Don't Believe the HYPE! (skimmer discussion)

[fritz]

Over all, I'm really not trying to beat any skimmers up, even though my bias is well out in the open. I think the issue here is the hype we give some products as possibly being the end all and be all of aquarium husbandry. We've all seen threads like that. I can't tell you all the products I see people talking up.
I also went Beckett because there was no hype, just proof. I was looking through all of my favorite tanks. For the record, on my top 10 favorite tanks, 3 members here are on that list (Rich, Kedd and Tony Acropora). As you guys know, I like to look for common denominators in things. And what I found out of my favorite 10 tanks, all 10 use becketts. I know they cost more to operate, but who cares, drop down to a lower wattage return pump.

Now that's a good reason to pick a skimmer.

Also Shaun doesn't use a Sea Clown, he uses my old ASM G2 that I thought was too small for my 58! hahaha.

 

[Pedro]

Well going back to topic:

I use Dell laptops even though a Panasonic tough book is built better. I don't hit softballs with my laptop and I don't drop it down stairs. I also don't ever pull my skimmer out of the sump except to clean it. I don't need a skimmer that can take an attack with a baseball bat, just one that doesn't leak.

Dude thanks for the laugh, those analogies cracked me up.

 

[loismustdie]

That's it, Fred. My equipment is dictated by my preferred maintenance techniques and proven results. I believe in aggressive nutrient addition followed by even more aggressive nutrient removal and overall stability. This basically means that I feed a lot and keep lots of fish, but I have good skimming and I'm a big supporter of changing water. I also dose. So I have the beckett skimmer assisting my nutrient removal and the Dialyseas does auto top off, and dosing in small amounts multiple times per day for stability and water changes for further nutrient removal. I've never seen anyone with proven results with the Dialyseas, so I'll admit that I did take a gamble there. I love it, but I'll still say $3000 is a lot of money. Buying a Dialyseas is all up to how much your time is worth. As a big water change guy, it is worth it for me. I don't have to change water, yet it still gets done. About 1/3 of my total water volume per month.

Dude thanks for the laugh, those analogies cracked me up.

This has been a good topic for analogies. They have been pretty funny.:biglaugh:

 

[Wes]

so ive been meaning to ask you about the dialyseas...if you could do it over again, would you?

I think it sounds like a great tool for large tanks and will consider one when it is time to go big.

 

[loismustdie]

I sent Jon an equipment review, but I really wasn't happy with it. I'd like to do it over. I may do a thread on it. Not sure if that's necessary though due to the fact that I don't think anyone really needs one. It's a luxury item.
In short, It is an RO/DI system, a dialysis membrane which removes ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate, etc. directly from the water column, and an automation system which does auto top-off, water changes, dosing, control and monitoring.
I can go deeper into it in PM if you want.
It's nice. I really do love it, but it's way too expensive. Figuring it out though, if I were to build one, I can't see it costing much less once a reasonable profit is figured in.
Knowing what I know now, if I were to do it again, yes I would buy it, but I would still complain about the cost.
For me and my applications, I feel it's worth it. If I upgrade, it's not like I have to upgrade the Dialyseas. If not, I like it on my system.

 

[Kedd]

Buying a Dialyseas is all up to how much your time is worth. [/quote]


Loismustdie, This says it all.
Even though my wife's head would spin around, 3k would be worth it in my busy season.
Time is money..

Then I wouldn't have anything to do in the winter:scratchch .

Maybe I can work on the Quote button.lol

Kedd

 

[jackson6745]

The problem with comparing skimmers is that there is little in the way of objective data. People like to talk about LPM because it is one of the few hard numbers you can come by, yet I think that to a certain extent it is meaningless. I could run 20 LPM through a tube of water and get nothing out of it, or it could pull out the nasties, depending on contact time and bubble size.

When I bought my skimmer (DAS Ex-2), I looked at a lot of different types of skimmers. I choose a needle wheel for two reasons. 1.) I did not want the large pump needed to run them. Space is a premium underneath my tank (65 gallon), and the way things are laid out I would have needed to use a submersable pump and didn't want to have the added heat to the system. 2.) Noise levels. I am somewhat skeptical of this as my skimmer sucks alot of air and you can hear it. Most of the becketts I have seen have been in seperate rooms where I didn't really pay attention to the noise level.

Matt, I've seen your skimmer suck 20LPM (I did own this at one point). That's a lot for the size of this skimmer. Do you think it is a coincidence that it performs well and sucks a lot of air? Actually can you name a skimmer that doesn't suck a good amount of air yet still performs well?

If you mess around with the wire brush impellars you can get even more air and better performance with those pumps (ask spykes).
I would put this skimmer up agains a Deltec APF600 anyday. At a fraction of the price the DAS EX-2 is a great alternative to the Deltec AP600 or APF600.

