Generation gap in experience

[Terry B]

I have observed that there are a number of things about newer aquarists that irritate some of the “old salts”. I would site examples like explaining the reason for quarantine, why read several books, researching animals before they are purchased etc. I understand that there are also things that the "old salts" do that irritate auqarists with less experience. Examples: get upset when animals die, sometimes do not answer threads when they know the answer, appear to be impatient with aquarists that have less experience than they do, etc.
I am not trying to start a flame war here. I would just like to look into the things that appear to cause a "generation gap" in our hobby. This generation gap is not a matter of age, it is a matter of experience. Perhaps then we can better understand each other because we come from different perspectives. Would you list those aspects of the hobby that you see as a difficulty between the "highly experienced" and those with fewer years in the hobby? Then if you have any suggestions as to how this "gap" can be bridged please comment on that.
Terry B

 

[esmithiii]

Here are my thoughts. I consider myself a fairly inexperienced reefer, and feel I fit in the newer category.

Here are some of the things that seem to get my motor running. Whether these are traits of the "old guard" or not you can be the judge:

1. The tendency to be reticent on questions that may seem too novice.
2. A tone of superiority when answering questions.
3. An assumption that experience always outweighs science.
4. Anyone who talks about "humane" treatment of the organisms in our care. If I hear how cruel it is to put a tang in a tank that isn't big enough I think I will puke. Not to mention the posts about the most humane way to put down a fish.
5. Instant skepticism of new-fangled techniques or equipment.
6. Any reference to the fact that someone has been reefing longer than I have been alive.

I am sure that I myself have been guilty of most the things on my list (#4 excepted) so I am not bashing.

How to bridge the gaps?

1. Patience.
2. Patience.
3. patience.
4. Getting together face-to-face every now and then!


Ernie

 

[Anemone]

Terry,

I see it more as an "attitude" gap rather than an "experience" gap. Many brand new aqauarists get good answers to just those type of questions (the ones you cited). The posts generally go downhill, IMO, when the new poster either completely ignores the advice given and goes ahead and does what they wanted to anyways (and quite often comes back and tells everyone they did), or argues until they can find one person willing to tell them they can do what they obviously wanted to do from the beginning. Until that time, people on this board (and others) generally give good, thoughtful advice. After that time, let the flames begin.

A typical scenario (boiled down):

Newbie - I saw an anenome in my fish store that's really cool looking, I really want it to go with my clown fish. What do I need to know? My tank has been set up one week BTW.

Oldie(s) - Your tank is waaay too new for an anemone. Wait 'til you have it up and running for at least six months to let everything settle down. Anemones are difficult - many corals are a lot easier. Lighting is very important, what size tank do you have, and what type (and wattage) of lighting? Also, what else is in the tank, or what else do you want to keep?

Newbie - (generally within a week) Hey, I got this anemone with pink tips. It looked really good at the fish store, but now it's all sucked in. What do I need to do?

Oldie(s) - We told you to wait! Slow down! If you want to eventually keep anemones, you need to wait until your tank is more settled, plus tell us about your tank, so we can give knowledgeable advice....

Newbie - That anemone turned to mush. The fish store said it was probably just not healthy, so I got another one to replace it......

Oldie(s) - Well, thank you for playing. You've just condemned another aquatic inhabitant to death.

You can substitute almost any question and answer series, but that's the general scenario. It comes down to respect - a new aquarist got into this hobby because they want to have a pretty tank now, not six months from now (we've all been there). The experienced aquarist puts time and thought into their advice, then gets annoyed when the new aquarist disregards it when they just can't wait....

Kevin

[ January 06, 2002: Message edited by: Anemone ]</p>

 

[naesco]

Well said Anenome. I agree with you it is an attitude gap.
When the attitude surfaces, I don't bother anymore unless the post is about tangs in which can I always will; attitude or not.

 

[esmithiii]

Here is another twist on on the attitude, possibly from another perspective:

Newbie: Can anyone here help me save my poor anemone? It is shriveled up, and doesn't look too good.

Oldie: What are your tank parameters? What kind of lighting do you have? How old is the tank?

Newbie: It is a 20 gallon tank, with a strip light. It has been running for a month.

Oldie: What?!? You idiot! Thousands of anemones are taken from their natural habitats every month! You are killing the reef with your stupidity! Why did you think that you would ever be capable of keeping an anemone with that setup? I can't believe that your LFS would sell you the anemone with your setup.

Newbie: What is an LFS? The guy at the fish store told me that anemones are easy to keep. He sold me this stuff called combisan that would make its coat shiny and soft.

