Why not have all scientists head all their research papers with "Human Pox on all of Earth." In fact, why even waste the money paying these people with government funds to do any research when the conclusions have already been made. Skip the middleman and just have Hollywood script writers write for scientific journals.
pcmankey":lfjfq5hn said:
This is precisely why I applaud good scientists such as Jim Porter. He in no way says human waste is responsible, but points out that there are a few causes that need to be investigated. The media may have blown it up, and I hate the media for this, because they polarize environmentalists and make them look arrogant and quick-to-proclaim.
However, it may have the added effect of expediting the conversion to sewage treatment in the Keys. I'm tired of not being able to visit Anne's Beach because the fecal coliform counts are too high.
pcmankey,
Respectfully, I think Steve (SPC) is making the point that serratia is a human pox, and it has now been found on the reefs.
If you would like to learn more about just how it is a pox to humans, visit the link: http://www.projectlinks.org/serratia/
Serratia is implicated in nosocomial infections involving the urinary tract infections, in cystic fibrosis, and in burns.
Respectfully, I think Steve (SPC) is making the point that serratia is a human pox, and it has now been found on the reefs.
If you would like to learn more about just how it is a pox to humans, visit the link: http://www.projectlinks.org/serratia/
Serratia is implicated in nosocomial infections involving the urinary tract infections, in cystic fibrosis, and in burns.
Dr. Reef":1gvmmrl7 said:
He only moderates his own forum and is gone half the time doing coral surveys.
He is still definitely in academia, working on his Phd at U of Houston on what else but coral disease etiology. Esther Peters who contributed to the original article is for lack of a better word, his mentor. Here is the thread in his forum (you have to register, if you have not already done so):http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/sh ... adid=94395
He has not had the chance to read the original yet, but does mention that Andy Bruckner had linked the "white pox" to fecal deposits from Parrotfish several years ago. Does Parrotfish fecal matter contain this bacteria...I have no idea??
I think we should all agree that maybe the worst thing that can happen from the media running off with the information is that the Keys will be forced to "clean up", which no matter what, will be a good thing for ALL of the ecosystems in the area.
Dr. Reef":2ydtide6 said:
Dr. Reef, this is the crux of the problem. When hyperbolic conclusions are issued by media reporters that don't have the slightest clue it sends me into a tailspin. It makes real researchers look like a bunch of shrieking extreme alarmists, and this turns people off and ultimately does serious damage, because now half the country doesn't believe anything anybody says concerning the environment. There were those Federal Wildlife/Game people that planted lynx evidence so they could declare a region protected by the endangered species act. This kind of thing is enormously damaging to people trying to get something real accomplished. Who's going to believe them? I grew up in Southern California and spent thousands of days at the beach, a girl on my block got hepatitis from a sewage spill. I know these things exist and cause damage--I just want the research and reporting done in a careful responsible way so we don't have half the population thinking it's all a sham and politically motivated. Unfortunately, one of the political parties have usurped the environmental movement as their own, and are not helping it, but hurting it by politicizing everything. I don't know if anything gains by becoming a polarizing political issue. Maybe in the short run but not in the long run.
Posted by Dr Reef:
-Yes that and this next post by saltshop:
-I agree that the media should not get it wrong, but I also know that environemental issues have been placed on the back burner for too many years. What gets me alot more angry than this headline is that this pitiful scenario continues taking place in the Keys. When I was a boy growing up in Miami in the 50s and 60s I can remember the septic tank issue being debated. Each year it would be pushed aside in order to address such things as increasing tourists dollars and building more structures. I left the area in 1975 and just presumed that a problem such as this had been rectified many years ago, can you imagine my surprise when I read that this is still going on. The solution to this situation seems real simple to me, don't allow pollution to enter the ocean in South Fla no matter how much money or time is involved!
