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Terry B
I can't access the articles. What am I doing wrong?
I can't access the articles. What am I doing wrong?
Does everyone quarantine everything?
- Thread starter kcinminni
- Start date
I do agree that hyposalinity help alot in treating ich. I found that I normally need 2 months to cure a fish in a quarintine tank using copper. But I don't have much clue in using hyposalinity. Sometimes my fishes are kill by the hyposalinity. I need to know how low can the salinity be and in what rate that I should lower it? You guys must help me out here. And is there anyfish that is sensative to salinity? :lol:
I don't agree with hyposalinity except in desperate situations. Its extremely stressful on reef fishes. Many fish can adapt from fresh to saltwater and back again, reef fishes cannot. Their physiology does not allow for alterations capable of maintaining internal osmolarity during 'dipping'.
If you must try, you must match pH between the tank and saltwater (~8.3) and make certain you maintain a steady temperature. In most cases, the stress from hyposalinity (meaning 0-10 S) is enough to fully repress the fish's immune system and cause it to be prone to other infections.
Wade
If you must try, you must match pH between the tank and saltwater (~8.3) and make certain you maintain a steady temperature. In most cases, the stress from hyposalinity (meaning 0-10 S) is enough to fully repress the fish's immune system and cause it to be prone to other infections.
Wade
CWA46,
Sorry the link doesn’t seem to be working for me either. The articles were recently moved. The only place I can get to them right now is in a private forum where you have to be given “shark” status before you can get in. I am trying to get the administrator to straighten this out so please be patient because I have to count on them. When I have a chance I will go through a large stack of files looking for the articles so I can post them myself. In the meanwhile I hope I get the help I need quickly so anyone can access the articles.
Terry B
Sorry the link doesn’t seem to be working for me either. The articles were recently moved. The only place I can get to them right now is in a private forum where you have to be given “shark” status before you can get in. I am trying to get the administrator to straighten this out so please be patient because I have to count on them. When I have a chance I will go through a large stack of files looking for the articles so I can post them myself. In the meanwhile I hope I get the help I need quickly so anyone can access the articles.
Terry B
Based on the fish physiology classes I have taken, it is very stressful. Moreso dependant on the species of fish. The only time I would consider its use is with external parasites on a apparently healthy fish and that only for 15 minute dips. I would in no way leave a reef fish in hyposaline conditions for long.
Wade,
If you have read the link I posted to the nine part series I wrote on stress in fish including numerous references to the scientific journals then I you would probably agree with me when I say that I know more than a little about stress in fish. I am also one of the strongest advocates of hyposalinity therapy. I think where are differences come into play is in our definitions of what hyposalinity is. When I speak of hyposalinity I am not referring to a dip. I am talking about maintaining bony reef fish in a salinity of 14 to 16ppt for a period of three weeks or longer.
I totally agree with your assessment that a salinity in the range of 0 to 10ppt is highly stressful to reef fish. I rarely recommend the use of a freshwater dip. Reef fish have an internal salinity of 11 to 12ppt. When they are placed in water that is lower in salinity than their internal fluids then the fish are forced to attempt osmoregulation in a manner that is the reverse of what is natural for them. However, provided the salinity of the surrounding ambient water remains higher than the internal fluids of the fish I see little evidence that that environment is highly stressful to them. To the contrary, reducing the gradient between the internal fluids of the fish and the water they are maintained in is an established means of alleviating the stress of capture, transport and handling. This is commonly practiced among fisheries. It is difficult to comprehend how a reduced salinity could be highly stressful while at the same time used as means of alleviating the effects of stress.
Terry B
If you have read the link I posted to the nine part series I wrote on stress in fish including numerous references to the scientific journals then I you would probably agree with me when I say that I know more than a little about stress in fish. I am also one of the strongest advocates of hyposalinity therapy. I think where are differences come into play is in our definitions of what hyposalinity is. When I speak of hyposalinity I am not referring to a dip. I am talking about maintaining bony reef fish in a salinity of 14 to 16ppt for a period of three weeks or longer.