Oldie: You should sell your aquarium and get a pet rock. Imagine how the poor anemone feels! You should have read the following books cover to cover before pillaging the world's reefs: (Insert list of 5 books, each over 200 pages long)

Newbie: My anemone looks better today, but I think it is stinging my moorish idol.

Obviously this is a dramatization, but you get the point. When I started this hobby 3 short years ago I had no idea how complex it would be. I am the kind of guy that researches everything, but research to me (before being "educated") meant finding the best deal and getting the fastest, highest performance thing-a-ma-bob for my money. I think we expect too much from the newbie, and we sometimes give them a "baptism by fire" into the hobby. Read any post by Kirtis and you will see what I mean.

We should be encouraging people to stay on the board and learn. Sometimes peoples' first post gets such a whipping that it is their last, and then the go to the LFS for advice, which even the good ones sometimes give crappy advice.

E

 

[Anemone]

Ernie,

I agree, and I disagree. I don't see it generally being the first post that gets the flaming - it's usually farther down. Yes, occasionally a first post will get a "whipping" - welcome to the internet, where everyone can hide behind screen names and be as rude as they want (I know this never applies to you or I, but others can be rude

). It you want to come out and play, you have to have thick skin (not, in any way, excusing this type of behavior, just commenting on the nature of the beast).

As far as the poster you mentioned, if you look at his posts in chronological order, you'll see he fits my scenario almost perfectly, with a little name calling (on both sides) thrown in.

Kevin

[ January 06, 2002: Message edited by: Anemone ]</p>

 

[esmithiii]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

Yes, occasionally a first post will get a "whipping" - welcome to the internet, where everyone can hide behind screen names and be as rude as they want (I know this never applies to you or I, but others can be rude ).

I don't know what you are talking about, you big jerk!

Sometimes it seems that the harsh retorts are deserved, I agree. I also agree that regulars here come and post at their own risk. Sometimes we have to remind ourselves that Newbies have been conditioned in many cases by their LFSs, and that they probably have come across a lot of misinformation. I often forget the adage "you catch more bees with honey than you do with vinager." When is harshness productive in this forum? Only when the recipient is too addicted to posting here that he/she (I won't name names, but my wife will

) will take harshness the right way and won't be scared off. Oh, the other time harshness is productive is against all those tree-hugging left-wing environmentalists!

E

 

[naesco]

LMFHO

 

[Terry B]

Righty,
Thanks for the constructive thought. I started this thread to stimulate converstion and awareness on this subject. I am hoping to see more ideas on how to resolve problems such as a lack of respect for all life. Part of the problem, as I see it, is a general consumer mentality. Reef creatures should not be considered just to be possesions. It seems that those that respect and appreciate these delicate creatures make the best aquarists. Books such as Robert Fenner's "Conscientious Aquarsit" go a long way toward promoting this.
Terry B

 

[Anonymous]

Righhty has the "right", no pun intended, idea. You can tell people to do search, read this or that, but in today instant gratification socitey, they probably want that quick fix. Pointing them to a specific thread or forum will go much further than saying that question has been answered a thousand times, do a search and find your answer. It seems to me that there are numerous topic boards, a FAQ/Newbie board would seem like a no brainer.

I guesss my opinion would be to the "old salts", be a little more patient of the questions you have heard a thousand times, after all, don't we want to encourage these people to be responsible and educated marine keepers.

And to those new in the hobby, please do some reasearch before hand, it can be the most valuable tool in the hobby.

BTW, is Terry B my Survivor companion?

 

[kristofer1]

hey, as a newbie to reefs, i know im on this board a few times aday reading all i can. I know i try to give the right amount of info when i ask my question. But not all of us would think of this first. The other thing i have learnt is how most LFS really don't know there facts, and rub there bad ways off on us. Thats why i turn to you old salts for advice, which i feel i get an abundent of. <thanks you guys BTW> But pls rember every newbie will need to be re-educated, told about the search engine, and reminded to go slow. So i think it would be great to have a thread where you all put in information you feel we should know first.

 

[Anonymous]

What about an automatic email to new members that gives the "jumpstart" info?

