BAD idea and it won't happen.
Kudos to Minh Nguyen.
I commend everyone's concern and clear good intent. But government involvement, especially on the hobbyist level, is not appropriate.
And, who are we to self proclaim to be an expert!? I don't know about all of you folks, and while I may consider myself better educated on this particular topic but in no way am I an expert.
I realize that this thread is well intentioned by good caring people, but IMO but this thread is very judgemental and elitest sounding.
Happy "free" reef keeping. Sorry for the rant and no personal attacks intended.
PDD
Kudos to Minh Nguyen.
I commend everyone's concern and clear good intent. But government involvement, especially on the hobbyist level, is not appropriate.
And, who are we to self proclaim to be an expert!? I don't know about all of you folks, and while I may consider myself better educated on this particular topic but in no way am I an expert.
I realize that this thread is well intentioned by good caring people, but IMO but this thread is very judgemental and elitest sounding.
Happy "free" reef keeping. Sorry for the rant and no personal attacks intended.
PDD
I too feel that this thread is well intentioned, but where would this hobby be if nobody ever tried something new with a "difficult" animal? Huge advances are being made in keeping and breeding all sorts of marine fish and invertebrates and it is through research that we will be able to better protect these animals and begin to shift towards captive-raised animals that will not deplete the oceans.
I will have to disagree on the licensing idea, but I would love to see a system set up where each specimen could be rated on it's likelyhood to survive in captivity of someone who has been keeping reefs for <year, 1-2 years, 2-5 years, and >5years. Just knowing how things fare in the "expert's" hands would go along ways towards encouraging and discouraging new reefers from killing animals before they have the knowledge needed to even have a chance.
This is all just my opinion, but as stated earlier sometimes good ideals are just not feasible with human nature the way it is.
I will have to disagree on the licensing idea, but I would love to see a system set up where each specimen could be rated on it's likelyhood to survive in captivity of someone who has been keeping reefs for <year, 1-2 years, 2-5 years, and >5years. Just knowing how things fare in the "expert's" hands would go along ways towards encouraging and discouraging new reefers from killing animals before they have the knowledge needed to even have a chance.
This is all just my opinion, but as stated earlier sometimes good ideals are just not feasible with human nature the way it is.
Mary, I must agree with Lefty on this point. I feel that there is more than adequate information at the finger tips of anyone who has the resources to start up a reef tank. How many people on these reef boards already new the risks involved when they purchased a Goniopora, but went ahead and purchased it anyway? I have been keeping a reef for 8 months and am already considered the resident expert at my LFS, that to me is sad. My LFS has many top notch books for sale and yet they only sell one every 8 months, while someone starts up a new reef every month. My LFS gives a free book to all people who buy a new set up (mostly freshwater), and yet I see these same people come back one day after they took their tank home purchasing a sack full of fish. I have asked many of these people "how did you enjoy the book", 100% of them said I haven't had time to read it yet. Unfortunately I see this same mentality with salt water people, the only difference is they have more money.
Steve
Steve
Bad idea and I'm afraid it may happen.
If reef hobbyists aren't alarmed by this idea then the voting public sure wouldn't be. Those of you who support this idea are not alarmed because you consider yourselves experts. Think again. The controlling group is never as large as all of us. The control will be with a committee of a non-profit organization. This is elitist thinking. We currently have the freedom to keep what we choose and the responsibility to choose to keep those animals that are within our knowledge and ability. Many people who sense that others are irresponsible would rather trade that freedom for regulating other peoples behavior. I would not make that trade.
GavAn, that is a misunderstanding of American "checks and balances". Checks and balances help prevent one group from exercising power over another. It does not limit peoples freedom. Quite the opposite. It helps to preserve it. It is not a check on freedom. It is a check on people who want to take it away.
If reef hobbyists aren't alarmed by this idea then the voting public sure wouldn't be. Those of you who support this idea are not alarmed because you consider yourselves experts. Think again. The controlling group is never as large as all of us. The control will be with a committee of a non-profit organization. This is elitist thinking. We currently have the freedom to keep what we choose and the responsibility to choose to keep those animals that are within our knowledge and ability. Many people who sense that others are irresponsible would rather trade that freedom for regulating other peoples behavior. I would not make that trade.
