I've been keeping marine tanks for five years, not a huge amount of time, but I have yet to have a single case of Ich. My systems are almost exclusively inverts and I never keep more than one fish per tank. Still, before I knew better I kept a yellow tang for 2 years in a 30g. I've heard them called ich magnets and this fish was never sick once. When I took it back to my LFS after I realized my system was too small the pwner couldn't believe how good its color and overall health were. I think we underestimate how unhealthy it is to overstock our tanks. Also, how often we introduce disease by not being picky enough about our livestock purchases and not quaranteening our new arrivals. I do not believe any of my systems have ever harbored the parasite.
Where does the idea that ich is present in all aquariums com
- Thread starter Terry B
- Start date
Yes, any rock, gravel, plant or invert could bring parasites to your tank. even natural water, if not properly filtered could. They could come in the mucus of some inverts, for example. Again Quarantine is the solution. Quarantine all new stuff before put in a tank with fishes.
Parasites are not like cold in humans, but like fleas on dogs. They are EXTERNAL PARASITES. All this stuff that people writes sometimes don't make any sense, but they just want to compare and convince people that it is a normal situation to have parasites in a close system. Tsc. tsc. I feel very sorry for those fishes that have to deal with parasites. This is just discussing... like a beautiful dog full of fleas. Poor fishes. Sorry my friends, but this situation needs to be changed.
Grandis.
Parasites are not like cold in humans, but like fleas on dogs. They are EXTERNAL PARASITES. All this stuff that people writes sometimes don't make any sense, but they just want to compare and convince people that it is a normal situation to have parasites in a close system. Tsc. tsc. I feel very sorry for those fishes that have to deal with parasites. This is just discussing... like a beautiful dog full of fleas. Poor fishes. Sorry my friends, but this situation needs to be changed.
Grandis.
In general, invertebrates and algaes can not be hosts for cyrptocaryon, meaning these animals can not complete the parasite's life cycle. But the dinospores can come into the tank on rock, sand, corals, algae, even brine shrimp, and then hatch and beginning looking for a (fish) host.
Isn't this all kind of a moot point?
To test the hypothesis that ich isn't present in a given tank, you need to add a host to the tank for the ich to parasitize. Therein lies the problem. How do you prove that the test host is completely ich free before adding it? I really don't see how you can.......
To test the hypothesis that ich isn't present in a given tank, you need to add a host to the tank for the ich to parasitize. Therein lies the problem. How do you prove that the test host is completely ich free before adding it? I really don't see how you can.......
Grandis,
Thanks for bringing some sanity here. Your analogy of ich being like fleas on a dog is a good one. The only problem with it is that a dog doesn't always stay in the house (like fish in a tank). They go outside and more fleas can jump on them or just come in the house on thier own. These little critters (ich)are not bacteria or viruses. They are not something that just occurs naturally in an aquarium either, bacteria do.
Vibrio for example can be found in just about any marine aquarium.
Terry B
Thanks for bringing some sanity here. Your analogy of ich being like fleas on a dog is a good one. The only problem with it is that a dog doesn't always stay in the house (like fish in a tank). They go outside and more fleas can jump on them or just come in the house on thier own. These little critters (ich)are not bacteria or viruses. They are not something that just occurs naturally in an aquarium either, bacteria do.
Vibrio for example can be found in just about any marine aquarium.
Terry B
Chucker,
Its pretty simple to tell if a fish harbors ich or not because it is an external parasite. All you have to do is scrape a sample off the fish and look at it under a microscope. I know everyone doesn't have one. You can be pretty secure in the fact that a fish that has been properly treated with a proven method does not carry ich. You can also be pretty certain that a tank that has been fishless for a month or more doesn't have any either. Add only clean fish to a clean tank and you eliminate the vast majority of infections.
As far as inverts harboring ich, the answer is yes and no. No, inverts do not get ich. Yes, ich tomonts can attach to any hard surface and if you put live rock in your system that can from an infected tank you will probably have ich then. The free swimming stage can also be brought in with just a little water. However the free swimming stage is only viable for less than a day so you would have to time it just right. You can import ich by placing a pump or heater in your tank that came from an infected tank. If you are going to move equipment from tank to tank dry it out for at least 24 hours. Drying does kill the tomonts (reproductive stage off the fish).