Steve
-Yes that and this next post by saltshop:
-I agree that the media should not get it wrong, but I also know that environemental issues have been placed on the back burner for too many years. What gets me alot more angry than this headline is that this pitiful scenario continues taking place in the Keys. When I was a boy growing up in Miami in the 50s and 60s I can remember the septic tank issue being debated. Each year it would be pushed aside in order to address such things as increasing tourists dollars and building more structures. I left the area in 1975 and just presumed that a problem such as this had been rectified many years ago, can you imagine my surprise when I read that this is still going on. The solution to this situation seems real simple to me, don't allow pollution to enter the ocean in South Fla no matter how much money or time is involved!
Steve
If you look at the headline that I quoted, it says "disease from sewerage." Is that so inaccurate?
FWIW I am a scientist and run my own research group and I don't have time to go to the movies so I have no idea what you are talking about in terms of hollywood.
For every knee-jerk liberal media report on this kind of stuff, I can find probably five right-wing commentators or talk show hosts willing to say all scientists are corrupt and exaggerate everything so they can get more federal grant money, and that the media invent all environmental problems and then report them with extreme hysteria.
Apparently this guy also studies the effects of the bombing range in Puerto Rico on the nearby marine ecosystem. Do you read a lot about that in the press?
(As I have said before, oceanography and environmental science is really very poorly funded compared to say biomedical research. People don't go into that area if they are hungry for big research grants.)
FWIW I am a scientist and run my own research group and I don't have time to go to the movies so I have no idea what you are talking about in terms of hollywood.
For every knee-jerk liberal media report on this kind of stuff, I can find probably five right-wing commentators or talk show hosts willing to say all scientists are corrupt and exaggerate everything so they can get more federal grant money, and that the media invent all environmental problems and then report them with extreme hysteria.
Apparently this guy also studies the effects of the bombing range in Puerto Rico on the nearby marine ecosystem. Do you read a lot about that in the press?
(As I have said before, oceanography and environmental science is really very poorly funded compared to say biomedical research. People don't go into that area if they are hungry for big research grants.)
Anemone of the State":11umv7ov said:
Yes, if that's not the source, and no one has concluded that yet.
Anemone of the State":11umv7ov said:
That's strange. It didn't take you long to throw Rush Limbaugh into the mix. Apparently, you have time to listen to him everyday.
Anemone of the State":11umv7ov said:
Try tuning in NPR--then you'll hear what you want to hear, but what do you expect? After flat out lies and deception like that lynx story in the Pacific Northwest everything needs to be heavily scrutinized. I worked for 10 years in a university and I have seen plenty of researchers blow there results out of proportion, or design the research to get the results they want, so as to enhance there grant getting capability. Unfortunately, the "environmental" movement has been usurped by the left wing and has become a major political tool.
Anemone of the State":11umv7ov said:
This was in the news and as usual with anything dealing with the environment became a hot political issue.
Once again, I am not opposed to research, nor results that conclude a human source. But before a conclusion is even reached it becomes another hyperbolic story of how human beings are destroying the earth, and how so and so must be elected to save the planet--that is a joke, and has nothing to do with science and research.
Funding is going to go down and down the more of these stories are blown out of proportion--everyday people are already skeptical of funding science because they don't understand the value of studying a single microbe infesting one coral. My point: Keep the research scientific and out of politics and hyperbolic sensationalism.
If you think NPR is left-wing, you obviously are smoking much better crack than the rest of us.
Your comments clearly reveal that you are the one with a political Jihad to wage on this.
Hey, but don't let rationality sway you. Just crank up your air conditioner, breathe deeply of the combusting forests, and chant this mantra repeatedly: "Global warming is a lefty-liberal hoax. Raw sewerage is good for coral reefs. Aurthor Anderson is an honest accounting firm." Then close your eyes and pretend the world actually is in reality what it appears to you looking backward through a rose=colored mist. You'll feel better. I promise.
:lol:
Your comments clearly reveal that you are the one with a political Jihad to wage on this.
