Where does the idea that ich is present in all aquariums com
- Thread starter Terry B
- Start date
Hi Terry,
I believe you have posted this exact same question before. Perhaps you forgot?
We may still have the thread from last time in our archives. I would do a search on the words "Ich" and perhaps "Hyposalinity" to try to turn it up.
Cheers and good luck,
James Wiseman
I believe you have posted this exact same question before. Perhaps you forgot?
We may still have the thread from last time in our archives. I would do a search on the words "Ich" and perhaps "Hyposalinity" to try to turn it up.
Cheers and good luck,
James Wiseman
It's my understanding that a healthy fish has built up a slime coat thick enough to sufficiently ward off the attacking parasite, whereas a stressed fish's slime coat thins(?) to a point that the parasite can infect said fish. Sorry no references, so this is entirely my opinion/experience. And (of course) I may be wrong.
I believe this to be true and base it on experience.
1) Take a healthy tank that has had nothing new added to it in years.
2) Stress the system by simulating a power outage in winter: Let the temperature swing down into the high 60's and then back up to 80 in a single day.
3) Wait another day or so for the cryptocaryon to appear.
I think it exists continuously at a very low level, so we don't notice the occasional very small white speck. It attacks the fish, the fish's immune system battles it, it drops off and continues it's life cycle. When the system is stressed, it overwhelms the fish and breeds in great numbers so the spots become obvious.
[ September 18, 2001: Message edited by: MattM ]
1) Take a healthy tank that has had nothing new added to it in years.
2) Stress the system by simulating a power outage in winter: Let the temperature swing down into the high 60's and then back up to 80 in a single day.
3) Wait another day or so for the cryptocaryon to appear.
I think it exists continuously at a very low level, so we don't notice the occasional very small white speck. It attacks the fish, the fish's immune system battles it, it drops off and continues it's life cycle. When the system is stressed, it overwhelms the fish and breeds in great numbers so the spots become obvious.
[ September 18, 2001: Message edited by: MattM ]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MattM:
<STRONG>I believe this to be true and base it on experience.
1) Take a healthy tank that has had nothing new added to it in years.
2) Stress the system by simulating a power outage in winter: Let the temperature swing down into the high 60's and then back up to 80 in a single day.
3) Wait another day or so for the cryptocaryon to appear.
I think it exists continuously at a very low level, so we don't notice the occasional very small white speck. It attacks the fish, the fish's immune system battles it, it drops off and continues it's life cycle. When the system is stressed, it overwhelms the fish and breeds in great numbers so the spots become obvious.
[ September 18, 2001: Message edited by: MattM ]</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Having a constant low level infection and not having ich in the tank are not the same thing. You can eliminate it and keep it out. Then you can do 1 and 2 but not get 3. Of course after 1 and 2 I wouldn't rule out a bacterial or viral infection.
<STRONG>I believe this to be true and base it on experience.
1) Take a healthy tank that has had nothing new added to it in years.
2) Stress the system by simulating a power outage in winter: Let the temperature swing down into the high 60's and then back up to 80 in a single day.
3) Wait another day or so for the cryptocaryon to appear.
I think it exists continuously at a very low level, so we don't notice the occasional very small white speck. It attacks the fish, the fish's immune system battles it, it drops off and continues it's life cycle. When the system is stressed, it overwhelms the fish and breeds in great numbers so the spots become obvious.
[ September 18, 2001: Message edited by: MattM ]</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Having a constant low level infection and not having ich in the tank are not the same thing. You can eliminate it and keep it out. Then you can do 1 and 2 but not get 3. Of course after 1 and 2 I wouldn't rule out a bacterial or viral infection.
Yep, i believe that cryptocaryon is in every aquarium! I have no idea what it does in between it's mass infestations but it's there, somewhere (hey, conservation of matter, it can't come from no where!) waiting for your heater to fail or for you to forget to put the AC on. I totally agree w/ MattM, and i've heard of people that haven't added fish to their aquariums for years (not sure how they can stand it though) and were stumped when their aquarium came down with a case of ich. Don't get crazy about this, theres all kinds of horrible diseases crawling on you that you won't get because your immune system fights them off. Hey, after keeping my hands in tanks all day i'm sure i'm walking around with some cryptocaryon... better take a freshwater dip before i go to bed tonight...
