Tang Police - Info needed

[SPC]

Posted by Dizzy:

The Conscientious Marine Aquarist by Robert Fenner

I next got out Baensch Marine Atlas by Debelius and Baensch.

-Dizzy, I can tell you the first thing that jumps out at me, all these guys livings are dependent on the aquarium industry. If they were to say for instance " all tangs should be kept in a 300 gallon aquarium" they would be cutting their own throats, less hobbiest = less book sales. Their credibility would also drop amongst most fish keepers due to the "I'm going to do it anyway" or "my cousins friend has kept a yellow tang in a 29 for years" mentality. I think that this fear of loosing credibility could also make these authors take a more conservative stance for example, its better to keep them in a 50 than a 29.
Steve

 

[Contender]

Oh, I see...so the proper tank size for keeping a tang depends on their behavior. Phew, glad we cleared that one up. It wasn't health, lifespan, or even growth all along....it is that the tangs behave normally. Well, I'm off to convert my swimming pool into a saltwater tank. Would hate to see my tang act "a little off" when placed in a glass box in a living room in someone's house miles and miles away from the nearest ocean.

 

[Anonymous]

Contender, your post is a perfect example why I don't respond to these threads.

Oh, I see...so the proper tank size for keeping a tang depends on their behavior. Phew, glad we cleared that one up.

I never said that. I said that IN MY EXPERIENCE, behaviour of tangs changes when placed in larger tanks. IN MY OPINION, after seeing tangs in huge tanks, I feel that is the best environment for them AND it is more enjoyable for me a fish keeper to see them in that environment.

It wasn't health, lifespan, or even growth all along....it is that the tangs behave normally

What an asinine comment and a total misrepresentation of my post. I didn't say "behave normally". I said "act naturally". "Act naturally" means the freedom to swim more than the length of their body without having to turn around. "Act naturally" means not sharing habitat with species that they are constantly at odds with. "Act naturally" means not being in poor health and stunted growth due to increased stress from the environment they are placed in. If the tang is allowed to exist in the optimum captive environment, the health, lifespan, and growth of these fish will be a given, and not once did I say these conditions weren't important.

Would hate to see my tang act "a little off" when placed in a glass box in a living room in someone's house miles and miles away from the nearest ocean.

Yet another straw man. I haven't read any of your other posts, but I have a strong suspicion you meet one of my criteria for "small tank syndrome".

Brian

 

[BCReefer]

Another Tang forum another flame war. To bad the original request by Mouse was lost on most people. You should offer your opinion and leave it at that. Anyone who is really interested in the hobby will do what they think is best regardless of the flames.

Mouse,

I am by no means an expert of Tangs. I don't have any now but I did in the beginning, when I did not know better. If I was a new person to the hobby looking at starting a marine tank I would want the article written in a manner that educates but in way for people to understand. Something like the life and times of Henry the Tang. Start off with his birth and go through his life up to 5 years. Give some examples of everyday life. I.e. a 5 year old in a crib etc.

The person reading it will learn what he needs and he will have a picture in his head about what he is getting into. If you get into anything like "YOU CAN'T DO THIS", then they will just disregard what you are saying.

I will gladly volunteer my time to read as a person who is looking into getting tangs. I know someday I will get a bigger tank so I will/may buy one.

Cheers,
Patrick

 

[EmilyB]

You can take this article a bunch of different ways, even make it a multipart article.

1. Reasons for not having a tang in a small tank.

2. Signs that your tang is stressed do to tank size.

3. Options for people who have a tang in a small tank (could be due to bad advise).

4. Fish you can house in smaller tanks.

5. proper conditions for housing a tang

of course you can subsitute any large fish for tang

Although I myself came through the tank upgrade process for my tangs, 8O , I kind of liked this approach.

And actually Mouse, in retrospect, based on my experiences, I would say 100g would be a waste of money, actually, for a long term tang tank.