GavAn, that is a misunderstanding of American "checks and balances". Checks and balances help prevent one group from exercising power over another. It does not limit peoples freedom. Quite the opposite. It helps to preserve it. It is not a check on freedom. It is a check on people who want to take it away.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SPC:
<STRONG>PDD and 2poor, I would like to see this thread continue and that is why I am about to ask you these questions, nothing personal here. Do you see any problems with the marine trade and if so then how would you go about correcting them?
Steve</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There are problems with the marine trade. There are many species that are collected that should not. This is one of the biggest one. The other major problems are the methods of collection and the moralities of animals in transport.
To restrict who can keep or buy these animals is NOT a solution to the problem. The collectors and the wholesalers with pressure from us should self police and not collect them. This is the only variable solution. If we cannot do this, and even if we can do this, there will be a total or partial ban on importing to the US marine organism for aquarium trade. If there is a partial ban, which organism that will be ban from importing is not up to us. I just hope, however unlikely, that our 'leader' will listed to appropriate expert and ban a sensible list of animals.
Don't ever think that this will not happen. It happened in various trades including plants (orchids) and birds.
<STRONG>PDD and 2poor, I would like to see this thread continue and that is why I am about to ask you these questions, nothing personal here. Do you see any problems with the marine trade and if so then how would you go about correcting them?
Steve</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There are problems with the marine trade. There are many species that are collected that should not. This is one of the biggest one. The other major problems are the methods of collection and the moralities of animals in transport.
To restrict who can keep or buy these animals is NOT a solution to the problem. The collectors and the wholesalers with pressure from us should self police and not collect them. This is the only variable solution. If we cannot do this, and even if we can do this, there will be a total or partial ban on importing to the US marine organism for aquarium trade. If there is a partial ban, which organism that will be ban from importing is not up to us. I just hope, however unlikely, that our 'leader' will listed to appropriate expert and ban a sensible list of animals.
Don't ever think that this will not happen. It happened in various trades including plants (orchids) and birds.
I have enjoyed the discussion in these two threads SPC. No offense taken. There are definitely problems with the way animals are collected, transported and kept in our hobby. Is there any area of human life where there are no problems? Fundamentally, I do not believe I have the right to dictate, even by consensus, my rules onto others. I believe I have the responsibility to ensure that I am not part of the problem, and to help others to share that view through dialog like occurs on this board and in clubs, etc. This is what I do. The results are that a portion of the reefkeeping community is responsible and a portion is not. Just like life in general.
The ultimate solution which would not restrict an individuals choice IMO is to raise the cost of irresponsible reefkeeping. When wild caught animals are substantially more costly then two things will happen. First, the hobby will be prohibitively expensive for people who routinely lose animals in their tanks. Second, captive propagation will become more economical in comparison.
How will wild caught corals become significantly more expensive? By any of the foolowing mechanisms: A reduction in the supply of animals, by an increase in the cost of collection, by a deposit required on certain species. I could go for any of these options.
You can reduce supply by protecting the reefs and curtailing collection. I do not support irrational bans if they are not warranted. But where they are warranted I wholeheartedly support them. You can require a fee for the collection of certain species that makes that species expensive to keep, since the collector has to pass on the increased cost to the retailer. This fee could be used to provide research or education on that species. Lastly, retailers could be required to collect a deposit on certain species sold. After a certain period of time you could redeem your deposit if you had successfully kept/propagated the animal.
Just some ideas off the top of my head.
The ultimate solution which would not restrict an individuals choice IMO is to raise the cost of irresponsible reefkeeping. When wild caught animals are substantially more costly then two things will happen. First, the hobby will be prohibitively expensive for people who routinely lose animals in their tanks. Second, captive propagation will become more economical in comparison.
How will wild caught corals become significantly more expensive? By any of the foolowing mechanisms: A reduction in the supply of animals, by an increase in the cost of collection, by a deposit required on certain species. I could go for any of these options.
You can reduce supply by protecting the reefs and curtailing collection. I do not support irrational bans if they are not warranted. But where they are warranted I wholeheartedly support them. You can require a fee for the collection of certain species that makes that species expensive to keep, since the collector has to pass on the increased cost to the retailer. This fee could be used to provide research or education on that species. Lastly, retailers could be required to collect a deposit on certain species sold. After a certain period of time you could redeem your deposit if you had successfully kept/propagated the animal.
