Why so many fish problems

[Paul B]

It seems to me that there are so many posts asking how to care for a particular fish "after" it was bought. Copperbands and mandarins seem to be at the top of the list for advice, and both of those fish are not hard to care for but they do require just a little different methods to feed than something like a clown fish which will eat cardboard and still spawn. These fish should be fed what they were designed to eat and not "taught" to eat something you may have hanging around the house. Mandarins eat pods or any small "live" creature. Some will eat pellets or frozen food but that is not their diet and they will probably not live to their normal life span which is "probably" close to ten years or more. Copperbands live well over 10 years' but in the sea they eat worms as I have spent time with them underwater and that snout was designed to pull worms out of rocks. I always use live blackworms but earthworms are also fine if small enough. Frozen bloodworms are also fine if they are real "bloodworms" and not insect larvae that are often called bloodworms. Copperbands will also eat clams and clams are one of the best foods for them. Almost none of them will eat pellets or flakes and those foods should not be fed to anything in my opinion but especially copperbands and mandarins. Many people feed a mandarin frozen food and if it eats it, they feel that is a good thing. Well, it may be good for you, but that fish needs to eat every few seconds as it can not store that frozen food and it will just get pushed through a short tube that is has for a digestive system. It gets little nutrition from that as that is not how it was designed to eat. Mandarins are a very easy, disease resistant, little maintenance fish if they are put in the correct "mature" large enough tank that is not to sterile and is loaded with self replicating pods. If you have to add pods from a store, your mandarin will starve unless there are pods reproducing on their own. I have been keeping both mandarins and copperbands since the 70s and have no problems with either of them. If your mandarin is living on frozen food, it is also catching pods on it's own. An easy food to feed a mandarin is new born brine shrimp that should be offered every day in a feeder so the food stays near the bottom where that fish eats. This is all just my opinion of course.
Copperband and mandarins eating new born brine shrimp from a feeder.

Pregnant mandarin

 

[ducati335i]

good advice.. i never had problems w either.. I do qt all my fish and did buy a smaller copper band, died overnight... I just hate taking a chance at lfs.. i just added 3 wrasses in my qt, the ruby red died overnight... I did have a copperband for almost a year he ate mysis daily, up until the day he died.. he was pooping stringy.. may have been something internal..

 

[WTBClownfish]

I feed my mandarins NLS pellets. They are fed from a auto feeder 3 times a day. I have had them for almost 3 years. They have been spawning for the last 8 months. I never raised the fry. I also see them picking at pods.

 

[WTBClownfish]

good advice.. i never had problems w either.. I do qt all my fish and did buy a smaller copper band, died overnight... I just hate taking a chance at lfs.. i just added 3 wrasses in my qt, the ruby red died overnight... I did have a copperband for almost a year he ate mysis daily, up until the day he died.. he was pooping stringy.. may have been something internal..

Typo?

 

[greenstreet.1]

Quick question I've been thinking of stop feeding pellet foods. Do you feel that pellet foods are an important part of fish diet ? Reason I'm thinking of stopping is because I don't feel it's a natural part of there diet in the wild and also the nutrient problems they cause when they are not eaten.

 

[marrone]

There are many different type of pellets, all of which contain many different things. Unless you can supply what the fish eats in the wild then you need to supplement it will products that do, or have other things in them, which can take the place, not to mention that maybe better than what they're eating in the wild. There really isn't any reason to stop feeding fish pellets or flake food, unless it's all that you're feeding them and it's not what they should be eating.

Food aside, the big problem with keeping Copperband, and this also go for other fish that aren't aggressive eaters, is usually the tank mates that they are kept with. May people have kept Copperband in their Refug, sump, or tank without a lot of other fish, or with other very aggressive fish, and had them last for long periods. Problems usually happen when other, more aggressive, fish are introduced into the tank, which can hog up a lot of the food or push the fish into a corner of the tank, which usually leads to the fish dying.

