Deep sand beds?

[MikeC]

OK everyone is missing the point of a DSB. It is not meant to be a giant sponge to store the waste produced by the tank. It is there to allow a denitrification zone to form by allowing a gradient of oxygen from the maximim in the upper zone, to anoxic at the bottom zone.

So do you at least agree if you don't let nitrates build up in your system there shouldn't be a need for a denitrification zone?

Anything less than 4-6" will not allow for this oxygen gradient to form. (You can also think of it as the biggest piece of homemade live rock you can stick in your tank, in terms of denitrifying ability) It also allows for the slow release of Ca and other trace elements back into the water.

Oxygen gradient? im not sure what this is does this eat nitrates and detritus?
can you explain how that works for me.
I dont think there is a test kit for trace elements? I could be wrong.
Also the slow release of Ca is not enough for sps you are still going to need to dose or use a calcium reactor.

What other people discribe when they say their DSB is loaded with debris and biological waste, is a DSB system that is either too shallow too function, of have too much of a fish bioload for the DSB to handle. The original sucessfully runing aquariums, utilizing DSBs had very light bioloads, which allowed the sand bed itself to break down all the nutrients produced and maintain mineral levels in the water WITHOUT cloging the interstitial spaces with debris.

So again would you agree by your above statement if you don't allow debris & biological wast to build up in your system (DSB) it can handle more of a bioload?

The DSB was developed by Jaubert at the Monaco aquarium and the method is named after him. Here is one of the MANY links out there discribing his technique.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/9/aafeature

Agree it can work. I just saying it is not the only way or the best way IMOP.

From my personal experience, my 65 gallon tank has a foot print of 36 x 18 and is bare bottom. My sump/refugium is a 38 gallon (36 x 12) tank (totally filled with caluerpa)

What do you think keeps the caluerpa growing?
Ill tell you its fertilizer or food, it is a plant that needs to be feed to grow and what is fertilizer made of......POO!!!
if you have great success growing plants/algae in your glass box you have a lot of nitrates in your system to sustain it.

Im not trying to be a dick at all. Im just trying to get people to use their own brains and think about the logic and not just doing something because thats the way it was don in the past or they were told is the best way and didn't try to make sense out of it.

I agree it can be done both ways.
I just prefer good husbandry and a cleaner glass box.

Happy reefing

 

[jcs11236]

I had a sand bed that was around 4" in my nano. It use to always be dirty. I started getting rid of it during every water change. Now I have less than an inch. Love it. No junk on sand bed. Stays clean. Every few weeks I stir it around a bit.

 

[beastium]

That's cool to have a tank with a tang and some corals and shrimp. With no filtration just sand, Lr, current, and light. I Think DSB is most natural obviously, with anaerobic and more surface level bacteria that, correct me if I'm wrong, uses poo as fertilizer as well as algae. The top layer gets rocked all the time in the ocean but we have mechanical filtration for that. Even though its a tank and not the ocean it should emulate the sea more than a glass tank. Compared to the oceans floor what we consider a DSB is very shallow. The ocean floor has a long way down of all sand. Im not a marine biologist but i think a good amount of a mixture of crushed coral and fine sand sorted in layers by itself is the proper way to do it whether in a display or refugium. Freshwater top off= Rain. Skimmer + wetdry = crashing foaming waves. Algae+ sand bed = for nutrient cycle ; pumps= current. Mechanical filtration for water clarity. That's what I think

 

[Josh]

I'm slowly working my way down to a bare bottom from a DSB. Having emptied DSBs twice in my life, I can tell you that after a while they are straight up MUD. I can't say if it is a good thing or a bad thing, but once you see whats at the bottom of the sand bed you might think twice about building one.

 

[Adamc1303]

What about doing a DSB for keeping certain animals like garden Eels but having plenty of flow so detritus doesn't settle? Meaning keep treat and maintain the tank like a bare bottom or just 1" sand bed for the look but have the DSB. Does anyone see an issue with that? Will it still become a nitrate factory or will the flow keep the crap suspended so it makes it into the sump?