Just some ideas off the top of my head.
I know that I for one am thinking hard about Mary's statement " how many of you participated in that". Is it possible that there are things going on already that we could be participating in that would change the hobbie for the better? Do we really need to think of something new, or should we work with Mary and her group to bring about change.
Steve
Steve
Just for clarification, MAC is not "my group". It is an organization made up of leaders from the marine ornamental industry and conservation organizations. As a board of director for both MAC and the American Marinelife Dealers Assocation (www.amdareef.com), (AMDA is the only organization in the United States dedicated to marinelife dealers) I am a good contact point for things you guys are interested in doing. I spend time on these boards for two reasons- to educate hobbyists about the industry and to get a feel for what the hobbyists want from the industry. Any input you have is ALWAYS appreciated! By working together, I think the industry and hobbyists can gain a better understanding of what each wants/needs. Unfortunately few industry professionals are willing to do this. If you guys want to work with/through me to bring about change, I'm THRILLED! That's what I've been trying to do on these boards for the past 2.5 years, and in the industry for the past 12.
Mary, where are the info? Is there somewhere we can check up on the progress on it? Curious and eager to know more.
I truly believe most of us on this board are practicing the self policing already, either mentally or financially. Think how many unsuccessful reefer could keep-on throwing piles of $$ into this deep hole? After all, I believe this is a very expensive hobby for average citizen.
I truly believe most of us on this board are practicing the self policing already, either mentally or financially. Think how many unsuccessful reefer could keep-on throwing piles of $$ into this deep hole? After all, I believe this is a very expensive hobby for average citizen.
There is a fine line between a foolish hobbiest buying something they don't know about and can't keep, and a researcher experimenting with a new method to further our hobby. There is also a fine line between an ignorant hobbiest buying something from an educated LFS, and an educated hobbiest buying something from an ignorant LFS.
Most 'difficult' specimens do very well in the wild, without a hobbyist, and without anyone who knows anything. They simply need the right conditions to thrive. In general, the less success hobbiests had in the past with a species, the less what we 'know' about keeping that species is correct.
I hate dealing with an LFS that 'knows' more than I do about something (someone who 'knows' reefs work better with a wet-dry, who 'knows' you don't need to worry about water chemistry if you use aragonite, and 'knows' the easiest corals are harder to keep then all but the hardest of fish). I have dealt with LFS that had these opinions, not amatures, but people with years of experience, who are generally right about everything else. I do not want to be stopped from buying something because of these opinions.
Most 'difficult' specimens do very well in the wild, without a hobbyist, and without anyone who knows anything. They simply need the right conditions to thrive. In general, the less success hobbiests had in the past with a species, the less what we 'know' about keeping that species is correct.
I hate dealing with an LFS that 'knows' more than I do about something (someone who 'knows' reefs work better with a wet-dry, who 'knows' you don't need to worry about water chemistry if you use aragonite, and 'knows' the easiest corals are harder to keep then all but the hardest of fish). I have dealt with LFS that had these opinions, not amatures, but people with years of experience, who are generally right about everything else. I do not want to be stopped from buying something because of these opinions.
I continue to see posts that assume the intent is for the government or some police force to be involved. The is reference to elitism. If ther eis a careful reading of my posts, you will see that the intent is for us to check ourselves. There seems to be general agreement that the government will eventually become involved. I agree. Do you not think it better for us to already have something that we have been doing to simply improve our own knowledge and understanding of the animals we keep?
There was no intent in my beginning this post to involve anyone or agency in the "license" issue. It was a word I used for lack of a better one. Perhaps certification , anything, simply an agreement amongst ourselves that unless we can learn what an organisms natural habitat and feeding requirements are, we shouldn't keep them. There are no coral/fish police, yet, to enforce the idea. It is easy to say, oh I know what I am doing and another to show it. Someone has a signature that says unless you can explain it to yuor grandmother, you don't understand it. It is basically the same suggestion I made. There are many who already do the research and won't keep moorish idols, goniopora, etc because they are difficult/impossible to keep. There are also advanced aquarists that push the envelope further. I no way do I suggest that this should stop. There will always be the need for this type of action. The individual that undertakes these animals should have some level of understanding of their requirements first or the natural end is death. Kind of like trying to keep an open brain on the reef crest. Slightly different environment than is common for tem, wouldn't yosay. Ihave really enjoyed some of the posts and the exchange of knowledge that goes on, but I would like to see the topic I started addressed.