 

[Paul B]

Hello Marrone. IMO flakes should not be fed to anything, but I know I am in the vast minority and people who make flakes still need to make a living. Pellets "May" be a little better but "any" food that does not need refrigeration has a problem. Wholesome foods "all" need refrigeration except peanut butter for some reason. Wholesome foods have vitamins in them and many, or most vitamins go bad without refrigeration or in the presence of oxygen which is why many vitamins come in capsules sealed from air. Fish oil which is very important (I take it myself every day) comes sealed in capsules for that reason. Also many vitamins do not take well to drying or baking which is what is done to all flakes and probably (but I am not sure) pellets. I myself use some pellets but I put some fish oil on them first. But the main thing I feed every day is live worms and clams that I buy live and freeze. There are also some good frozen foods for fish available that come in convenient portions. I use Ocean Plankton along with the worms and clams. I have no problem keeping mandarins or copperbands and virtually all of my paired fish are spawning as all paired fish should be doing. If they are not, they are not very healthy at all.
Now excuse me I must go and feed my manta ray and they eat a lot of worms.


Short video eating worms. Every fish in here (except the copperband) is spawning and that larger fireclown is about 24 years old.

 

[marrone]

Hi Paul

There are many different type of flake food, some good some just a waste to be feeding to your fish, but some are very good and make up for the parts of a fish diet that they don't get from some of the foods that we feed, and remember a lot of the fish just eat things like algae and sponges in the wild, no real meat in their diet, or at least not the bulk of it.

I know a number of people who live down in Florida and basically feed their fish things that they catch in the Gulf, and that's it. But most people can't do that, or can but only on a limited basis, so they need to feed them other things, likes pellets and soft foods, which contain things that the fish is missing in their diet. It's not like it use to be, the foods that are out there right now are really good and some of them are the reason why people have been able to get, and keep, fish that in the past have been either very hard, or almost impossible, to eat.

 

[duke62]

I had my copperband in my system for 3 years. It was a larger copperband when I got him so who knows how old he was. It just died last month :-(. It was in a tank with 5 tangs, 4 wrasses and some other smaller fish. It was the most aggressive eater in my tank hogging most of the food put in the tank. I just recently added a small copperband to my tank which is not eating any prepared food, mysis, brine, clam on a half shell, black worms or blood worms but it is pecking all around the rock work in my guess it eating fire worms and amphipods because it has gotten a lot chunkier since I introduced it to the system. It looks at all the food floating around like it wants to eat it but just turns away and again picks on the rocks. At the lfs it was eating brine shrimp so maybe when it runs out of fire worms maybe it will take some prepared foods. As the my mandarin it eats everything and is nice and fat. I feel you can not quarantine these fish in a separate system because there is nothing for them to eat in a QT. If you are going to buy these fish I think you should put them right in a established tank and keep them as healthy as you can to limit their stress

 

[Nandez13]

Good stuff Paul. My copperband wouldn't eat anything for about 3 weeks but now eats frozen myssis every day. Thinking about supplementing its diet with some blood worm as well.

I try to feed mostly frozen foods but if I'm in a rush or just feel like giving the tank a little extra food, then I'll use pellets (neither my copperband nor mandarin will eat pellets though)

 

[Paul B]

Marrone, I know foods are better now but even though I have been doing this for 60 years, I still have not been in a coma for the last 30, although I look like it. Frozen foods will always be better for the reasons I stated. Vitamins do not like to be dried, baked or stored at room temperature. Dried nori is OK for some tangs but it is not good by itself as it to is dried and stored. I find live foods such as worms to be the best with a whole animal such as a clam to be second best. That is why all of my paired fish are spawning. If you have paired fish that are not spawning, they are not healthy as all paired fish spawn all the time. If they are not spawning, something is missing as it is not natural for them to not spawn.