 

[beastium]

The mud is an integral part of the deep sand bed of the ocean. Mud is the anoxic level at the bottom near the sapropel, above that is anaerobic zone, then aerobic. Each level responsible for different chemical reactions. Oxygen and decaying organic matter is absorbed in and down through the anoxic and undergoing several ionic exchanges returns as nitrogen gas and carbon dioxide and necessary elements.
Thus
Im thinking a Deep sand bed is the most natural effective way to maintain a saltwater aquarium.

The only downside I see is the cloudiness or if you don't like the cross sectional view.

I guess also that with no deep sand you can blast current with little worries bc no sand to fly around while deep sand is stable in the fuge

There's a lot happening in the levels beneath the ocean floor sand besides crap buildup.

 

[MikeC]

Again this is a glass box not the ocean......., anoxic level,sapropel,anaerobic zone,aerobic REALLY? I'll have to admit it does sound smart

Although the great thing about this hobby is people can keep their tanks looking like the bottom of the bay and call it natural lol

To each his own

 

[Flushtown Reefer]

stevez15... it's up to you who you listen to.. someone who does this in their extra time or someone who has degrees and does it as a living. you can tell mikec hasn't done his research correctly which is why the DSB didn't work out for him.. you cant just throw 6" of any type of sand and think you have a DSB. You'll also need about 200 types of organisms living in it and it must never be disturbed. Beastium is someone who has done his research. Like I said I've seen it work without it looking like mud. "Again this is a glass box not the ocean......., anoxic level,sapropel,anaerobic zone,aerobic REALLY? I'll have to admit it does sound smart" LOL. It's not smarts its research.

 

[MikeC]

Flush town so your saying the only way to do it is a DSB?
No need to get upset we are just discussing two different options.

 

[Flushtown Reefer]

Definitely not the only way to go. I just get upset when people give false information. I have no clue about bare bottoms so if someone asks about bare bottoms, I'm not going to say a word. You gave DSBs a bad name because of your personal experience but many people have ran successful DSBs. You should have stated everything you said was an opinion based on what you went through. I can't give my opinion about DSBs because my tank is only a year old but so far so good

 

[beastium]

Lol at least someone knows the deal..
Its not the only way but its a great step to replicate what's required , in nature at least, in non-glassbox-use, for a stable marine system.
Id rather try to create a volume of water as similar to the ocean as possible than just a "glass box" u know? Im sure no/little substrate can work but you'll have more doodoo on the floor to clean.

Check it:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_7/volume_7_1/dsb/01.gif

As long as you know it does happen like this in the ocean where waste and decay turns into usable substance instead of a chore.

It needs to be deep and undisturbed though. Some of us put in work striving to keep glass boxes that are as close to the real thing that functions n takes care of itself as much as possible. Others wanna put in work to keep nitrates down and to cop reactors and siphonslol

That's what it is I guess just make it work.

 

[ClosetFishGeek]

I have been using a remote deep sandbed for a little over 8 months. I have to thank Anthony Calfo for this one. After discussing and utizing it I will never setup another system without it.

 

[MikeC]

I never said I used a DSB or had a bad experience?
What was false information?
You did give your opinion by saying I did not know what I was talking about.
When I fact you really can't back up a DSB because you have only had it for a year.

Please go back and re read my posts and tell me honestly you have never thought about it this way?

 

[e.muehlbauer]

FWIW, I never clean my sandbed, and it has never needed cleaning in my 16 years.

 

[beastium]

Again this is a glass box not the ocean......., anoxic level,sapropel,anaerobic zone,aerobic REALLY? I'll have to admit it does sound smart

Although the great thing about this hobby is people can keep their tanks looking like the bottom of the bay and call it natural lol

To each his own

This is very profound: its not about "sounding" smart, or "looking" natural.