Hey, but don't let rationality sway you. Just crank up your air conditioner, breathe deeply of the combusting forests, and chant this mantra repeatedly: "Global warming is a lefty-liberal hoax. Raw sewerage is good for coral reefs. Aurthor Anderson is an honest accounting firm." Then close your eyes and pretend the world actually is in reality what it appears to you looking backward through a rose=colored mist. You'll feel better. I promise.
:lol:
Posted by pcmankey:
-If I may, human beings destroying the earth is not a hyperbolic story, its a fact. Just because there is the occational hyperbolic story does not lessen the fact that this is true. Would you propose that research data not be released if there is a possibilty of it being misconstrued?
Steve
-If I may, human beings destroying the earth is not a hyperbolic story, its a fact. Just because there is the occational hyperbolic story does not lessen the fact that this is true. Would you propose that research data not be released if there is a possibilty of it being misconstrued?
Steve
Anemone of the State":1ph6a7sg said:
I didn't draw my own conclusions from the paper--that was you. I take it on face value and will wait to see what other researchers have to say. From your point of view the research doesn't even need to be done--it's obviously from sewage--so why even bother with it? You should be on a campaign to kick all humans out of the Florida Keys before they destroy them. Also, you don't refute a single thing I say. Your only argument is that I listen to Rush Limbaugh and smoke crack, and of course the typical left wing technique of demonization--now I'm on a Jihad because I don't blindly support you. That's some research group you head up. Is this the types of arguments you use to support your hypotheses when others don't immediately jump on your bandwagon? What do you and your brilliant researchers do, peruse that monolith of scientific inquiry written by the highly educated and master researcher Al Gore?
SPC: It is not possible for humans to destroy the earth. One asteroid, ice age, volcano, etc. can and have done more, much much more, in the past and the earth is some how still here. Go figure. I expect Jerry Springer to run the hyperbolic story but not Scientific American and other such periodicals.
there is another 'soil' related theory which was reported in fair detail on either the discovery,or the learning channel, that also links with the transmitted bacteria idea-huge dust clouds kicking off from areas in africa are shown, by sattelite imagery, to be depositing huge amounts of fine silt in the carribean.if my memory serves me correctly, a correlation was established between the time of the clouds and the incidence of the coral disease.(the pathogen was found in the soil at the source) it would be interesting to knoow if anyone in the s.w. community has observations to back up or refute this hypothesis :?:
Posted by pcmankey:
I think I am begining to see the direction you are headed with this, the earth will survive no matter what man does to it. Well I am sure we all understand that in its very basic context. Some of us however would like to think that we as a species we are intelligent enough to try and live in harmony with the planet. When we see that raw sewage is being dumped into the ocean and do not have the foresight to do something about it, then we as a species are doomed (yes I said doomed :wink: ). Sure the planet will still be here, and in fact some of our human ancestors may even be left, left to curse us for screwing it all up.
-I'll propose this same question to you again:
Would you propose that research data not be released if there is a possibilty of it being misconstrued?
Steve
I think I am begining to see the direction you are headed with this, the earth will survive no matter what man does to it. Well I am sure we all understand that in its very basic context. Some of us however would like to think that we as a species we are intelligent enough to try and live in harmony with the planet. When we see that raw sewage is being dumped into the ocean and do not have the foresight to do something about it, then we as a species are doomed (yes I said doomed :wink: ). Sure the planet will still be here, and in fact some of our human ancestors may even be left, left to curse us for screwing it all up.
-I'll propose this same question to you again:
Would you propose that research data not be released if there is a possibilty of it being misconstrued?
Steve
Actually I do macromolecular X-ray crystallography on proteins and nucleic acids with the ultimate aim of structure-based drug design. (Drugs against diseases, that is, not recreational ones...)