Hi Gang,
Well, since I didn't say it in the last post:
I think we can pretty much agree that ich is present at all wholesalers (sorry Mary...
), and since that's where most LFS get their fish...
Most fish brought home from the LFS carry ich. Ok, so following that logic, let's do a quick thought experiment..."How many hobbiests quarentine (sp?) their fish in an environment that kills ich for at lest 6 weeks?"
Chirp, chirp....what is that I hear? I think it's crickets chirping...
OK, so we have established that most people add fish from the LFS directly to their reeftank...heck, I know I do. So the line of logic goes:
Ich is present at the wholesaler => Ich is present at the LFS => Ich is present in my tank.
It's not a huge leap of logic.
Cheers
James Wiseman
Well, since I didn't say it in the last post:
I think we can pretty much agree that ich is present at all wholesalers (sorry Mary...
Most fish brought home from the LFS carry ich. Ok, so following that logic, let's do a quick thought experiment..."How many hobbiests quarentine (sp?) their fish in an environment that kills ich for at lest 6 weeks?"
Chirp, chirp....what is that I hear? I think it's crickets chirping...
OK, so we have established that most people add fish from the LFS directly to their reeftank...heck, I know I do. So the line of logic goes:
Ich is present at the wholesaler => Ich is present at the LFS => Ich is present in my tank.
It's not a huge leap of logic.
Cheers
James Wiseman
I don't agree that ich is present in all aquariums. I don't have a reef/saltwater tank now, but I did for 3.5 years. After a few newbie mistakes, my subsequent tanks never had an outbreak of ich, and I had some of the more horrendous incidents known to man. I had heaters fail, pumps quit, hell....even a 125 AGA tank that spewed it's guts on my living room floor. For three days some of my fish lived in garbage cans.
So I would tend to agree with Terry B on this one. And I think it is definitely a legitimate topic for discussion.
So I would tend to agree with Terry B on this one. And I think it is definitely a legitimate topic for discussion.
- Location
- Virginia
I'm basing my opinion on ich always being present on the fact that that's what I've always been told. Obviously, if you don't have fish, you won't see an outbreak of ich, but if you have fish, my guess is you will have it. Don't know if I'm right or wrong, but I would guess (based on my own knowledge) that it is always there, no matter what you do, unless you run copper in your system 24/7, in which case, you don't have a reef, you just have fish.
MiNdErAsR,
Fish that have not been overly stressed do in fact produce more mucus. However, ich can infect fish that have not been stressed. Stress in an of itself is not the cause of ich, but it does make fish more susceptible to it. As others have pointed out fish can be severely stressed and still not come down with ich because the parasite is not present in their aquarium.
Terry B
Fish that have not been overly stressed do in fact produce more mucus. However, ich can infect fish that have not been stressed. Stress in an of itself is not the cause of ich, but it does make fish more susceptible to it. As others have pointed out fish can be severely stressed and still not come down with ich because the parasite is not present in their aquarium.
Terry B
Hi Matt,
To start with fish are not the only means of transmission for this parasite. It can be imported on equipment, with water, rocks, sand, food, inverts, or any hard surface. Can you say this tank hasn’t had any of these things in years? Also fish that do not show any spots can still harbor ich. It is also possible to have a low-level infection for a period of time. This still doesn’t mean that ich is in all or even most aquariums. How do you explain it when a tank in severely stressed and the fish do not get ich? I have seen many fish that were extremely stressed that did not get ich.
Terry B
To start with fish are not the only means of transmission for this parasite. It can be imported on equipment, with water, rocks, sand, food, inverts, or any hard surface. Can you say this tank hasn’t had any of these things in years? Also fish that do not show any spots can still harbor ich. It is also possible to have a low-level infection for a period of time. This still doesn’t mean that ich is in all or even most aquariums. How do you explain it when a tank in severely stressed and the fish do not get ich? I have seen many fish that were extremely stressed that did not get ich.