Duke, I agree about the quarantining. I personally do not have to quarantine and have not in 30 years. I feel more fish die in quarantine than in the tank. I do something else and I have wrote extensively on it, I am even writing a book now with this in it. I keep my fish in spawning shape and their immune system protects them from just about everything. Very few people will agree with me but if they have older fish that never got sick or an older tank that does not need quarantining I will consider myself wrong. How many years does my tank have to go disease free to prove this point? It is 43 years old, does it have to go 50 years disease free to prove it? Because it will be soon. If my tank crashes now, it has had one heck of a run. If you want to quarantine, that is fine, but while you are at it, get your fish into spawning shape so they stay healthy. There is a reason I have never posted in a disease forum in the 7 or 8 forums I am on. It is common sense but I don't want to re go into it here as I have done it to death.

 

[MIKE NY]

Part of the challenge of this hobby for me is keeping these harder to keep fish like my Tamarins, Leopards, Purpke Queens etcc.. The key as mentioned is a proper diet, but also their environment, water quality and tank mates. For many of these fish it's the acclimation process which could last a few days to a few weeks

 

[duke62]

I set up a QT in 07 and fish just dies in it. I never QT anymore. I do how ever throw them in my fuge for a week just to watch them eat and get some food in their belly before the introduction to the main tank where it will have to compete for their food

 

[Sharkbait420]

I use to feed hakari massivore during breeding season. When I feed frozen and live I was getting a bunch of wind eggs and no fertalization after mating. Once I started including massivore my fertalization rate was near 100%. Shedds also uses massivore for many of their breeders.

 

[marrone]

Paul....Feeding worms and clams maybe find for some fish but not all fish. Fish that eat algae and sponges, or even pods, in the wild, worms and clams isn't what they should be fed, as it doesn't meet their diet requirements by a long shot. As for food, well it has come a long way over the last 10 years. Whether it be frozen, pellet, or flake these new foods have made keeping fish, that in the past were very hard to get started eating, let alone once they did, to have them eat the right thing to keep them alive, but not only alive but thriving. And I'm not saying just to fed one type, but a variety of foods.

As for fish spawning, well Damsels and Clown fish will spawn regardless of what you feed them or conditions, hell I don't even feed my Clown fish that much, only Spectrum Thera+ pellets every so often, and they spawn almost like clock work every two weeks. You'll find the same with Mandarins, a lot of people have had them spawn in their tanks without feeding any special food. Back in the early 80's I had a pair that use to spawn all the time, and all that I ever fed them was Formula I in the frozen flat pack. Then again I now have a pair of clowns, where the male want to spawn, but all the female wants to do is kill him, and both are very healthy. Now I'm not saying that food isn't import, it is, especially for some fish, but tank conditions, setup and water quality also play a big part.

Paul, sorry, but telling people not to QT their fish is very bad advise. More healthy fish, fish which have been in peoples tanks for many many years, let alone some which have been breeding too, have been killed by people putting fish directly into their MT instead of QT them first. And remember, health fish can and do die from people not QT, it happens all the time.

I think the big problem that people have keeping fish alive when they QT fish is setting up and maintaining, especially the maintaining part. Over time the ammonia and such can be a problem, which does led to fish dying. But that shouldn't be a reason not to do it, as you're risk not only losing the one fish but all your fish if you take a chance and don't.

 

[MikeC]

Hi Paul
Hope all is well with you and your family.
I know I have said this before but just wanted to say Thank You again for sharing your years and years of experience

Much appreciated

 

[Paul B]