Terry B
Its pretty simple to tell if a fish harbors ich or not because it is an external parasite. All you have to do is scrape a sample off the fish and look at it under a microscope. I know everyone doesn't have one. You can be pretty secure in the fact that a fish that has been properly treated with a proven method does not carry ich. You can also be pretty certain that a tank that has been fishless for a month or more doesn't have any either. Add only clean fish to a clean tank and you eliminate the vast majority of infections.
As far as inverts harboring ich, the answer is yes and no. No, inverts do not get ich. Yes, ich tomonts can attach to any hard surface and if you put live rock in your system that can from an infected tank you will probably have ich then. The free swimming stage can also be brought in with just a little water. However the free swimming stage is only viable for less than a day so you would have to time it just right. You can import ich by placing a pump or heater in your tank that came from an infected tank. If you are going to move equipment from tank to tank dry it out for at least 24 hours. Drying does kill the tomonts (reproductive stage off the fish).
Terry B
- Location
- Virginia
Do tomonts ever lie dormant? If they can lie dormant without hatching (you seem to indicate that the 30 day cylce will eliminate all ich that is present) then it would make sense that you can never be sure that your tank is ich free. I don't know the answer to this one, I'm only asking.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by davelin315:
<STRONG>Do tomonts ever lie dormant? If they can lie dormant without hatching (you seem to indicate that the 30 day cylce will eliminate all ich that is present) then it would make sense that you can never be sure that your tank is ich free. I don't know the answer to this one, I'm only asking.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, they do not go dormant.
<STRONG>Do tomonts ever lie dormant? If they can lie dormant without hatching (you seem to indicate that the 30 day cylce will eliminate all ich that is present) then it would make sense that you can never be sure that your tank is ich free. I don't know the answer to this one, I'm only asking.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, they do not go dormant.
grandis,
I am missing your logic:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
If you quarentine the fish for whatever period of time, the fish being quarentined would be the host! Matt quoted several sources that seemed to indicate that the parasite can lie dormant in the fish for a time and then under certain conditions, reappear. How exactly would quarentining the fish gaurantee that it would be ich-free? Tsc, tsc, please explain yourself.
Matt, good info.
I plan on setting up a small quarentine tank, but have to sell the wife on it. To her its just another tank to set up.
I am missing your logic:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
If you quarentine the fish for whatever period of time, the fish being quarentined would be the host! Matt quoted several sources that seemed to indicate that the parasite can lie dormant in the fish for a time and then under certain conditions, reappear. How exactly would quarentining the fish gaurantee that it would be ich-free? Tsc, tsc, please explain yourself.
Matt, good info.
I plan on setting up a small quarentine tank, but have to sell the wife on it. To her its just another tank to set up.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by esmithiii:
<STRONG>grandis,
I am missing your logic:
If you quarentine the fish for whatever period of time, the fish being quarentined would be the host! Matt quoted several sources that seemed to indicate that the parasite can lie dormant in the fish for a time and then under certain conditions, reappear. How exactly would quarentining the fish gaurantee that it would be ich-free? Tsc, tsc, please explain yourself.
Matt, good info.
</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
With fish, if your not experienced enough to recognize the signs of a low level infection, then medication is the only way to be sure. Matt quoted no sources that said ich goes dormant, just that low level infections could go on indefinately till stress gave them the upper hand.
<STRONG>grandis,
I am missing your logic:
If you quarentine the fish for whatever period of time, the fish being quarentined would be the host! Matt quoted several sources that seemed to indicate that the parasite can lie dormant in the fish for a time and then under certain conditions, reappear. How exactly would quarentining the fish gaurantee that it would be ich-free? Tsc, tsc, please explain yourself.
Matt, good info.
</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
With fish, if your not experienced enough to recognize the signs of a low level infection, then medication is the only way to be sure. Matt quoted no sources that said ich goes dormant, just that low level infections could go on indefinately till stress gave them the upper hand.
jmeader,
Since I am not experienced enough, please inform me of what a "low level infection" looks like. I have had fish that have been in my tank for over a year and then, due to stress show visible signs of cryptocaryon irritans. They all recovered without medication. Are you saying that they had a "low level infection" for a whole year and I did not notice it? Man, I must be more inexperienced than I thought.