Terry B
James,
I wouldn’t say ich is in all wholesale’s tanks. Some of them do routinely treat their tanks. I will grant you that it’s much more difficult to keep a wholesalers tanks clean than private aquariums. I wouldn’t say most fish brought home from a LFS have it. Maybe this is true where you shop, but not at the better stores around here. How many people quarantine? The smart ones, but they are in the minority if you consider that a lot of people don’t read books or magazines on the hobby or follow a good message board like this one. I can follow your logic to the point that I agree that a large percentage of people have problems with ich, but that is a far cry from saying ich is in all marine aquariums, or even most of them.
Terry
I wouldn’t say ich is in all wholesale’s tanks. Some of them do routinely treat their tanks. I will grant you that it’s much more difficult to keep a wholesalers tanks clean than private aquariums. I wouldn’t say most fish brought home from a LFS have it. Maybe this is true where you shop, but not at the better stores around here. How many people quarantine? The smart ones, but they are in the minority if you consider that a lot of people don’t read books or magazines on the hobby or follow a good message board like this one. I can follow your logic to the point that I agree that a large percentage of people have problems with ich, but that is a far cry from saying ich is in all marine aquariums, or even most of them.
Terry
- Location
- Virginia
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
I would have to disagree with that. Some people do quarantine their fish, and it can be an effective deterrent against unwanted sickness in your tank (although it can also be the cause of your fish having an outbreak to begin with in my opinion), but if you have a healthy tank, you can also often avoid the problems associated with sick fish. There are many fish out there that you will never cure of all their ailments, and if you have a good tank with good water quality and you feed your fish a healthy diet, it will never exhibit any ill effects of their sickness. Quarantining does not necessarily mean that you will have a healthier fish when all is said and done. A quarantine tank is not going to be comparable to what you can offer the fish in your main tank, and as such, you risk stressing your fish out by putting it into quarantine to begin with. If your fish is stressed out in quarantine, even if it is eating and appears to be healthy, then it will become even more stressed when it is added to your main tank where there are other fish present and the environment and water is different from your quarantine tank. I don't quarantine fish, and at most, I do a freshwater dip before introducing them into my reef, if that. I don't have the desire to buy a fish and then sit on it for 4 or 5 weeks while I watch for signs of infection. Also, I wouldn't want to run chemicals and medications in a tank on a constant basis to use as a quarantine tank.
By the way, I'm not offended by your statement, I just think that there's another side to quarantine tanks that all the literature does not address, and I don't know that it's the greatest system to use. In all of the LFS stores that I have seen where they quarantine new arrivals, it has always been in overcrowded tanks in the back with no rock in it and no substrate, or in tiny cubicles in a large display system, almost like a betta system, only larger. I can't imagine any scenario in which that helps the fish to become healthier. Just my opinion, and why I don't quarantine.
[ September 19, 2001: Message edited by: davelin315 ]
I would have to disagree with that. Some people do quarantine their fish, and it can be an effective deterrent against unwanted sickness in your tank (although it can also be the cause of your fish having an outbreak to begin with in my opinion), but if you have a healthy tank, you can also often avoid the problems associated with sick fish. There are many fish out there that you will never cure of all their ailments, and if you have a good tank with good water quality and you feed your fish a healthy diet, it will never exhibit any ill effects of their sickness. Quarantining does not necessarily mean that you will have a healthier fish when all is said and done. A quarantine tank is not going to be comparable to what you can offer the fish in your main tank, and as such, you risk stressing your fish out by putting it into quarantine to begin with. If your fish is stressed out in quarantine, even if it is eating and appears to be healthy, then it will become even more stressed when it is added to your main tank where there are other fish present and the environment and water is different from your quarantine tank. I don't quarantine fish, and at most, I do a freshwater dip before introducing them into my reef, if that. I don't have the desire to buy a fish and then sit on it for 4 or 5 weeks while I watch for signs of infection. Also, I wouldn't want to run chemicals and medications in a tank on a constant basis to use as a quarantine tank.