There was no intent in my beginning this post to involve anyone or agency in the "license" issue. It was a word I used for lack of a better one. Perhaps certification , anything, simply an agreement amongst ourselves that unless we can learn what an organisms natural habitat and feeding requirements are, we shouldn't keep them. There are no coral/fish police, yet, to enforce the idea. It is easy to say, oh I know what I am doing and another to show it. Someone has a signature that says unless you can explain it to yuor grandmother, you don't understand it. It is basically the same suggestion I made. There are many who already do the research and won't keep moorish idols, goniopora, etc because they are difficult/impossible to keep. There are also advanced aquarists that push the envelope further. I no way do I suggest that this should stop. There will always be the need for this type of action. The individual that undertakes these animals should have some level of understanding of their requirements first or the natural end is death. Kind of like trying to keep an open brain on the reef crest. Slightly different environment than is common for tem, wouldn't yosay. Ihave really enjoyed some of the posts and the exchange of knowledge that goes on, but I would like to see the topic I started addressed.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 2poor2reef:
<STRONG>... There are definitely problems with the way animals are collected, transported and kept in our hobby. Is there any area of human life where there are no problems? Fundamentally, I do not believe I have the right to dictate, even by consensus, my rules onto others. I believe I have the responsibility to ensure that I am not part of the problem, and to help others to share that view through dialog like occurs on this board and in clubs, etc. This is what I do. The results are that a portion of the reefkeeping community is responsible and a portion is not. Just like life in general.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ditto.
The term elite does not indicate government but "a superior group".
For example,"... but those that are "more educated and advanced" ... it would be fairly easy to at least come up with a local "compact" between ourselves. We could come up with a test that would grade us on our knowledge of the corals/fishes requirements and our ability to meet them in our individual tank. Until the test is administered by the administrators and passed, we would agree to not keep specimens."
I like the idea of a self check system but that lies within the individual and not others.
Thanks for the interesting discussion.
PDD
[ June 20, 2001: Message edited by: PDD ]
<STRONG>... There are definitely problems with the way animals are collected, transported and kept in our hobby. Is there any area of human life where there are no problems? Fundamentally, I do not believe I have the right to dictate, even by consensus, my rules onto others. I believe I have the responsibility to ensure that I am not part of the problem, and to help others to share that view through dialog like occurs on this board and in clubs, etc. This is what I do. The results are that a portion of the reefkeeping community is responsible and a portion is not. Just like life in general.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ditto.
The term elite does not indicate government but "a superior group".
For example,"... but those that are "more educated and advanced" ... it would be fairly easy to at least come up with a local "compact" between ourselves. We could come up with a test that would grade us on our knowledge of the corals/fishes requirements and our ability to meet them in our individual tank. Until the test is administered by the administrators and passed, we would agree to not keep specimens."
I like the idea of a self check system but that lies within the individual and not others.
Thanks for the interesting discussion.
PDD
[ June 20, 2001: Message edited by: PDD ]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SteveNichols:
<STRONG>....you will see that the intent is for us to check ...Perhaps certification , anything, simply an agreement amongst ourselves that unless we can learn what an organisms natural habitat and feeding requirements are, we shouldn't keep them. There are no coral/fish police, yet, to enforce the idea. .....The individual that undertakes these animals should have some level of understanding of their requirements first or the natural end is death......</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Who are you (or we) to decide that someone is more qualify than another to keep these animals? To some new reefers or other reefers who doesn't agree with you (or us) this would be just a bunch of self-appointed 'experts' that are hypocritical and self-serving.
The best 'restriction' would be at the collection site. Experts who like to study and research a particular species should arrange for collection of the animals’ them-self.
Steve, please do not take offense in this post. I agree with you that some thing should be done. I try my best to not be part of the problem and help when I can. I think any non-voluntarily imposed restriction at the retail level is doom to failure. It is impossible to enforce. Worse than failure, it will spark a backlash you would not believe.
