If an LFS offers for sale "hard to keep" corals/fish, is it wrong to purchase them? As concerned hobbyists, I feel we have little impact on what a LFS will sell, the almighty dollar dictates what will be offered for sale. Someone will purchase that "hard to keep" animal, and I feel that it will probably have a better chance for survival in my tank than somewhere else. If whoever purchases these animals and makes no effort to try to provide them the environment they need, or nobody buys it...it will die anyway. Just wondered what everyone's opinion was.
A Moral Dilema
- Thread starter reeferJ
- Start date
i think it is important to tactfuly tell your lfs how you feel. i just told mine that i thought it was wrong to carry carnation corals. he listened, did not get offended, i just hope he stops carrying them. it seems there is a select few that know what they are doing. the rest need educating...
I agree with everyone else above.
There is, however, another possibility that the LFS obtained these "hard to keep" fish or corals through no fault of their own. For example, a LFS that I frequent has told me that it is not unusual for a distributor/wholesaler to included non-ordered fish and corals that have been included as substitutes. If this is true, than the LFS faces the same dilemma. Do they refuse to except that part of the order (which may not be possible with a big order), thereby condemming the refused fish/corals to a certain death? Or to they take and try their best to sell them to knowledgeable hobbiests that at least have a chance of keeping them alive?
Another possibility is that your LFS adopted the fish from someone who bought it elsewhere, and no longer can or wants to keep it. This happens a lot with sharks.
I think that the best bet is to question the LFS and find out how they got it and why. The answere may help you with your decision.
Mike
There is, however, another possibility that the LFS obtained these "hard to keep" fish or corals through no fault of their own. For example, a LFS that I frequent has told me that it is not unusual for a distributor/wholesaler to included non-ordered fish and corals that have been included as substitutes. If this is true, than the LFS faces the same dilemma. Do they refuse to except that part of the order (which may not be possible with a big order), thereby condemming the refused fish/corals to a certain death? Or to they take and try their best to sell them to knowledgeable hobbiests that at least have a chance of keeping them alive?
Another possibility is that your LFS adopted the fish from someone who bought it elsewhere, and no longer can or wants to keep it. This happens a lot with sharks.
I think that the best bet is to question the LFS and find out how they got it and why. The answere may help you with your decision.
Mike
Unfortunately, it is standard practice by wholesalers and importers to substitute fish or coral when a item that was ordered is not available. Usually, the substituted fish or coral is an item that a store, like ours, would never carry, but we then have no choice but to carry the item, and try to sell it. I have tried on countless times to explain the problem to my suppliers, but they really do not care. Most stores cannot afford to drop suppliers as there are so few who can provide high quality livestock, even if they do substitute with "hard to keep" items. Just my two cents.
Which means that a concienscious boycott by concerned hobbyists won't work. Therefore the condemned animal will probably stand a better chance of survival in a dedicated hobbyist's tank. Very Catch 22ish. What is worse, not buying something, knowing it will die, or buying it and giving it your best shot?
If there is a fish that I want that is typically hard to take care of, my LFS orders it for me. Yes, I could order it myself, but I know my LFS won't sell me something in not good order. My LFS doesn't carry seahorses, even though they can sell 10 a day (easily).
If they are going to stock harder to handle fish, they order less. I informed them I wanted a clown sweetlips a month before they actually had one in I could buy (and I came in that day to put $$ down on it
). I like my LFS very much
. A lot of conversation goes on while looking at the fish and corals, care techniques, etc.
If they are going to stock harder to handle fish, they order less. I informed them I wanted a clown sweetlips a month before they actually had one in I could buy (and I came in that day to put $$ down on it
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by reeferJ:
<STRONG>Which means that a concienscious boycott by concerned hobbyists won't work. Therefore the condemned animal will probably stand a better chance of survival in a dedicated hobbyist's tank. Very Catch 22ish. What is worse, not buying something, knowing it will die, or buying it and giving it your best shot?</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not necessarily. It just means that it will take longer for boycotts to take effect. LFSs currently acquiesce in receiving unordered corals because someone buys them. If they became unable to sell ANY of them, then eventually they'd be calling the wholesaler and telling them that they wouldn't pay a dime for corals of a certain type. At some point, the wholesaler becomes unable to sell them and they tell the collectors they won't pay for them.
It will take longer to have an effect, but at some point no end-user $$$ means that the corals will no longer be collected.
<STRONG>Which means that a concienscious boycott by concerned hobbyists won't work. Therefore the condemned animal will probably stand a better chance of survival in a dedicated hobbyist's tank. Very Catch 22ish. What is worse, not buying something, knowing it will die, or buying it and giving it your best shot?</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not necessarily. It just means that it will take longer for boycotts to take effect. LFSs currently acquiesce in receiving unordered corals because someone buys them. If they became unable to sell ANY of them, then eventually they'd be calling the wholesaler and telling them that they wouldn't pay a dime for corals of a certain type. At some point, the wholesaler becomes unable to sell them and they tell the collectors they won't pay for them.
It will take longer to have an effect, but at some point no end-user $$$ means that the corals will no longer be collected.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by reeferJ:
<STRONG>Which means that a concienscious boycott by concerned hobbyists won't work. Therefore the condemned animal will probably stand a better chance of survival in a dedicated hobbyist's tank. Very Catch 22ish. What is worse, not buying something, knowing it will die, or buying it and giving it your best shot?</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't buy it.