By the way, I'm not offended by your statement, I just think that there's another side to quarantine tanks that all the literature does not address, and I don't know that it's the greatest system to use. In all of the LFS stores that I have seen where they quarantine new arrivals, it has always been in overcrowded tanks in the back with no rock in it and no substrate, or in tiny cubicles in a large display system, almost like a betta system, only larger. I can't imagine any scenario in which that helps the fish to become healthier. Just my opinion, and why I don't quarantine.
[ September 19, 2001: Message edited by: davelin315 ]
Hello,
Tsc, tsc. If you don't introduce the parasite in your system you'll not have to deal with it! Quarantine all organisms is the solution. It is impossible for the parasite to survive for a certain period of time if there is no fish to feed on (this time will depend on parasite and system). No, not every tank has the parasite, but almost all stores have them. This is just too simple to bring doubt. If your system has parasites it's not a healthy system. Please do not think that your fishes are strong enough to deal with a real infestation of parasites in a closed system. Play with food and temperature is just another thing that should be avoided. Our fishes do not deserve that man! Another thing to avoid is the use of medication in reef tanks (inverts).
Aloha,
Grandis.
Tsc, tsc. If you don't introduce the parasite in your system you'll not have to deal with it! Quarantine all organisms is the solution. It is impossible for the parasite to survive for a certain period of time if there is no fish to feed on (this time will depend on parasite and system). No, not every tank has the parasite, but almost all stores have them. This is just too simple to bring doubt. If your system has parasites it's not a healthy system. Please do not think that your fishes are strong enough to deal with a real infestation of parasites in a closed system. Play with food and temperature is just another thing that should be avoided. Our fishes do not deserve that man! Another thing to avoid is the use of medication in reef tanks (inverts).
Aloha,
Grandis.
First off, the lack of an outbreak does not mean the parasite is not present. Remember, this is a single celled organism. The white spots you see are massive colonies, not individuals. The parasites can attach to hosts in very small numbers - single cells or tens of cells - and complete their life cycle without being noticed or causing the fish any undue stress.
Basic logic says that if you see an outbreak you can conclude it is present, but if you don't see an outbreak, you can conclude nothing. Lack of an outbreak does not conclusively prove that the organism is not present, merely that it is not thriving.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
In the case of one of our show tanks in the store, yes. I am aware of the other vectors this parasite has to enter the tank, but note that in my original post I said nothing new added to the tank.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
You haven't seen our quarantine system. IMO the value in quarantining new arrivals is to aid in recovery from shipping stress and not specifically to treat disease. We don't medicate in our quarantine system, but we do provide it with sand, live rock, dark tank covers, and subdued lighting.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
I don't know if I agree with this one. Yes, if the parasites are out of control and overwhelming the fish, OK. But parasites are a natural part of the reef ecosystem and play an important role in the "survival of the fittest" game.
I would not wager any money on the presence or absence of a specific single celled organism within a large and complex mini-ecosystem like a reef tank. There are hundreds of thousands, and probably millions of species in your tank, most of them too small to be noticed or even seen.
Similarly, most people would be shocked to learn that gangrene is in their household dust, but it is. Just waiting for you to partially loose a limb so it can thrive in the anaerobic conditions it likes. Just like cryptocaryon, it's the lack of appropriate conditions that keeps it in check, not the absence of the organism.
Even medicating the tank is unlikely to completely wipe out the parasite - since it reproduces asexually, only one single cell has to survive as brood stock.
I was able to find a couple books that touch on this discussion. "Diseases in Marine Aquarium Fish" by Gerald Bassleer says:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
I think anytime anyone uses the words "always" or "never" there's a pretty good chance they are wrong. So I will amend my original premise, using the terminology used in the above quotes, to state that cryptocaryon is at least latent in virtually all marine aquariums, and pathogenic in those with high fish stress.
I still hold that the key is controlling the stress, not eliminating the parasite.
Good discussion!
