Tang Police - Info needed

[Mouse]

Yet again i was confronted by that all to familiar sight of a hippo tang in a 35G aquarium. This time in the "Readers Tanks" section of PFK, a magazine here in England.

This is the second time in the last three months that they have published readers tanks of this nature, and the second time i'v called the editor with my complaint. I find it unethical, and immoral, and it disturbs me that a magazine hoping to promote good practice in the trade would publish such an injustice.

This time when i spoke to the editor, she asked me if i would like to write an article about the reasons why a Tang is so unsuitable for anything under 100G. So i thought id ask you guys for some hard evidence as to why this practice is unacceptable and should not be tollerated.

So if anyone has anything to add, or if you can answer any of the questions below, id be most apreceative. And i bet theres a couple of Tangs out there that would be glad of it too. :wink:

Questions i would like to know.

1) Top speed of an average Tang (yellow)
2) Average distance traveld by a Tang
3) Waste production comparison of simmilar size fish
4) Terratory coverage in the wild
5) Consumption figures

etc etc, anything and everything please.

 

[liquid]

First thing I'd do is grab a couple good fish books off the shelf and see what they have to say about the subject:

http://reefs.org/library/reading/fish/fish.html

I also believe that Scott Michael's Reef Fishes vol 2 is coming out or is already out which would be another good book to check.

I think the big thing to consider is the adult size of a Tang. A full grown yellow tang is 8"-9" long. Imagine keeping something like that in a 3' tank. The fish's bodylength is 25% of the tank length. That would be cramped. Other surgeonfish get even larger -- upwards of 15". That would not be cool.

Hopefully that's a start for you. It'll be interesting to read your article when it's complete.

Shane

 

[Mouse]

Sure liquid, i'd like you to read it. Ill just have to be carefull that my heart doesn't get into it, or else i might seem a bit millitant. So instead i was just going to compile a load of facts and invite people to make up their own minds.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[Anonymous]

Mouse, since you're already having one 'expert' read it, I'd be more than happy to read it and give you a 'layman's' point of view on it. I'm not planning on keeping any tangs in the future, and I know a little about them, but I could give you some insight as to why it would discourage me from keeping one in a 'too small' tank.

Let me know if I can help...

Peace,

Chip

 

[Anemone]

I think the big thing to consider is the adult size of a Tang. A full grown yellow tang is 8"-9" long. Imagine keeping something like that in a 3' tank. The fish's bodylength is 25% of the tank length. That would be cramped. Other surgeonfish get even larger -- upwards of 15". That would not be cool.

I've seen foot-long Yellows in the wild, that were close to 10" tall (with dorsal fin fully extended). Imagine that in a 35 gallon aquarium. And based upon body shapes, the "sailfin" tangs are more appropriate for a smaller tank than are the more "teardrop-shaped" tangs (made for bursts of speed).

Don't take the approach in your article that tangs should never be kept in tanks of this size, but rather emphasize that only juveniles can be kept in smaller tanks, and a responsible aquarist will have a plan in place for a larger home for his/her tang before placing it in a smaller tank (not the nebulus, "some zoo or aquarium will probably take it if it gets too big").

What I'm saying is that I don't think you need to place a 1" hippo tang in a 125 gallon tank. And recognizing this fact when you write your article will make your arguments appear more balanced and reasonable.

Kevin

 

[MandarinFish]

"You people wouldn't believe the things that I've seen" - Roy Batty, BladeRunner

I've seen foot long yellows in aquariums. No joke.

 

[liquid]

Very interesting, Anemone. I've never heard that before. My 8"-9" "adult" size was quoted from Scott Michael's book Marine Fishes. I'm suprised he didn't mention that in there....

Shane

 

[Henry1]

I support the practice of housing tang only in large aquaria i.e. >100G.

Having a juvenile tang in a small tank (or any fish that is known to grow huge under natural condition), one will never see the animal grow anywhere near its natural size.
This is due to the fact that fish growth, apart from good water quality, proper feeding/nutrition etc, is also dependant on available space. Even in larger aquarium, eg 200G, it is rare to have a juvenile tang reach a foot in length.