I totally agree with your assessment that a salinity in the range of 0 to 10ppt is highly stressful to reef fish. I rarely recommend the use of a freshwater dip. Reef fish have an internal salinity of 11 to 12ppt. When they are placed in water that is lower in salinity than their internal fluids then the fish are forced to attempt osmoregulation in a manner that is the reverse of what is natural for them. However, provided the salinity of the surrounding ambient water remains higher than the internal fluids of the fish I see little evidence that that environment is highly stressful to them. To the contrary, reducing the gradient between the internal fluids of the fish and the water they are maintained in is an established means of alleviating the stress of capture, transport and handling. This is commonly practiced among fisheries. It is difficult to comprehend how a reduced salinity could be highly stressful while at the same time used as means of alleviating the effects of stress.
Terry B
Terry B
What are your qulaifications besides the articles I just read. There isn't one instance of substantion or reference in everything that I read. I am not saying that any of it is inaccurate, but I have no way to determine if it is.
By the way, being a former resident of Gig Harbor, who do you work for and what is your job.
What are your qulaifications besides the articles I just read. There isn't one instance of substantion or reference in everything that I read. I am not saying that any of it is inaccurate, but I have no way to determine if it is.
By the way, being a former resident of Gig Harbor, who do you work for and what is your job.
For what it's worth, I have been quaranteening all my fish using hyposalinity for the past two years. Having spent thousands of dollars setting up my three saltwater tanks, I am not ever going to put a fish in my tank without doing this. I have used a regimen of 14-15ppt salinity for 4 weeks without any adverse effect. The measurement needs to be accurate and a refractomer IMO is necessary. Water evaporation needs to be watched carefully. I have done this for all fish I currently have: tangs, angels, pygmy angels. gobies, chromis, clowns, butterfly fish, wrasses, anthias, foxface, triggers.
I can't speak to Terry B's qualifications but I personally don't doubt his knowledge when it comes to the treatment of diseases in marine fish. JMHO
I can't speak to Terry B's qualifications but I personally don't doubt his knowledge when it comes to the treatment of diseases in marine fish. JMHO
TerryB,
I was going to email you, but for some reason, my email is refusing to send stuff out without bouncing.
Back to the original point. Thanks for posting a link to your article. I think it has some good practical knowledge, and extensive background information. Unfortunately, I see nothing in the nine pages that prove the point above. The big hole that I see is that there is no data to support your idea. Those holes would need to be filled for me to accept the notion that quarantine is less stressful than direct acclimation.
1. You would need to quantitatively define stress in a particular fish. Could you establish a threshold level of corticosteriods, catecholamines, endorphines, or any other significant chemical and show that values above a certain level are above the normal level? The following points are assuming there is a reason to believe that these chemical levels are indicative of stress.
2. Once those threshold values are set (hopefully not arbitrarily), it would be nice if data could be taken from a significantly large sample of fish(1000?), half of which are quarantined and half are not.
3. Once that data is collected, a statistical hypothesis test at a reasonable alpha level (.10-.05 let's say) could be used to show whether or not the fish are more or less stressed.
Again, I am not ripping into you for the article you wrote. I liked it, and I thought the information was useful. I disagree however in the ability to make conclusions based on your writing because there is no data to support any conclusions.
I was going to email you, but for some reason, my email is refusing to send stuff out without bouncing.
Back to the original point. Thanks for posting a link to your article. I think it has some good practical knowledge, and extensive background information. Unfortunately, I see nothing in the nine pages that prove the point above. The big hole that I see is that there is no data to support your idea. Those holes would need to be filled for me to accept the notion that quarantine is less stressful than direct acclimation.
1. You would need to quantitatively define stress in a particular fish. Could you establish a threshold level of corticosteriods, catecholamines, endorphines, or any other significant chemical and show that values above a certain level are above the normal level? The following points are assuming there is a reason to believe that these chemical levels are indicative of stress.
2. Once those threshold values are set (hopefully not arbitrarily), it would be nice if data could be taken from a significantly large sample of fish(1000?), half of which are quarantined and half are not.