Did u look at the diagram? That's what backs up the notion. If that doesn't convince you it at least makes sense then F it. LOL

 

[MikeC]

Lol at least someone knows the deal..
Its not the only way but its a great step to replicate what's required , in nature at least, in non-glassbox-use, for a stable marine system.
Id rather try to create a volume of water as similar to the ocean as possible than just a "glass box" u know? Im sure no/little substrate can work but you'll have more doodoo on the floor to clean.

Check it:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_7/volume_7_1/dsb/01.gif

As long as you know it does happen like this in the ocean where waste and decay turns into usable substance instead of a chore.

It needs to be deep and undisturbed though. Some of us put in work striving to keep glass boxes that are as close to the real thing that functions n takes care of itself as much as possible. Others wanna put in work to keep nitrates down and to cop reactors and siphonslol

That's what it is I guess just make it work.

O yes I'm not disagreeing with you at all on this is how it happens in the ocean.
At least we can agree to disagree on how we choose to keep our glass boxes lol

Thanks beastium

Now everyone lets see pics those full tank shots

 

[beastium]

Lol alright then.. damn glass boxes haha

 

[SteveZ15]

Well first off thanks to everyone who added to this topic.I learn alot from hearing everyones experiences and reading about dsp.The hard part about it is that both sides of this have logical things to them.As for my self this will be my first reef tank so I cant say i wont over feed or over stock.. Im sure it will take some time for me to find the sweet spot in the system as far as feeding coral and fish.IM sure if i put a dsb it pro wont be mature enough for the load in the tank,the croals i seem to like are the lps and shrooms and polyps which require feeding.For someone with my experience level I think a shallow bed will be a safe bet for me at first because I always have the option of cleaning it,since im sure ill do some rookie mistakes which might spike the system.I will add one in the fuge just to see how it works.I wont add any coral till at least 8 months after the thing has been running.I will start with some frags and see how they grow.In my fish tanks i never had any problems because of the tank maintenance.I will try a dsb one day,once i know i can keep the corals happy then ill move on to other experiments like dsb and harder corals to keep.The problem with this hobby is once you get into it you end up wanting more and more types of animals.I want to have my tank to be able to grow as i do in this hobby so i really dont want to strictly dedicate it to a specific type of coral.These forums are great for learning things and seeing different tanks and setups and most people have great results.I think im going to go to the manhattan aquarium store to look around see their tanks and pick up a skimmer if they have the one i want.looking at the octo sro 2000.thanks for your help till i post the next pita topic lighting lol..

 

[Josh]

I don't think you can compare what is happening in the ocean with our tanks, saying that the ocean has a deep sand bed has almost no relevance to our tanks. There are many other macro factors in the ocean related to the substrate for us to say that we should mirror that.

I don't think that DSBs are bad, for the first couple of years you will probably not have any problems. For any tank older than that, empty the DSB once and you will probably not ever want one again.

 

[beastium]

You have people here that testify its worked for over a Decade. What else would you compare it to. A lake?

If the ocean floor has little relevance to the bottom of a tank then you're trying to make a synthetic environment and a new type of habitat. That's cool.

Personally I like a mixture of mud, fine sand, coarse sand, and some crushed coral. Y not

And about other macro factors that is true. Like lava under the ground. Or current and upwelling. But the floor would be the same for the most part in reef portions of the sea right? The sand is less deep but still exhibits at least somee of the same reactions as a deep as possible sand bed in a fuge. and not as affected by magma or other marine biochemistry as in the aphotic and other non reef levels.

I doubt the natural setting our livestock is captured from will ever lose relevance. Although humans have done well genetically altering dogs and cats and clownfish for example , their basic respiratory needs are the same wouldnt u agree?

So I think hobbyists should try to cater to the organisms we raise to the utmost precision because the ocean is arguably the earths most complex habitat so whatever makes it happen there should work here.
At least it works for those who want to have more of a self sustaining tank not only to be lazy but to bug out how cool it is to have a marine system that works similar to how it does in nature. At least we know it isn't necessarily detrimental to a tank.

Edited *