Therefore, in a small aquarium, what we end up with is not so much of an oversized fish but a stunted one. Even if a fish reach 5 inch in a 38G tank, which make it look big and cramp is infact, a small and stunted fish
And that makes me . . . :x

 

[Anemone]

Very interesting, Anemone. I've never heard that before. My 8"-9" "adult" size was quoted from Scott Michael's book Marine Fishes. I'm suprised he didn't mention that in there....

I use Scott's books and articles as a bible too, but I've been snorkeling with foot-longers off the Kona coast. Now, admittedly, they didn't sit (swim?) still and let me measure them, but the nose to caudal peduncle measurement was closer to 12" than it was to 9". These fish were also 3+" "thick" through the stomach (looked like they swallowed tennis balls).....makes you realize how skinny the LFS tangs really are.


Henry,

I agree that tangs housed in smaller aquariums may not grow at "normal" rates. However, I'm not convinced that this is a terrible act of cruelty to the fish. I feel that if you try and tell people that they can't/shouldn't keep a tang unless they have a 200 gallon tank, you'll lose a very large portion of your audience. Besides clownfish, tangs are probably the most recognizable saltwater aquarium fish, and one of the major reasons many folks enter the hobby.

I think emphasizing the long-term commitment to moving these fish to larger quarters as well as stressing appropriate husbandry practices while they are kept in the smaller tanks, would do more to advance the condition and surviveability of large numbers of captive tangs, rather than losing the audience outright by stating they can't or shouldn't do what they want to (and probably will) do anyways. IMO, it's easier to raise awareness and change the behavior of others in small steps, rather than beating them over the heads.....

FWIW,
Kevin

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

Has anyone seen the display of Paracanthurus and Zebrasoma flavescens in the Cleveland Metro Parks Zoo?
Most Acanthuriids are sold at a fraction of the adult size.
The fact that I do not see many fully grown surgeonfish leads me to wonder what happens to all of them.
Paracanthurus hepatus grows to over 12 inches. This is the size of the specimens at the Cleveland zoo. It is a planktivore and likes space and currents in which to swim.
I find to many of these fish getting "dumped" if they survive to reach an appreciable size.
They also get less appealing looking with age.
My 10 inch "hippo" was taken in from a neglected 50 gallon reef system. At the time, this fish was 6 inches in length and VERY ill.
I did not think this fish would survive the first night in my aquarium. "Hole in the head" had ravaged this fishes' appearances.
In the same system was a 4 inch "yellow tang". It was covered with red "bloodspots" for lack of a better term.
This is another "tang" that I adopted at the same time- and is doing well for the past 4 years in my 220.{See "Featured Aquarium" in July's 'Advanced Aquarist' online magazine.}
Finally, after witnessing many returned surgeonfish at the pet shops, I adopted another surgeon- my Zebrasoma veliferum {sailfin}. This fish is now a foot long and a foot "tall"...and still growing! I urge fishkeepers to look for surgeonfish to "adopt".
There are many available, as this family of marine fish is very popular with the novice fishkeeping crowd.

 

[naesco]

For a balanced opinion on this issue you can count me in

 

[SPC]

Naesco, I think there is a good chance that goat could pop up before this thread is over :lol: .
Steve

 

[Henry1]

by Anemone,

I think emphasizing the long-term commitment to moving these fish to larger quarters as well as stressing appropriate husbandry practices while they are kept in the smaller tanks, would do more to advance the condition and surviveability of large numbers of captive tangs, rather than losing the audience outright by stating they can't or shouldn't do what they want to (and probably will) do anyways. IMO, it's easier to raise awareness and change the behavior of others in small steps, rather than beating them over the heads.....

Kevin, certainly agree wholeheartedly with you.

 

[naesco]

Kevin and Henry

The excellent advice provided by the tang police has in fact brought our reefing community to the realization that keeping tangs in small tanks is simply not acceptable.