RR

 

[jwtrojan44]

The drawback to a thread or forum for newbie questions is that who monitors what advice is given out and who deems that advice as good? We all know that are many ways to do things, and while some of us go about things according to the popular vote, others might have equal or greater success having gone against the conventional wisdom. Righty's idea of a jumpstart email holds water (pun intended) but who would author this and would it be subject to some review by other experienced hobbiests to make sure it was "good" info. I responded to this same post on another board, and I pointed out that "experience" with regards to this hobby has as much to do with success as with the time spent in it. I think we could run into trouble there. A FAQ forum would be good, but then the search feature offers new folks to view a topic from many different perspectives as well, allowing them to say "hey, 9 out of 10 dentists recommend..." Like any other board, any forum is subject to bad advice by those who are new, misinformed, or who just want to rack up a post count. Are there those willing to be on a "panel of ["experts"] who could moderate or be responsible for offering pertinent info. to new hobbiests? It's a tall order but one that might have merit. My take. JWT

 

[amber]

good subject. I'm new to this board-used Aqualink before. I've always gotten good help but then I'm the kind to read dozens of books and weighs out what I read on boards.
Is there a site on reefs.org somewhere that gives some basics? I know another board has one. That helped me quite a bit.
The main thing I'd like to point out is that to some people (me) the computer can be very compilcated, at least at first. You may have to point a newbie in the right direction and give them a link..
The Golden Rule is good to remember too--treat them as you would like to be treated. I know from time to time I have answered questions even tho they were "boring" to me. amber

 

[XXX]

I think the biggest mess is caused by most of the newbies getting tangled in the LFS net before they find one of these boards. Some will take advice and try to right things and others will resist even after seeking new advice. It is not usually difficult to tell where a newbie got his/her start-up advice. Twelve fish and sixty three corals in a three month old 55 with 68 watts of lighting is a pretty good hint. Along with many deaths along the way. If a person wants to get the correct info on-line it is here to find. If they choose to ignore it then they are most likely destined for a short lived experience in reefing. Too bad so many have no idea of the wealth of knowledge that is here to be had. It's a shame that the information that is available can not be put in front of all newbies before they buy their first tank.

No matter how long you have done this or how much you know, someone knows more. You give advice, you get advice. Patience. Easier said than done.

 

[SPC]

Terry, IMO experience in this hobby, as in life, is very important. To gain that experience one has to have a certain mind set which allows them to stay interested over the long term, these are the true hobbiest. What I have noticed, is that the vast majority of this group care more about their animals, the environement which they come from, and attempt to duplicate as close as possible that environement in their aquariums. This group does not keep an aquarium to impress others, they have a genuine interest in the animals themselves. I think it is important to distinguish the different motivations and belief systems for aquarium keeping before your question can be answered.
I like your idea Righty, but as others have stated, how do we come up with answers we all agree with (ie, me and Ernie and tangs, oh my

).
Steve

 

[Chucker]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SKBok:
<strong>I guesss my opinion would be to the "old salts", be a little more patient of the questions you have heard a thousand times, after all, don't we want to encourage these people to be responsible and educated marine keepers.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Just a FWIW.... From the view of someone who has been here quite a while, it is very easy to get burnt out after answering the same question 30 or 40 times, especially when the person requesting the information ignores the advice given. Not saying that it's justified, just that it happens.....

 

[Anonymous]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Chucker:
<strong>

especially when the person requesting the information ignores the advice given.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I guess I was going on the silly assumption that if someone was asking for advice, that would actually head some of it.

 

[ReefMon]

Chucker hit the nail right on the head!

90% of the questions asked have been answered usually within the past week or so. If a new hobbyist doesn't have the patience to do some research why should we try our patience in answering the same questions over and over?

OTOH, I suspect the majority of the users of this and other boards do take the time to research before asking common questions.

Glenn R.

 

[Chucker]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SKBok:
<strong>I guess I was going on the silly assumption that if someone was asking for advice, that would actually head some of it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sometimes that is a big assumption, as Anemone posted earlier.

I've seen it in the chat channel before too. John Doe pops in, and asks for advice on critter X. John Doe is informed by 5 others in the chat channel that critter X is not appropriate for the system they have described. This situation usually has one of three endings-

A) John Doe is miffed, and becomes argumentative and leaves.

B) John Doe continues asking the question until another individual chimes in that they have critter X, and it is doing fine. John Doe thanks the individual for their inputs, and leaves after hearing the desired answer.

C) John Doe takes the advice given, and attempts to provide a proper home for critter X, or returns it to the establishment they got it from.

Choice C is the desired Scooby Doo ending, but doesn't always happen.

What it all boils down to is that both the newbie and the old hand have a responsibilty here. The newbie's job is to try and gather as much information as possible before spending a penny. The newbie should seek second opinions, and apply constructive criticism to current and future planning. The old hand must be ready to provide experience and information in a friendly, helpful manner when called upon, and refer the newbie to resources that can help ease the learning curve. IMHO, the hardest part of the old hand's job is to "fight the good fight", and not give up. It sounds altruistic to say, but if just one critter is saved by sound advice, then it's all worth it.