Let's look at it slightly differently: The paper in PNAS reports this coral is being decimated by a bacterial species that is known to be present in the human gut, and those of a few other mammals, and nowhere else to my knowledge in significantly high concentrations. Where did it come from? A fairly reasonable hypothesis, implicit in the paper, is that it came from the human gut. So either a boatload of Japanese spilled their guts all over the coral while committing HarriKarri (sp?) or else it comes from partially untreated sewerage. Its presence correlates with the presence of septic systems leaching into the water. Does this prove that is the source? No. But I think it is fair to say that if there is some other source to be suggested, the burden of proof is now on the critic.
Does it entail that people should be removed from the Caribian? No, but it does suggest that maybe sewerage treatment ought to be more thorough, or, heaven forbid, maybe shouldn't be discharged into the ocean in the first place.
But then anyone who holds such opinions must be some sort of knee-jerk leftist freak environmental extremist, I guess.
Do you really think Gore was a leftist too? Just curious? Have you ever met a real leftist? You go to most European countries and you will find their Labor Parties are essentially socialist, with their leadership quoting Marx and stuff like that. Prior to Tony Blair, the Labour Party anthem was about the Scarlet Banner. Have you ever seen anyone in the Democratic Party that does that? They would be drummed out in an instant.
Get a grip on reality, dude.
Let's look at it slightly differently: The paper in PNAS reports this coral is being decimated by a bacterial species that is known to be present in the human gut, and those of a few other mammals, and nowhere else to my knowledge in significantly high concentrations. Where did it come from? A fairly reasonable hypothesis, implicit in the paper, is that it came from the human gut. So either a boatload of Japanese spilled their guts all over the coral while committing HarriKarri (sp?) or else it comes from partially untreated sewerage. Its presence correlates with the presence of septic systems leaching into the water. Does this prove that is the source? No. But I think it is fair to say that if there is some other source to be suggested, the burden of proof is now on the critic.
Does it entail that people should be removed from the Caribian? No, but it does suggest that maybe sewerage treatment ought to be more thorough, or, heaven forbid, maybe shouldn't be discharged into the ocean in the first place.
But then anyone who holds such opinions must be some sort of knee-jerk leftist freak environmental extremist, I guess.
Do you really think Gore was a leftist too? Just curious? Have you ever met a real leftist? You go to most European countries and you will find their Labor Parties are essentially socialist, with their leadership quoting Marx and stuff like that. Prior to Tony Blair, the Labour Party anthem was about the Scarlet Banner. Have you ever seen anyone in the Democratic Party that does that? They would be drummed out in an instant.
Get a grip on reality, dude.
Anemone of the State":1hfbbv6d said:
These are not the only two possiblities, and the most egregious assumption on your part is that this bacteria resides in humans and this one coral only. It would be extraordinary if the pathogen resided only in humans and one single species of coral. Maybe you don't find that strange but I certainly do. Ergo, it is possble that the origin is something else, and since humans have been there in the Keys for a long long time, why would it only show up now? There are many possbilities and you just want the quick simpleton solution before the reseach is conclusive so you can do all your finger pointing, name calling, and slander about drug use and political affiliations.
Grow up. If I slandered you about drug use I simultaneously slandered everyone else on this b.b. with a comment like "you must have better crack than the rest of us." You called me a liberal and I am one of the only true Conservatives left in the country, and I feel deeply insulted. :roll:
There could be all sorts of reasons why it is only showing up now. Maybe the water temperature is going up to the thermal maximum of the coral and this is an opportunistic infection. Where did I get such an outlandish idea? Reading the paper.
Why do you have such a big sprig of calurpa up the old rectum about this?
This should be no more controversial than the idea that effects have causes.
The fact that the author said 2+2 rather than saying 4 does not mean that he could equally well have meant 3 or 5.
Apart from my penultimate post, where have I offered any solution, "simpleton" or otherwise.
However I am indeed deeply grateful that we paleolithic simpleton child-people have you aboard to read the scientific literature to us with your uniquely objective, scholarly and erudite elucidation of reality.
Before going off on your high-horse lecturing me or anyone else here about slander, take a look at what you wrote above about what I do for a living, even though you hadn't the slightest idea what I did before I told you.