The problem is that a very small minority try to justify their keeping tangs in small tanks and imply that it is OK for others to do so.

Thankfully they simply are not listened to by new reefers. The experienced reefers of course, know better.

 

[Mouse]

Wow, thanks for the replys guys. Ive seen big foot long yellows before, and blues and hippo's, all diving of course.

Hopefully this should start the ball rolling when i write my article. With correct information it could only ever be viewd as a cruel and unacceptable practice, and this is what im hoping to convey.

 

[JeremyR]

I would pretty much agree with kevin's take on the issue.. extremism never gets you anywhere, and pretty much guarantees people will see you as a fanatic and write you off rather than listen to what you have to say.

 

[dizzy]

Naeso, Mouse,

Why limit your crusade to tangs? If goal of this mission is to make it morally acceptable that we must only put fish (even babies) in tanks that would be comfortably for the adult of the species, then we should expand that logic to cover many more species. Why not include all the large angels that get above 12" like blueface, french, passer, queen, etc. Next let's include triggers like the clown, niger, queen, blue line etc. cause these guys get big too. Let us throw in many of the large friendly puffers and cowfish in this group. And don't forget groupers, sharks, eels, batfish, voliton lions, many wrasses and snappers.

Once we have finished making it taboo for the middle class to be able to keep the large marine fish, then perhaps we should set our sites on the corals themselves. I have seen leather corals that get 3-foot in diameter. Is it fair to keep a bright fellow like sarcophyton cramped up in a 75-gallon tank? Seems a bit like the Chinese binding the women's feet to me. The same thing goes with colt corals, acropora colonies, and even large tridacna clams like gigas. Go to the Waikiki and see how they house Euphyllia with one or two species only to a large tank. A lot of the corals we keep can get huge and there is no way they can ever reach maximum size keep in overcrowed conditions with all the other corals we like to jam in the tank.

Where do you draw the line? How does one person make moral and ethical decisions for another?

 

[liquid]

FWIW, I believe our ultimate goal is to provide a suitable "habitat" for the animals we keep, which means planning ahead for when the fish reaches adult size. If the person in question never plans to upgrade from that 40 breeder where he/she wants to keep that yellow tang, then IMHO the person should pass on the fish. Yes, it's hard to do, but it needs to be done. I don't see it as being an elitist thing as you seem to indicate. I just see it as good husbandry practices. I'd love to have a tang, but no way in h3ll am I ever going to try to keep one in my 38 gal (or my 80 gal for that matter). I tried it once when I was a newbie (against the advice of this and other resources) and I ended up killing the fish.

In regards to the corals vs. fish argument: you can frag large corals. Fish you cannot. Well, at least not if you want to keep the fish alive. :wink:

Shane

 

[dizzy]

Shane,

I agree with you 100% about the suitable husbandry. I just don't think (as some would suggest) that you have to keep a 2" imperator angel in a 300-gallon tank from the get go. I think about 99% of us get in this hobby by keeping fish in less than optimal size tanks for the adults. Many of us get hooked and upgrade to larger systems as we learn to love and appreciate the marinelife we are keeping. Some do not, but some fish get eaten in the wild too. Mother Nature has created a sustainable abundance if managed correctly.

I have a thought or two on taking an exacto knife and slicing up your price leather or colt corals. The first is that sometimes it can kill them if done incorrectly. The second is that some people may view this as inhumane and simply refuse to do. Instead they let the corals grow into each other and may the best man win. Point is that we will never run out of reasons to attack the marine hobby. You need to educate yourself as much as possible and make choices you feel comfortable with.

 

[Anonymous]

I agree you don't have to keep the 2" imperator angel in a 300-gallon tank from the get go. However you need to be realistic. Things happen. What happens if you can't afford that 300 gallon aquarium in a year or two. What do you do with the fish? You have to be careful when buying something and plan to "upgrade" in the future. For all of us that "upgrade" has been delayed/cancled.