Marrone, hello again. I know we have always disagreed about quaranting and I don't endorse "not" quarantining unless you have my tank. I just quoted what I do and have been for decades. If I were to start a new tank, I would have to quarantine for a while until I got my fish into breeding mode as they should be. I know people disagree with me and that is fine, I am not here to be the aquarist of the year or anything else but I can 't lie about what I think is best just as other people swear by quarantining. I don't like to discuss this as I am to old for the arguements. But I am going to go into it slightly now even though I think it is a mistake as I have written about this extensively and it is in my book. I have done quite a lot of studying the immune systems of fish and fish in great shape are immune from almost everything on their own with little help from us. I just wrote something on fish slime I think on here someplace. In their slime are antiparasitic properties that work very well to discourage and kill parasites but the fish must be in great shape which is spawning. But the fish needs to be in contact with the parasites in the first place to become immune from them just as we need to be infected with bacteria and viruses to be protected from them. That is why we get inoculated with dead or weak viruses and bacteria so that our immune systems can recognize the invader. This hobby is still in the dark ages because many of us refuse to let natural biological processes proceed as we do in humans. I never said to just put fish in your tank, unless you have my tank or your fish are immune and "my" fish are because their body recognizes pathogens and fights them off naturally like their body was designed for them to do. I have said this so many times that I am exhausted. Why do my fish never get sick? Not even the 24 year olds? Why can I put any fish in my tank no matter how many parasites it has? Why is that? Am I that lucky or did I accidently come across a natural way to get fish and keep them immune which is a whole lot easier than keeping them in quarantine for 8 weeks in an un natural atmosphere. My method is to keep our fish very healthy, is that a bad thing? Why are there so many posts stating that a tank has ich even after quarantining everything? Why is that? It is because those fish have no resistance from pathogens and that is un healthy and un natural. So if you want to quarantine, thats fine, but get the fish verry healthy at the same time through healthy food, not IMO flakes for the reasons I stated above someplace. Here is an article I recently wrote. But Marrone, I am just advising people to get their fish into the best condition they can be in and from the many disease posts, they are not.
But Marrone, you are the moderator and if you like, I won't add my opinions here as I know they are controversial.
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/marine-fish-heal-through-slime-3962/

 

[Cu455]

When is your book coming out? I am looking forward to it.

 

[Paul B]

The book is in the works and I am up to the DIY part which takes forever because I designed so many things and I will rebuild some of these things, photograph and make sketches so people can build them if they like. I keep remembering things from the past as most of this stuff came out well before the internet or even computers came out. Now everyone does everything the same because of the net but I like to do things differently with my proven methods and not like everyone else. That is why I rarely buy things in Home Depot for outside my house, if you do that, your home will look like everyone elses home. I build my own Christmas decorations, fountains and even light fixtures. But I am working on this book as fast as I can. I also can't wait until it publishes. Of course some people (whos'e name I won't mention) will disagree with me on some things but if I say something about quarantining, I try to add as much as I can about how I came to that decision and in no case it will be that I read it from some one else. It is all my thoughts from my experiments except some medical details that I got from researchers as I am not a doctor or male model. But close. (not the doctor part)

Marrone, I agree about the clownfish and damsels, you can feed them old Life Magazines and they will live forever and spawn, but for this post I was talking more about seemingly more difficult fish which is why I pointed out mandarins and copperbands. From almost 50 years of diving I have learned what fish eat. I don't dive like a tourist, I have a boat and my own equipment but when I go to the tropics I find a guide who takes me to where the creature is that I want to study, they leave me alone until I run out of air or get eaten by bristle worms. Fish eat what they are supposed to eat. Some fish will live on just fish and nothing else. Lionfish, trumpetfish etc. Mandarins will live on pods and nothing else. Many other fish require some seaweeds but even those fish should be fed whole meaty foods such as worms or whole fish. Fresh seaweeds such as available to fish in the sea is not available to most people and dried nori or flakes are not the same thing. Almost all fish in the sea eat fish fry.
See all the fry in this picture taken in the Keys? Those fry are virtually all over the place on a reef and that is what most fish snack on every day.
We can't get those but whole worms is very close.

 

[Ariel110G]

I can say about my Cooperband is that I find that it was easy to get him to eat, I did start with live worms from petland, and then gradually I got him to eat everything else, today he will eat any frozen food I'll put in my tank, he even eats nori, but will not east pelts or flakes. He is one of my favorite fish.