Basic logic says that if you see an outbreak you can conclude it is present, but if you don't see an outbreak, you can conclude nothing. Lack of an outbreak does not conclusively prove that the organism is not present, merely that it is not thriving.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
In the case of one of our show tanks in the store, yes. I am aware of the other vectors this parasite has to enter the tank, but note that in my original post I said nothing new added to the tank.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
You haven't seen our quarantine system. IMO the value in quarantining new arrivals is to aid in recovery from shipping stress and not specifically to treat disease. We don't medicate in our quarantine system, but we do provide it with sand, live rock, dark tank covers, and subdued lighting.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
I don't know if I agree with this one. Yes, if the parasites are out of control and overwhelming the fish, OK. But parasites are a natural part of the reef ecosystem and play an important role in the "survival of the fittest" game.
I would not wager any money on the presence or absence of a specific single celled organism within a large and complex mini-ecosystem like a reef tank. There are hundreds of thousands, and probably millions of species in your tank, most of them too small to be noticed or even seen.
Similarly, most people would be shocked to learn that gangrene is in their household dust, but it is. Just waiting for you to partially loose a limb so it can thrive in the anaerobic conditions it likes. Just like cryptocaryon, it's the lack of appropriate conditions that keeps it in check, not the absence of the organism.
Even medicating the tank is unlikely to completely wipe out the parasite - since it reproduces asexually, only one single cell has to survive as brood stock.
I was able to find a couple books that touch on this discussion. "Diseases in Marine Aquarium Fish" by Gerald Bassleer says:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
"Marine Atlas, Volume 1" by Hans Baensch says:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
"The Conscienctious Marine Aquarist" by Rebert Fenner states:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
I think anytime anyone uses the words "always" or "never" there's a pretty good chance they are wrong. So I will amend my original premise, using the terminology used in the above quotes, to state that cryptocaryon is at least latent in virtually all marine aquariums, and pathogenic in those with high fish stress.
I still hold that the key is controlling the stress, not eliminating the parasite.
Good discussion!
Hi Matt,
Good job, now we are getting somewhere. You even gave some references to look up. I happen to have all of those books as well as a small library of books that are completely dedicated to the subject of fish disease, diagnosis and treatment. I am not at home at the moment so I can’t look them up. Can you give me the page number of each of them so I can put them in context?” I am not going to answer all your quotes because they are not all from me.
You said “The white spots you see are massive colonies, not individuals.”
This is not true. Although the spots can be found in dense numbers on a particular area of a fish a single Cryptocaryon irritan is easily visible to the naked eye when it has matured to the point that it is only a few days away from dropping off the host. The majority of spots that you see are only one trophont not several. What you usually see are multiple white spots in different places on the fish.
You are absolutely right that an infection is going to be subclinical before spots are visable. Just because an infection is not visible does not mean it is not there, but lack of symptoms does nothing to prove that it is there either. The subject of this discussion is not whether the parasite is often in an aquarium, but whether it is in all systems.
Fish that have been previously exposed to an ich infection but survived are known to have an increased resistance. In such a case given good conditions they may not manifest the infection until something happens to throw things out of balance. This can simply mean adding a new fish that does not have an increases resistance like its tankmates. The parasite now has a host on which they can greatly increase their numbers. By shear numbers the parasite then begins to manifest on other tankmates. Yes parasites are a natural part of the wild, but we are not talking about the reef here. It so happens that there have been studies examining fish from various locations for Cryptocaryon. I don’t recall them finding ich in the majority of fish from any geographical location. In Fujii only one out of 36 fish harbored any ich at all. These specimens were examined carefully.
Crptocaryon irritans has little in common with bacteria or viral infections and it does not behave like them. Many pathogens are facultative or opportunistic. Bacteria for the most part fall into this category. Some parasites are facultative, but ich is not one of them. Cryptocaryon irritans is an obligate parasite. This means it depends totally on a known host (fish). It cannot survive or complete its life cycle without a host. This means that if you remove the host it is only a matter of time before the parasite starves and dies out within a system. As far as treatments completely eradicating an infection this certainly can be accomplished. However, only two methods have proven to do so under scientific scrutiny. These are copper and hyposalinity treatments. The results are verifiable and repeatable.
Hyposalinity absolutely interrupts the life cycle. You just have to take into account that all the tomonts do not hatch at the same time. That is why treatment is supposed to last more than one life cycle. I recommend three weeks minimum.