3. Once that data is collected, a statistical hypothesis test at a reasonable alpha level (.10-.05 let's say) could be used to show whether or not the fish are more or less stressed.
Again, I am not ripping into you for the article you wrote. I liked it, and I thought the information was useful. I disagree however in the ability to make conclusions based on your writing because there is no data to support any conclusions.
Dendro,
I think Terrys point may be that by skipping quarantine you greatly increase the chances of introducing disease into the reef tank.
Certainly we can all agree that a sick fish covered in parasites is more stressed than the same fish in a q-tank with hyposalinity to control the parasites.
John
I think Terrys point may be that by skipping quarantine you greatly increase the chances of introducing disease into the reef tank.
Certainly we can all agree that a sick fish covered in parasites is more stressed than the same fish in a q-tank with hyposalinity to control the parasites.
John
Dendronepthya,
Thanks for the complements are about the series of articles. Your criticism is well taken. I assure you that there is sufficient scientific evidence to support what I wrote in the series. I will work on getting you guys some of those references.
You are asking for something that the scientific community is unable to provide. Cortisone levels are going to vary with each individual specimen, species, age, size of fish, condition, etc. What has been clinically proven is that cortisone levels do increase with the stress response and blood cortisone levels is the established means of measuring stress in fish. I did not personally establish this as fact but it is widely accepted in the scientific community. I am sure that you would be able to find enough scientific journals to support this. There is a lot of data and research on stress in fish performed by the renowned Dr. Wedemeyer and others which I can recommend. As far as my conclusions go I think I can make a very good argument on a stressor by stressor basis. Now I would like to know what evidence would support the contention that it is less stressful for fish to be placed into the display without quarantining them? BTW, did you read all nine articles yet? Aside from all of this IMO skipping quarantine is irresponsible and risks the lives of the established inhabitants. I guess that is why every public aquarium and every author of a book on marine aquariums recommends quarantine. I think there 100% agreement is pretty compelling.
Terry B
Thanks for the complements are about the series of articles. Your criticism is well taken. I assure you that there is sufficient scientific evidence to support what I wrote in the series. I will work on getting you guys some of those references.
You are asking for something that the scientific community is unable to provide. Cortisone levels are going to vary with each individual specimen, species, age, size of fish, condition, etc. What has been clinically proven is that cortisone levels do increase with the stress response and blood cortisone levels is the established means of measuring stress in fish. I did not personally establish this as fact but it is widely accepted in the scientific community. I am sure that you would be able to find enough scientific journals to support this. There is a lot of data and research on stress in fish performed by the renowned Dr. Wedemeyer and others which I can recommend. As far as my conclusions go I think I can make a very good argument on a stressor by stressor basis. Now I would like to know what evidence would support the contention that it is less stressful for fish to be placed into the display without quarantining them? BTW, did you read all nine articles yet? Aside from all of this IMO skipping quarantine is irresponsible and risks the lives of the established inhabitants. I guess that is why every public aquarium and every author of a book on marine aquariums recommends quarantine. I think there 100% agreement is pretty compelling.
Terry B
TerryB,
Yes, I read through all nine articles. Twice even to make sure I didn't miss what I was looking for which was a quantifiable identifier of stress in fish. I figured it was going to be nearly impossible to nail down, even if you were talking about a single species.
Yes, I read through all nine articles. Twice even to make sure I didn't miss what I was looking for which was a quantifiable identifier of stress in fish. I figured it was going to be nearly impossible to nail down, even if you were talking about a single species.
Not sure I ever said that, I was more curious of how you could provide a comprehensive argument one way or another after your statement. On the topic of quarantine, I am passive at best. I personally do not quarantine, but then again, I go long stretches without fish in my tanks, and when I do add fish, sometimes it is the only one in the tank (so why quarantine it). If the quarantine tank is large enough, I see no reason to use it. The benefits/disadvantages of quarantining was never really my point of contention. I was interested because I am passionately opposed to overstocking, and want a way to quantitatively show the damage caused by overstocking.
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