<STRONG>....you will see that the intent is for us to check ...Perhaps certification , anything, simply an agreement amongst ourselves that unless we can learn what an organisms natural habitat and feeding requirements are, we shouldn't keep them. There are no coral/fish police, yet, to enforce the idea. .....The individual that undertakes these animals should have some level of understanding of their requirements first or the natural end is death......</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Who are you (or we) to decide that someone is more qualify than another to keep these animals? To some new reefers or other reefers who doesn't agree with you (or us) this would be just a bunch of self-appointed 'experts' that are hypocritical and self-serving.
The best 'restriction' would be at the collection site. Experts who like to study and research a particular species should arrange for collection of the animals’ them-self.
Steve, please do not take offense in this post. I agree with you that some thing should be done. I try my best to not be part of the problem and help when I can. I think any non-voluntarily imposed restriction at the retail level is doom to failure. It is impossible to enforce. Worse than failure, it will spark a backlash you would not believe.
The "qualifications" are that we have an understanding of the creatures and the "typical environment. This is sort of to address the post of the type that says, "my SPS is dying and I dont know why. The Lighting is 1-40W NO fluorscent, Ca 300, Alk 4 dKh. I have 1 65gph powerhead. What is wrong?" I am not suggesting that we say "You can't keep it because you are an idiot
" but I am suggesting that if we don't buy the animals that we aren't equipped to keep, they won't die. It is an easy way to find out if we know as much about the animals as we think we do. If we "fail" the test, either we don't have the knowledge of the species we want or the environment we have is totally unsuited to the creature, like the above example
. I know there are many of us that already do the research before hand and want to do the best for the animals. This could be another check.
Steve, this is what I feel about your concept, the way I understand it. The ones who would sign up are already the ones with the knowledge and experience. I dont see people who have done there homework comming to these boards and asking basic questions, what I see are people who did not look before they bought, get into trouble, and want someone else to bail them out. This hobby is allways going to have those that take responsibility and those that dont, just like life. You guy's spend time around your LFS, what % of people do you see that research an animal before they buy it, or that even know what the nitrogen cycle is before they set up a tank, and on and on. If the animal is offered for sale people will buy it, most will kill it, and then take up a new hobbie were they dont have to think as much.
My main point is that we have to face up to the reason most people buy aquarium animals, they look good in their living room. I think until we face this fact, we cant go forward with any type of solutions.
Steve
My main point is that we have to face up to the reason most people buy aquarium animals, they look good in their living room. I think until we face this fact, we cant go forward with any type of solutions.
Steve
SPS,
I agree with you, mostly.
If the more "advanced" reefers had the "license", I think more of the "less informed" and newbes would be attracted to the concept. Sort of like a moth to flame
. Forgive the pun.
I could just be an ignorant idealist, tilting against windmills.
At least I now have some idea of how soon the bans are coming.
I agree with you, mostly.
You know I have decided after this thread and the Australia thread, I have had enough. I am going to keep my tanks and keep supporting captive propagation and call it a day.
It would seem humans are a speicies that is going to keep making the same mistakes over and over untill nothing is left.
The importers and dealers will become much more orginized than any hobbist ever will. They will keep destroying the reefs until local authorities step in when something is on the verge of extintion. Bans will be passed that do nothing to actually save the speicies. If you think importers and dealers will ever conduct themselves ethically take a close look at The American Kennel Club. The largest and most corrupt such organization.
What is truely disheartening is the fact that the average reef owner has some college and is usually successful in thier proffession and yet we are determined to travel the same corrupted road that every other society of exotic animal owner has gone down.
I guess I will be back to this issue when something is on te verge of extinction and every one is saying it was not my fault.
Now back to enjoying my tank.
It would seem humans are a speicies that is going to keep making the same mistakes over and over untill nothing is left.
The importers and dealers will become much more orginized than any hobbist ever will. They will keep destroying the reefs until local authorities step in when something is on the verge of extintion. Bans will be passed that do nothing to actually save the speicies. If you think importers and dealers will ever conduct themselves ethically take a close look at The American Kennel Club. The largest and most corrupt such organization.
What is truely disheartening is the fact that the average reef owner has some college and is usually successful in thier proffession and yet we are determined to travel the same corrupted road that every other society of exotic animal owner has gone down.
I guess I will be back to this issue when something is on te verge of extinction and every one is saying it was not my fault.
Now back to enjoying my tank.
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