If you read the quotes, they use the term "latent" which I then substituted the word "dormant," which was obviously my mistake. I don't equate "latent" with "low level infection."
Ernie
Since I am not experienced enough, please inform me of what a "low level infection" looks like. I have had fish that have been in my tank for over a year and then, due to stress show visible signs of cryptocaryon irritans. They all recovered without medication. Are you saying that they had a "low level infection" for a whole year and I did not notice it? Man, I must be more inexperienced than I thought.
If you read the quotes, they use the term "latent" which I then substituted the word "dormant," which was obviously my mistake. I don't equate "latent" with "low level infection."
Ernie
Hello,
If you leave the tank without fishes for a period between 1 and 2 months (2 months for sure!) the parasites, if any, will die.
A quarantine tank is not a hospital tank. Quarantine is to observe and will depend on the species of fish for the time to end of the quarantine period. The parasites ("marine ich") are not dormant, so if you observe the fish you'll see if it reacts to parasites (scratching yourself, etc.), or not. The dormant idea comes from the difference between periods that can change according to the temperature of the environment that affect the time of the reproductive cycle and consequently the parasite's life cycle period. Normally, because almost all the fishes coming from stores are infected, we can set a hospital tank instead only observe the animal in a quarantine set up. The treatment is simple and most of the copper based medications on the market will to the trick. I use Coppersafe. The actual quarantine set up would work better for a invertebrate that will bring parasites from the store's system. Even if the invertebrate doesn't have any parasite that will survive the mucus or not being attached to body parts is will probably be introduced with the WATER FROM THE BAG.
There is NO POSSIBILITIES to have marine ich in your system if we follow this directions.
About the dog stuff... we can compare the dog going out and getting more fleas being the same as we putting more "fleas" in our system when we buy new animals, plants or rocks.
Inverts can and will bring parasites to the tank in it's beginning stage of life and another example is when the parasite comes introduced located on a shrimp's body. It doesn't feed on the invert or plant, of course, but only "uses" it as transportation.
I'm sorry if I didn't explain myself clear in the last post. Many aquarists know about all I've said, I believe, but because of this laws that sometimes people are used to hear and stay quiet just to make the others happy with their philosophy, it wastes away and only some really uses the right tools of fishkeeping. It is time to face fish parasites as a bad thing in a close system and eradicate them. Please do not protect the "cold/flu law" nor the "feeding a lot law". Feeding is just a regular VERY important daily maintenance of your system. All animals need to eat. Close systems will starve one day if food is not introduced to them. So, lets know that feeding properly (not too much, not too little) is a normal responsibility, not a possible temporary cure to external parasites.
God bless and aloooha,
Grandis.
If you leave the tank without fishes for a period between 1 and 2 months (2 months for sure!) the parasites, if any, will die.
A quarantine tank is not a hospital tank. Quarantine is to observe and will depend on the species of fish for the time to end of the quarantine period. The parasites ("marine ich") are not dormant, so if you observe the fish you'll see if it reacts to parasites (scratching yourself, etc.), or not. The dormant idea comes from the difference between periods that can change according to the temperature of the environment that affect the time of the reproductive cycle and consequently the parasite's life cycle period. Normally, because almost all the fishes coming from stores are infected, we can set a hospital tank instead only observe the animal in a quarantine set up. The treatment is simple and most of the copper based medications on the market will to the trick. I use Coppersafe. The actual quarantine set up would work better for a invertebrate that will bring parasites from the store's system. Even if the invertebrate doesn't have any parasite that will survive the mucus or not being attached to body parts is will probably be introduced with the WATER FROM THE BAG.
There is NO POSSIBILITIES to have marine ich in your system if we follow this directions.
About the dog stuff... we can compare the dog going out and getting more fleas being the same as we putting more "fleas" in our system when we buy new animals, plants or rocks.
Inverts can and will bring parasites to the tank in it's beginning stage of life and another example is when the parasite comes introduced located on a shrimp's body. It doesn't feed on the invert or plant, of course, but only "uses" it as transportation.