Notice the words “almost always” in Bassleers quote. He implies frequent or usually not always. I would disagree with that but maybe I give the average hobbyist to much credit there. I don’t have the marine atlas handy, but off the top he is not known as any type of disease expert. I could say the same about Fenner. Now if you want to see what the real experts say read something by Noga, Stoskopf or Colorni. These guys are recognized by their peers as the real experts. Notice that Fenner said that wild fish often are infected with parasites. This is far from saying that all fish have ich. I would go farhter than Fenner by saying almost all wild caught fish have parasites, just not ich. Almost all of them have some type of internal worm. I still disagree that ich is present in all aquariums. This has been tested and it is common knowledge at fisheries. The very definition of obligate means that ich must be introduced and it can be eliminated.
Keep it going,
Terry B
Good job, now we are getting somewhere. You even gave some references to look up. I happen to have all of those books as well as a small library of books that are completely dedicated to the subject of fish disease, diagnosis and treatment. I am not at home at the moment so I can’t look them up. Can you give me the page number of each of them so I can put them in context?” I am not going to answer all your quotes because they are not all from me.
You said “The white spots you see are massive colonies, not individuals.”
This is not true. Although the spots can be found in dense numbers on a particular area of a fish a single Cryptocaryon irritan is easily visible to the naked eye when it has matured to the point that it is only a few days away from dropping off the host. The majority of spots that you see are only one trophont not several. What you usually see are multiple white spots in different places on the fish.
You are absolutely right that an infection is going to be subclinical before spots are visable. Just because an infection is not visible does not mean it is not there, but lack of symptoms does nothing to prove that it is there either. The subject of this discussion is not whether the parasite is often in an aquarium, but whether it is in all systems.
Fish that have been previously exposed to an ich infection but survived are known to have an increased resistance. In such a case given good conditions they may not manifest the infection until something happens to throw things out of balance. This can simply mean adding a new fish that does not have an increases resistance like its tankmates. The parasite now has a host on which they can greatly increase their numbers. By shear numbers the parasite then begins to manifest on other tankmates. Yes parasites are a natural part of the wild, but we are not talking about the reef here. It so happens that there have been studies examining fish from various locations for Cryptocaryon. I don’t recall them finding ich in the majority of fish from any geographical location. In Fujii only one out of 36 fish harbored any ich at all. These specimens were examined carefully.
Crptocaryon irritans has little in common with bacteria or viral infections and it does not behave like them. Many pathogens are facultative or opportunistic. Bacteria for the most part fall into this category. Some parasites are facultative, but ich is not one of them. Cryptocaryon irritans is an obligate parasite. This means it depends totally on a known host (fish). It cannot survive or complete its life cycle without a host. This means that if you remove the host it is only a matter of time before the parasite starves and dies out within a system. As far as treatments completely eradicating an infection this certainly can be accomplished. However, only two methods have proven to do so under scientific scrutiny. These are copper and hyposalinity treatments. The results are verifiable and repeatable.
Hyposalinity absolutely interrupts the life cycle. You just have to take into account that all the tomonts do not hatch at the same time. That is why treatment is supposed to last more than one life cycle. I recommend three weeks minimum.
Notice the words “almost always” in Bassleers quote. He implies frequent or usually not always. I would disagree with that but maybe I give the average hobbyist to much credit there. I don’t have the marine atlas handy, but off the top he is not known as any type of disease expert. I could say the same about Fenner. Now if you want to see what the real experts say read something by Noga, Stoskopf or Colorni. These guys are recognized by their peers as the real experts. Notice that Fenner said that wild fish often are infected with parasites. This is far from saying that all fish have ich. I would go farhter than Fenner by saying almost all wild caught fish have parasites, just not ich. Almost all of them have some type of internal worm. I still disagree that ich is present in all aquariums. This has been tested and it is common knowledge at fisheries. The very definition of obligate means that ich must be introduced and it can be eliminated.