Maybe, if enough LFS get sick of getting hard to keep animals as unasked for subtitutes, their suppliers will get the message to stop. If we keep buying theses animals from the LFS to "save them", this system won't ever change.
RR
<STRONG>Which means that a concienscious boycott by concerned hobbyists won't work. Therefore the condemned animal will probably stand a better chance of survival in a dedicated hobbyist's tank. Very Catch 22ish. What is worse, not buying something, knowing it will die, or buying it and giving it your best shot?</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't buy it.
Maybe, if enough LFS get sick of getting hard to keep animals as unasked for subtitutes, their suppliers will get the message to stop. If we keep buying theses animals from the LFS to "save them", this system won't ever change.
RR
I faced the same dilemma last weekend. Went into a skanky fish store. None of the saltwater tanks had lights on. There was a huge anemone, one of the biggest I've ever seen for sale, in a five gallon bare tank with no lights. It was moving really quickly around the tank (probably looking for something to eat). Most of the salt tanks were empty. There was a beautiful mandarin goby I know will die with nothing to eat. It swam right up to the front of the tank to say hi to me. I even went as far as to ask the lady how long they had had it. She said one day.
But how can I support a store that is so obviously unprepared for carrying saltwater animals? It would just be giving them more money to restock.
But how can I support a store that is so obviously unprepared for carrying saltwater animals? It would just be giving them more money to restock.
I'm not so sure boycotting will work. LFS already lose money on almost every fish they sell. Or at least ones they can't sell within a week or two. (Depending on the store) They stock fish to provide a market for dry goods, which they make a substantial markup on. Suppliers and collectors are the ones that make the money on livestock.
I'm not trying to argue with anyone, but what is a more powerful way to express yourself to a business than withholding your money? That $20 purchase one day may mean nothing, but your purchases added up over a year, ten years or your lifetime comes to quite a bit, doesn't it? The way you spend your money is one of the few things in life you have some control over. I'm not rich, but my money is as good as anyone else's. So I don't give it to a company who doesn't do business the way I prefer. And I expect a pet shop to treat its animals humanely. Whew, okay, I've vented for today.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR> Don't buy it.
Maybe, if enough LFS get sick of getting hard to keep animals as unasked for subtitutes, their suppliers will get the message to stop. If we keep buying theses animals from the LFS to "save them", this system won't ever change. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But what if really happens is that the "good" LFS that refuses to accept the order then loses business, or its suppliers. This LFS will soon be out of business. Whereas the "bad" LFS will continue to prosper.
A boycot won't work unless a majority of the hobbiests abide by it. That will, unfortunately, never happen. The vast majority of hobbiests don't care, or won't take the time to learn.
Maybe, if enough LFS get sick of getting hard to keep animals as unasked for subtitutes, their suppliers will get the message to stop. If we keep buying theses animals from the LFS to "save them", this system won't ever change. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But what if really happens is that the "good" LFS that refuses to accept the order then loses business, or its suppliers. This LFS will soon be out of business. Whereas the "bad" LFS will continue to prosper.
A boycot won't work unless a majority of the hobbiests abide by it. That will, unfortunately, never happen. The vast majority of hobbiests don't care, or won't take the time to learn.
Conscientious hobbyists are such a small minority of LFS customers that you will have no meaningful impact on LFS purchasing decisions by boycotting. The best thing you can do is to be vocal about what you think. Tell the LFS owner. Tell the newbies. Educate everyone you can. Boycotting will have no affect. And you can't rescue every doomed animal at the LFS either. That's how little old ladies wind up with 52 cats. Support serious efforts at captive breeding/propagation, even though for most fish species the results are probably a long way off.
I don't mean this to sound sarcastic. If boycotting is useless, should I feel free to buy whatever is offered? And should I not bother with cultured corals, because the LFS will have wild caught corals no matter what I do?
RR
[ July 16, 2001: Message edited by: Lefty ]
RR
[ July 16, 2001: Message edited by: Lefty ]
Every sps I have is captive grown. And I know boycotting is useless. The two things have nothing to do with each other. Being a responsible hobbyist means that YOU don't needlessly waste wild animals. Boycotting an LFS means that you think you can keep OTHERS from needlessly wasting animals. The former is a duty, the latter is a fantasy. If this hobby teaches us anything it is to be realistic. You might really really want that t.max to do well under your no lights but it aint gonna happen now is it?
[ July 16, 2001: Message edited by: 2poor2reef ]
[ July 16, 2001: Message edited by: 2poor2reef ]
I think you have to be more agressive.
We are constantly hanging around their stores so they know us. They also know that in most cases we know more than they do.
I believe we have a responsibility to let the LFS clearly know our displeasure when we see difficult species filling their tanks.
It is simply not good enough to turn the other cheek.
Give they hell!!!
We are constantly hanging around their stores so they know us. They also know that in most cases we know more than they do.
I believe we have a responsibility to let the LFS clearly know our displeasure when we see difficult species filling their tanks.
It is simply not good enough to turn the other cheek.
Give they hell!!!
To me there is no question that we should not purchase these animals, but will it really matter? Even on the reef boards when the subject of difficult to keep animals comes up there is always a % who say they have kept them and had no problems. I am afraid the only way is to protect them by banning their importation to pet stores. The only people who should have them are those that have the qualifications to do research.
Steve
Steve
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