Most important aspects of a skimmer (not directed towards you matt )

1)AIR
2)Control of water height/foam type
3)relative cost
4)Electrical consumption
5) "contact time" or rather adequate time for the bubbles to calm down. Turbulent bubbles don't foam well.
6) whatever else I am forgetting

As for bubble size....I don't know. All the decent skimmers that I tried and have seen had pretty much the same size tiny little bubbles in the neck. Better skimmers just had more of them and produced more skimmate.


IMO The new wire brush impellar pumps will make needlwheels obsolete.
As for the ATI bubblemaster. I am not defending it. The acrylic tube looks like a BK and the seams are pretty clean. That stupid riser tube is a POS on the GEN 2 skimmer but it seems they did away with it on the gen 3 ATI's.

The ATI pumps rock. 20LPM at 25watts. How can you beat it at that price. you can probably put these pumps on any skimmer and make it awesome.

 

[Wes]

yeah if i went w/ a dialyseas i would probably not get that overhyped $3K skimmer.

I am planning a big setup when we move to the burbs to make babies...And it sounds like it would save alot of time on messing around w/ those massive water changes.

 

[jackson6745]

Skimmers and hype - way too much of it

I have a skimmer that has two Eheims connected to it. Its a needlewheel. I have no idea how much LPM it pulls nor do I care. The fact is that the skimmer works. On RC and anywhere else the hype right now is more LPM. Yeah if I wnted a geyser I could add a mesh wheel but I want a skimmer not a geyser.

An expensive skimmer or even the best skimmer does not make a good reefer. It just means that you have cash to burn.

Someone with real knowledge of the hobby can run a reef without a skimmer. Just pure husbandry alone will do it. Back in the day we did not have skimmers. A skimmer is just a tool to make maintenance a less time consuming thing.

(On a side note - I agree that you cant beat a beckett in terms of performance. I just got a needlewheel because of the noise factor)

Oh Herman You're killiing me here

Herman a skimmerless SPS reef can be run. If you want great colors you will have to rely on water changes, low bioload, refugium, carbon, ozone, and phosban (not necessarily all of them). I went the natural SPS route already. Sux a$$

What it comes down to is results and most great SPS reefs have BIG skimmers (and so do you )

The reason why you can't beat a beckett performance......I've never seen a NW skimmer pull 70lpm This really doesn't matter for this discussion though.

 

[jackson6745]

Well I bought my Deltec and was disappointed. First it leaked in two places. I sent Doug an email only to have him want me to take a picture of it. Which I did. Weeks went by I havent heard a thing back from him. Thats been my experience with deltec.

Now as far as performance, I am really pleased with the Deltec. I had an MRC MR-2 with a Mag 24 previously and although I got more skimmate from it I am happy with the Deltec's performance. Especially since I no longer need a chiller to offset all the heat that MRC was introducing.

Eric your mag drive added 3 degrees to my reef. How's the skimmate comparison?

 

[spykes]

LPm needs to be accounted to the body size and also the bubble size. I dont care if half the board doesnt think LPM matter. You can have 8lpm in a 5 inch cylinder and a 2.5 inch neck, and you can have 8lpm on a 8 inch body and a 2.5 inch neck and the 5 inch body will beat the 8 inch. LPm has to go according to the skimmer body size or else it wont skim efficiently.

 

[nyfireman3097]

GREAT now I have to get rid of my BK lmao. Im with Chris here on the dialyseas I would without a doubt buy it again if I had to I love mine. As far as skimmers I am a firm believer in you get what you pay for in ALL aspects of life. When I had my BK on my 180g I would go a month or 2 w/o maintaining my tank and the BK helped out alot from my tank not blowing up because of my laziness. You can beleive what you want to believe about any skimmer if your happy with it thats all that matters. Spikes your correct BUT your totally not grasping what everyones saying. There saying more of the BIG thing all of sudden with mine pulls 20 lpm and yours pull 19 lpm so mines better.

 

[herman]

Oh Herman You're killiing me here

:sgrin: I have to balance out all the niceness I give out all day :Blurp:

 

[jackson6745]

Nick, zeo has you brainwashed :biglaugh:

 

[nyfireman3097]

lol not using it

 

[jackson6745]

lol not using it

LOL...great reply:biglaugh:

 

[reefman]

Don't believe the hype - its a sequel
cause beckett's here- n theres no equal

 

[jackson6745]

reefman I had to quote that :thrash:

 

[boozeman]

I think that you also have to factor in customer service into the equation. that is why many aquarists chose Deltec over H&M even though they are basically the same skimmer

 

[fritz]

I chose Deltec for both customer service and skimmer height.