I'm sorry if I didn't explain myself clear in the last post. Many aquarists know about all I've said, I believe, but because of this laws that sometimes people are used to hear and stay quiet just to make the others happy with their philosophy, it wastes away and only some really uses the right tools of fishkeeping. It is time to face fish parasites as a bad thing in a close system and eradicate them. Please do not protect the "cold/flu law" nor the "feeding a lot law". Feeding is just a regular VERY important daily maintenance of your system. All animals need to eat. Close systems will starve one day if food is not introduced to them. So, lets know that feeding properly (not too much, not too little) is a normal responsibility, not a possible temporary cure to external parasites.
God bless and aloooha,
Grandis.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by esmithiii:
<STRONG>jmeader,
Since I am not experienced enough, please inform me of what a "low level infection" looks like. I have had fish that have been in my tank for over a year and then, due to stress show visible signs of cryptocaryon irritans. They all recovered without medication. Are you saying that they had a "low level infection" for a whole year and I did not notice it? Man, I must be more inexperienced than I thought.
If you read the quotes, they use the term "latent" which I then substituted the word "dormant," which was obviously my mistake. I don't equate "latent" with "low level infection."
Ernie</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
First of all your your assumption of equating latent with dormant is understandable as it was a poor choice of words for them to use. The problem being that one of the definations for it is dormant, but the defination that applies in their use is: Present without being evident.
From your description of your case, assuming nothing new was added, then yes you did have a low level infection for all of that time, and still do. As for your inexperience, I'd have to say yes you are. I've been keeping marine fish for over 25 years and still consider myself to be inexperienced. Particularly in a situation like this since to spot a low level infection you have to be very familiar with that particular species resperation rate, color variation relating to stress, behavior relating to stress, the easy scratching, and staying in high flow areas. The differences can be very slight and are very easily missed when you are not even activily looking for them. These are the signs I watch for in quarantine. If I have any doubt, suspecious signs or just unfamiliar with that particular species, then I medicate. Which is why I haven't had to deal with ich in any other tank except quarantine for over 10 years. In that time there have been plenty of power outages, etc. There is no getting completely away from problems that cause stress. That is what makes the extra effort required to keep ich out of the tank much more than just worthwhile.
<STRONG>jmeader,
Since I am not experienced enough, please inform me of what a "low level infection" looks like. I have had fish that have been in my tank for over a year and then, due to stress show visible signs of cryptocaryon irritans. They all recovered without medication. Are you saying that they had a "low level infection" for a whole year and I did not notice it? Man, I must be more inexperienced than I thought.
If you read the quotes, they use the term "latent" which I then substituted the word "dormant," which was obviously my mistake. I don't equate "latent" with "low level infection."
Ernie</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
First of all your your assumption of equating latent with dormant is understandable as it was a poor choice of words for them to use. The problem being that one of the definations for it is dormant, but the defination that applies in their use is: Present without being evident.
From your description of your case, assuming nothing new was added, then yes you did have a low level infection for all of that time, and still do. As for your inexperience, I'd have to say yes you are. I've been keeping marine fish for over 25 years and still consider myself to be inexperienced. Particularly in a situation like this since to spot a low level infection you have to be very familiar with that particular species resperation rate, color variation relating to stress, behavior relating to stress, the easy scratching, and staying in high flow areas. The differences can be very slight and are very easily missed when you are not even activily looking for them. These are the signs I watch for in quarantine. If I have any doubt, suspecious signs or just unfamiliar with that particular species, then I medicate. Which is why I haven't had to deal with ich in any other tank except quarantine for over 10 years. In that time there have been plenty of power outages, etc. There is no getting completely away from problems that cause stress. That is what makes the extra effort required to keep ich out of the tank much more than just worthwhile.