Is this the same objectivity that prevents you from making "egregious assumptions" like the ones I supposedly am making before you are in possession of the facts?
I haven't made any assumptions about your political affiliations, and although it is tempting to blame your unique approach to logic and reason as drug-induced, I think it is probably much more likely a fairly toxic brew of vitriol, arrogance and downright ignorance.
Sorry, but you are way out of line.
There could be all sorts of reasons why it is only showing up now. Maybe the water temperature is going up to the thermal maximum of the coral and this is an opportunistic infection. Where did I get such an outlandish idea? Reading the paper.
Why do you have such a big sprig of calurpa up the old rectum about this?
This should be no more controversial than the idea that effects have causes.
The fact that the author said 2+2 rather than saying 4 does not mean that he could equally well have meant 3 or 5.
Apart from my penultimate post, where have I offered any solution, "simpleton" or otherwise.
However I am indeed deeply grateful that we paleolithic simpleton child-people have you aboard to read the scientific literature to us with your uniquely objective, scholarly and erudite elucidation of reality.
Before going off on your high-horse lecturing me or anyone else here about slander, take a look at what you wrote above about what I do for a living, even though you hadn't the slightest idea what I did before I told you.
Is this the same objectivity that prevents you from making "egregious assumptions" like the ones I supposedly am making before you are in possession of the facts?
I haven't made any assumptions about your political affiliations, and although it is tempting to blame your unique approach to logic and reason as drug-induced, I think it is probably much more likely a fairly toxic brew of vitriol, arrogance and downright ignorance.
Sorry, but you are way out of line.
Anemone of the State":1xsi8r4w said:
This is what you had to say when I pointed out that the authors did not conclude what you did. So, tell me who is way out of line. You started slinging **** the second someone even hinted that your summation wasn't quite accurate. And it wasn't and still isn't. You seriously need to go back and re-read your own posts--nothing but vitriol. I am responding to your posts, this is not one sided, so why don't you turn your questions towards me onto yourself? For instance, "Why do you have such a big sprig of calurpa up the old rectum about this?" Is everyone ignorant who doesn't follow you, or is it just me? What happens when you get peer reviewed and challenged on something? I suppose you go into a vitriolic rant on how ignorant the crack smoking, right-winging, Rush Limbaugh listening, fool is. What a professional you must be. By the way, these are all rhetorical questions--I don't really want to know.
pcmankey":1t7g44y4 said:
1) I'll confess to not knowing much about Serratia. However, in my cursory look at the literature both online, and in hits that our University library pulled up, it seems that serratia is concentrated in the human gut, and is relegated to causing rare diseases in humans, with little to no reporting on how wide-spread it is. I am led to beleive that it does not occur in heavy amounts in other animals, and I have yet to find incidence of a listing of a reef animal that can host the bacterium. Indeed, A. palmata is not a suitable host and has only recently succumbed to it as a parasitic disease.
2) I personally believe, and the literature supports the idea, that the main reasons the Keys are experiencing such exponentially increasing decline, is due to a few different things. Firstly, coral bleaching from increase SST anomolies has been on the rise. 1989, 1993, and 1998 were extremely stressful to reefs worldwide and the Keys saw huge die-offs. Those that lived have remained stressed as measured by gene expression from the work of Mark Warner and also of Terry Snell. Also, nutrient levels have been on the increase, as well as salinity. The Everglades Forever Act is attempting to address the salinity issue. 150 years of changed hydrologic patterns have caused many problems in the Everglades, and even the BAy and reefs. It will cost Federal Taxpayers $8 Billion to fix these problems.
A great introductory book, filled with incredibly recent work on the Florida ecosystems, and also containing great background material and maps has very recently become available.
IT is called:
The Evergaldes, Florida Bay, and Coral Reefs of the Florida Keys: An Ecosystem Sourcebook.
Editors: James W Porter and Karen G Porter.
available here at www.crcpress.com It was published earlier this year.
Cheers,
Brian
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