard if it gets nasty) and a shalow sand bed in my main tank with tons of critter to keep it happy and sifted. My skimmer is an Aqua C EV 180, and my water volume is about 260g. The reason why I am not going with a 240 is because I only plan to add 2-3 more fish when I convert to the 180 (doubling my water column).
That being said, I agree also with Marrone, it depends on what you want to accomplish, and you should construct your system accordingly.
Consequently, my sump is a 50g ling and is bare bottom so I can siphon out any guck and my frag tank has crushed coral which will be monitored by an engineer goby.
Whew, need another beer.
House
FastUno - come on over with any test kit you like - nitrates = 0 in my main tank.
By the way - my current tank (and all past) have utilized all 3 methods of denitrification, Berlin, Jalabert and Shimeck (skimmer, plenum and DSB)
My current tank (92 bowfront)has plenum that covers (for all purposes) the whole tank bottom. It is about 2" high. I have 2" of CC on top of that - then I have about 4-5" of pure southdown which was seeded from my original 30g. Worms, pods etc all over the place. My skimmer is an Aqua C Remora Pro hang on back. It creates the nastiest skimmate.
I am heavily stocked and have about 12 fish - 4 of which are tangs which eat like cows (and consequently, sh** like cows). I feed every night and also hang a seaweed selects on every other night. Once a week I soak the mysis in garlic extract. This stuff make skimmate goo!
Ok, that being said, I believe Jackson, skimming is critical, but overskimming may not be best for your tank choice. Jackson, likes a low-nutrient environment so he can keep exotic SPS's (hence the name SPS Pimp)
I plan to keep a very mixed reef. That means I'll need additional nutrients feeding my tank (fuge) as well as a good skimmer to keep nutrients as low as possible or balanced) I do agree with you FU (hehehe Fast Uno abbreviated is FU) about clams as I have noticed that they polish the water nicely but still believe the best way to export nitrates is live rock, fuge, skimmer combo. Again, I keep about 1.75-2.0 lbs of LR per gallon in my tanks.
So, as discussed with Solbby, I plan to have a dsb in my fuge (so I can discard if it gets nasty) and a shalow sand bed in my main tank with tons of critter to keep it happy and sifted. My skimmer is an Aqua C EV 180, and my water volume is about 260g. The reason why I am not going with a 240 is because I only plan to add 2-3 more fish when I convert to the 180 (doubling my water column).
That being said, I agree also with Marrone, it depends on what you want to accomplish, and you should construct your system accordingly.
Consequently, my sump is a 50g ling and is bare bottom so I can siphon out any guck and my frag tank has crushed coral which will be monitored by an engineer goby.
Whew, need another beer.
House
Funny, I have had that screen nick for years & never saw that one coming. I guess sometimes a beer is needed to see things of that nature.
I have seen rockwork covered with coralline, to the point where just about nothing else grows. Are we then saying that coralline aids in the filtration? Could be? Perhaps it's more of a function of what grows on the rock? I am starting to be a non believer in live rock filtration either, although I use it. I only see areas for potential problems when it comes to live rock.
I have seen rocks so porous that they trap debris & users complain of constant high nitrates. Really there are so many more factors the we have not considered. But considering there are so many more unconsidered factors, it would seem that overskimming is the best option.
Best approach is a top down one. Start off with what would be the ideal conditions? I would say you can keep a stable as hell tank with only water & powerhead (heater/chiller). Great, so now you want to ruin everything by adding fish & corals. Take out that wallet cause we are going skimmer shopping, a must have (especially if you are going BB). Your powerful 400W or T5's are so good that they produce excessive micro growth in your tank (leading to nutrient build up cause of cell lysis..etc), lets add some clams for additional export.
Oh come on, now you want to add some rocks to make your tank look fuller & have something to attach your corals to. Great, now here comes some trouble with a solution that has some more minor trouble accompanied with it. We can add a cleanup crew that will eat up any overfeeding, they can stir up your rockwork some, & can pick things off your rock some, but will poop all that right into your water column. Glad we bought that big azz skimmer, aren't you?
Here we go again, now your not happy with a BB, you wanna go DSB. Now you will really be relying on your cleanup crew to stir things & hopefully start to remove all the crap that will get trapped in there. You know that it will build up over time so you have better made sure you got the really big azz skimmer, so we can skim all the leakage from the DSB over time.
There are many truths in the reefing hobby & many ways to accomplish the same task. It just so happens that mine was taken from a BB/little rock point of view & HOL's was taken with sand & plenty o'rock in mind. At least we all agree on the skimming part.
I am running an experimental tank setup with a plenum & DSB in another tank. Will you guys help me out with proper critter selection. I want to make this tank work & try to convince myself of the importance of a clean up crew (at least in a DSB).
[ May 28, 2005, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: FastUno ]
I have seen rockwork covered with coralline, to the point where just about nothing else grows. Are we then saying that coralline aids in the filtration? Could be? Perhaps it's more of a function of what grows on the rock? I am starting to be a non believer in live rock filtration either, although I use it. I only see areas for potential problems when it comes to live rock.
I have seen rocks so porous that they trap debris & users complain of constant high nitrates. Really there are so many more factors the we have not considered. But considering there are so many more unconsidered factors, it would seem that overskimming is the best option.