Actually it is not like a tick on a dog it is more like mange on a dog. If a dog is very healthy it will not get the mange, but when it is stressed hard like when I took my puppy down the Guadalupe they can get it because their immune system is weakened. Mange is kind of a bad example because there are different types on mange. Hmmrm I am trying to figure out why I even wrote that stuff.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by repstein:
<STRONG>Actually it is not like a tick on a dog it is more like mange on a dog. If a dog is very healthy it will not get the mange, but when it is stressed hard like when I took my puppy down the Guadalupe they can get it because their immune system is weakened. Mange is kind of a bad example because there are different types on mange. Hmmrm I am trying to figure out why I even wrote that stuff.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's a pretty good analogy since mange is caused by parasitic mites, the type of mange depending on the species of mite that causes it. Also they are not always present on all dogs and an infected dog can spread them to otherwise healthy dogs, which will no longer be healthy. Of course that's not the point you appeared to be trying to make
<STRONG>Actually it is not like a tick on a dog it is more like mange on a dog. If a dog is very healthy it will not get the mange, but when it is stressed hard like when I took my puppy down the Guadalupe they can get it because their immune system is weakened. Mange is kind of a bad example because there are different types on mange. Hmmrm I am trying to figure out why I even wrote that stuff.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's a pretty good analogy since mange is caused by parasitic mites, the type of mange depending on the species of mite that causes it. Also they are not always present on all dogs and an infected dog can spread them to otherwise healthy dogs, which will no longer be healthy. Of course that's not the point you appeared to be trying to make
OK, I think I understand. I know I am being dense, but bear with me and see if I got it right. If I understand what Grandis and Butch are saying, then you suggest the following procedure be followed religiously to eradicate the ick from the display aquarium:
1) All new inverts/liverock introduced to the display aquarium should be quarentined for at least 20 days to kill any parasites present.
2) If the reefkeeper is familiar enough with a particular species to know symptoms of a low level infestation (including but not limited to slight behavioral cues, slight coloration variation, respiration rate abnormalities, scratching, positioning in high flow areas, etc) then Fish should be quarentined for at least one week for observation.
3) If the reefkeeper is not very familiar with the species, it should be placed in a hospital tank and medicated.
Is this what you are suggesting? Now my wife will have to put up w/ TWO extra tanks!
Ernie
1) All new inverts/liverock introduced to the display aquarium should be quarentined for at least 20 days to kill any parasites present.
2) If the reefkeeper is familiar enough with a particular species to know symptoms of a low level infestation (including but not limited to slight behavioral cues, slight coloration variation, respiration rate abnormalities, scratching, positioning in high flow areas, etc) then Fish should be quarentined for at least one week for observation.
3) If the reefkeeper is not very familiar with the species, it should be placed in a hospital tank and medicated.
Is this what you are suggesting? Now my wife will have to put up w/ TWO extra tanks!
Ernie
Hi,
"...That is why it is present in almost all tanks."
And it shouldn't be. Yes, you'll need more tanks. Don't forget that if you quarantine the inverts, you need to finish that quarantine without put nothing in it that tank that could bring new parasites. In other words: buy one more coral, start a new separated quarantine for that, if the time for the old quarantine is not done. Never put medicine when quarantine inverts but make the medicated quarantine (hospital tank) for those new fishes that you get. Is this kind of crazy? Yeap, it can sound crazy because today most of the aquarists in the world never do quarantine. What is totally insane and irresponsible. Instead they try to find words to make them comfort and deal with problems, not eradicating them. But when you do the right thing you'll be glad to know that the parasite problem will be NEVER there, and you'll have a health system. health = without health problems.
And... you'll get used to it with the time, don't worry. Ah, before someone comes with the natural environment issue... In nature the parasites can reproduce and complete their cycle because they are not in a close system that concentrate all the infestation in so little physical space. Besides that (then we can use the words stress and food), natural feeding and stress free is the key. And... nature is normally perfect, thank God.
Take care.
Grandis.
"...That is why it is present in almost all tanks."
And it shouldn't be. Yes, you'll need more tanks. Don't forget that if you quarantine the inverts, you need to finish that quarantine without put nothing in it that tank that could bring new parasites. In other words: buy one more coral, start a new separated quarantine for that, if the time for the old quarantine is not done. Never put medicine when quarantine inverts but make the medicated quarantine (hospital tank) for those new fishes that you get. Is this kind of crazy? Yeap, it can sound crazy because today most of the aquarists in the world never do quarantine. What is totally insane and irresponsible. Instead they try to find words to make them comfort and deal with problems, not eradicating them. But when you do the right thing you'll be glad to know that the parasite problem will be NEVER there, and you'll have a health system. health = without health problems.
Take care.
Grandis.
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