Keep it going,
Terry B
- Location
- Virginia
Hey Matt, I agree that I haven't seen your system for quarantining fish, I was only talking about the systems that I have seen in LFS in my area. As far as quarantining, as well, I agree with you that the point of it should be to allow the fish to recover from the stressors it has encountered during capture and shipping. Unfortunately, IMO, this would require more space dedicated to quarantining than you have for showing your fish, which is not realistic for the most part due to the high costs of maintaining a store. The stores I see around here that have the healthiest fish are the ones that don't quarantine, and introduce into their display tanks, the ones that actively quarantine for a few weeks before bringing them out to sell generally have more dead fish in their systems and more obvious disease in their fish from what I have seen. If quarantining is done right, it is definitely a beneficial system to utilize, but unfortunately, it's often done wrong, and IMO results in more sick fish when done wrong.
By the way, I think it's impossible to eliminate a disease or parasite in a captive reef environment if you have fish in there, as it is unlikely that a hobbyist would a) medicate the tank - especially with copper which is said to be one of the two ways of effectively treating ich or b) use hyposalinity as corals would be adversely affected. I agree with what you say, though, in your final (somewhat convoluted) quote about parasites being present in most tanks. Obviously, if someone is extremely careful, they will have a perfect tank with no disease, but then again, that would be the person who has never had an aiptasia anemone in their tank, never had an undesireable flatworm in their tank, never had a fish die from an aggressive tank mate, never had a mantis shrimp, never had a piece of coral go for a tumble, etc. etc., and I don't know anyone who's never had a problem. Theoretically, it's possible, but I doubt it's happened to anyone, after all, how many of us take our fish out and dissect them and examine them under a microscope to see if they have ich? None of us.
By the way, I think it's impossible to eliminate a disease or parasite in a captive reef environment if you have fish in there, as it is unlikely that a hobbyist would a) medicate the tank - especially with copper which is said to be one of the two ways of effectively treating ich or b) use hyposalinity as corals would be adversely affected. I agree with what you say, though, in your final (somewhat convoluted) quote about parasites being present in most tanks. Obviously, if someone is extremely careful, they will have a perfect tank with no disease, but then again, that would be the person who has never had an aiptasia anemone in their tank, never had an undesireable flatworm in their tank, never had a fish die from an aggressive tank mate, never had a mantis shrimp, never had a piece of coral go for a tumble, etc. etc., and I don't know anyone who's never had a problem. Theoretically, it's possible, but I doubt it's happened to anyone, after all, how many of us take our fish out and dissect them and examine them under a microscope to see if they have ich? None of us.
Dave,
Just so you know, it is necessary to disect a fish or kill it to find out if it has ich. All you have to do is scrape a sample off the skin or gills and look at it under a microscope. But, everyone doesn't have a microscope or know what ich looks like under one.
You are right that you can't really eradicate ich from a reef once it gets in the tank without removing the fish for a month or more. After that the tank will be free of ich. You can eradicate it from fish using hyposalinity or copper if you administer it correctly. Then you can put the clean fish back into an ich free tank.
Ich is nothing like a virus. It does not appear out of thin air like a bacteria. ich must be introduced and this is most often done by skipping quarantine. I don't want to change the subject here to quarantine, but if you want to talk about that please start another thread. Let's keep this thread on the subject of whether or not ich is in all tanks.
Terry B
[ September 20, 2001: Message edited by: Terry B ]
Just so you know, it is necessary to disect a fish or kill it to find out if it has ich. All you have to do is scrape a sample off the skin or gills and look at it under a microscope. But, everyone doesn't have a microscope or know what ich looks like under one.
You are right that you can't really eradicate ich from a reef once it gets in the tank without removing the fish for a month or more. After that the tank will be free of ich. You can eradicate it from fish using hyposalinity or copper if you administer it correctly. Then you can put the clean fish back into an ich free tank.
Ich is nothing like a virus. It does not appear out of thin air like a bacteria. ich must be introduced and this is most often done by skipping quarantine. I don't want to change the subject here to quarantine, but if you want to talk about that please start another thread. Let's keep this thread on the subject of whether or not ich is in all tanks.
Terry B
[ September 20, 2001: Message edited by: Terry B ]
I don't have anything particularly scientific to add.. but experience (years of LFS owning/working, thousands of customers to talk too, etc) I'd have to say I agree with matt on this one.. I think his 2nd post laid out my feelings on this one pretty well.
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