Best approach is a top down one. Start off with what would be the ideal conditions? I would say you can keep a stable as hell tank with only water & powerhead (heater/chiller). Great, so now you want to ruin everything by adding fish & corals. Take out that wallet cause we are going skimmer shopping, a must have (especially if you are going BB). Your powerful 400W or T5's are so good that they produce excessive micro growth in your tank (leading to nutrient build up cause of cell lysis..etc), lets add some clams for additional export.
Oh come on, now you want to add some rocks to make your tank look fuller & have something to attach your corals to. Great, now here comes some trouble with a solution that has some more minor trouble accompanied with it. We can add a cleanup crew that will eat up any overfeeding, they can stir up your rockwork some, & can pick things off your rock some, but will poop all that right into your water column. Glad we bought that big azz skimmer, aren't you?
Here we go again, now your not happy with a BB, you wanna go DSB. Now you will really be relying on your cleanup crew to stir things & hopefully start to remove all the crap that will get trapped in there. You know that it will build up over time so you have better made sure you got the really big azz skimmer, so we can skim all the leakage from the DSB over time.
There are many truths in the reefing hobby & many ways to accomplish the same task. It just so happens that mine was taken from a BB/little rock point of view & HOL's was taken with sand & plenty o'rock in mind. At least we all agree on the skimming part.
I am running an experimental tank setup with a plenum & DSB in another tank. Will you guys help me out with proper critter selection. I want to make this tank work & try to convince myself of the importance of a clean up crew (at least in a DSB).
[ May 28, 2005, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: FastUno ]
- Location
- Ossining, NY
FU,
heheheh, I have to laugh now every time I write that. No offense meant BTW.
I agree alot of what you said, too, but still am a firm beliver in the combo method (read curry method here
If I were you , in your esp tank, I would keep nassarius, mini brittle stars and a cuke. Thats my plan for the dsb fuge.
This is good conversation BTW, gives readers good different perspective to make educated choices of their own.
I once took a project management class, where the professor said that your answer as a PM should always be "it depends"
That being said, I need to add more sand to my DSB
House
heheheh, I have to laugh now every time I write that. No offense meant BTW.
I agree alot of what you said, too, but still am a firm beliver in the combo method (read curry method here
If I were you , in your esp tank, I would keep nassarius, mini brittle stars and a cuke. Thats my plan for the dsb fuge.
This is good conversation BTW, gives readers good different perspective to make educated choices of their own.
I once took a project management class, where the professor said that your answer as a PM should always be "it depends"
That being said, I need to add more sand to my DSB
House
I must admit I am laughing too, so I guess your name does properly apply.
So how many would you say I should put in a 26g tank? And where to get them at cheapest price?
Also, don't cukes pose a threat to the system? Potentially releasing toxins?
I have seen some impressive SB systems, & it amazes me how clean the SB is. I wonder how long it will last though?
[ May 28, 2005, 10:54 PM: Message edited by: FastUno ]
So how many would you say I should put in a 26g tank? And where to get them at cheapest price?
Also, don't cukes pose a threat to the system? Potentially releasing toxins?
I have seen some impressive SB systems, & it amazes me how clean the SB is. I wonder how long it will last though?
[ May 28, 2005, 10:54 PM: Message edited by: FastUno ]
I like how the sand gives the tank a more natural feel.
I have a BB tank though. I like how it looks, in a year or so I'll have a bottom of scroll coral and coraline. I like how the scroll coral waves back and forth. If i get tired of it, or it becomes a problem I can always peel it off the marina board and give it away. so my bottom is a SSC, shallow scroll coral
Jim, I would not put CC in the frag tank. It's just going to accumulate debris.
As for the buffer, you should not need one if you do proper water changes. which you do. why not put some white cutting board on the bottom, it will really light up that frag tank.
I have a BB tank though. I like how it looks, in a year or so I'll have a bottom of scroll coral and coraline. I like how the scroll coral waves back and forth. If i get tired of it, or it becomes a problem I can always peel it off the marina board and give it away. so my bottom is a SSC, shallow scroll coral
Jim, I would not put CC in the frag tank. It's just going to accumulate debris.
As for the buffer, you should not need one if you do proper water changes. which you do. why not put some white cutting board on the bottom, it will really light up that frag tank.
- Location
- Ossining, NY
JH,
I plan n housing all my blue leg hermits and algea blenny in thier as a clean up crew. I also designed it so I can siphon it out if I need to. I am building a hand on back holding rack for the fuge to accomodate this is I need to do this. BTW - the CC in the frag tank is like 1".
House
I plan n housing all my blue leg hermits and algea blenny in thier as a clean up crew. I also designed it so I can siphon it out if I need to. I am building a hand on back holding rack for the fuge to accomodate this is I need to do this. BTW - the CC in the frag tank is like 1".
House
I might have some larger blue legs to give you then. I have some that have grown bigger than they should have and are going after my snails.
I still don't get the CC, is it just for the buffer you want?
why not shallow sand that can't trap any junk?
I still don't get the CC, is it just for the buffer you want?
why not shallow sand that can't trap any junk?
CC is very efficient in trapping unwanteds, sorta like an undergravel filter. I have witnessed this first hand & have heard it from many others. I setup one in a very small section in a refugium & never again.
I would not dare go CC again.
I would not dare go CC again.
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