I never dreamed of buying a small marine tank, (although I have some setup now..) We started with a 72g.

About a year ago, I can honestly say the behavior of the two tangs (Yellow and Kole) changed. They began to do "sprints" across the length of that 4' tank.

They were subsequently upgraded to the 155g. At this point, it is a very relaxing tank, and a future upgrade is planned. Hindsight is always twenty/twenty, and I suppose I would have bought the 300g if I could turn back the clock.

A bit off topic maybe, but one thing that REALLY infuriates me is people who starve their fish, to underfeed the reef tank, and fail to realize the immense nutritional requirements of tangs. Tangs don't really belong in their reef tanks at all if this is the case.

With regards to my previous comment, it's good to educate, but I just don't want tang owners to be afraid to post questions here, for fear they will be pounced on for not having a 300g (or whatever). Appreciably, we all lose patience once in a while with people who show no appreciable heedance (is that a word?) of any advice.

This hobby IS evolving, and I think the average newbie today is very much more informed than the newbie even three years ago. That is a good thing.

 

[Anonymous]

Excellent post, Emily! I heartily agree. I think a 75 is probably the smallest tank for the kole, and perhaps the yellow. Of course bigger is better. Taking into account the quantities of rock many people put in the tank, and the sand taking up space, a 100 is the smallest I recommend for any other tang, and most of the time it is welll over that. I have seen too many in large tanks and they aren't "hanging around". I was considering a Naso or Sohal for the tank I am going to be setting up, but am thinking as fast/far as these guys go even a 10' tank like I am in process of planning may be too small. Figure they are "fast movers", the jets of the fish, 1/5 the tank length is taken up by body length. They can't get going too fast, too far. I haven't ruled it out , yet, but am on my way.

 

[naesco]

Dizzy asks the question
How can I tel if my yellow tang is behaving normally like it is supposed to act.
The answer is:

If your tang is sprinting back and forth the length of your tank you tang is behaving normally.

If your tang is kind of hanging around, takes a few quick one foot bursts of swimming there is probably too much coral and rock in your tank for a tang or your tank is too short (too small ) for a tang.
If you inherited a tang and have a small tang the best you can do is pile the rocks in the middle of the tank to allow the tang to at least swim in a 'circular' manner around the tank.

BrianD you need to ignore comments from ignorant people. Life is so much better that way.

 

[dizzy]

naesco,

Are you absolutely certain that the sprinting behavior is normal? I have eight tangs in five different show/ display tanks and none of them sprint back and forth along the glass. Two are in a 75, one is in a 100 long, one in a 100 shallow, two are in a 36"diameter cylinder tank, and two are in a 220. About the only time I see any sprinting is when I feed and they try to out-compete with angels, wrasses and the like. The two in the cylinder tank have unlimited swimming opportunity and they do swim laps, but never in the all out sprint you describe.

Since the beginning of this thread I find myself spending half of my time watching the tangs from both near and far. I am beginning to feel a little guilty about the two in the 75, but the rest have decent swimming room, with the possible exception of the yellow in the 100 slim which is cramed with rock and corals. In all honesty the two in the 75 seem to be pretty content, but I know they would be better off in larger quarters and I will make plans to move them.

All my tangs have great color and definitely no lateral line or hhe. The sailfin in the 160 cylinder stay skinny but he may need worming for internal parasites. Any suggestions?

The more I read on reefs the more I realize marine fishkeeping is a privilege and not a right. I find it harder and harder each day to try and get people into the marine hobby, which is not good for business. I think we may just start pushing the freshwater a little harder and keep the marine section around as sort of a free zoo for the white trash.

 

[Contender]

BrianD you need to ignore comments from ignorant people. Life is so much better that way.

If it is me you are speaking of, then I agree (I am ignorant of the topics at hand, but not an "ignorant person" though). I do not know what the requirements for a tang is, nor do I claim to know. You may very well be right that a tang needs x amount of gallons, but the truth of the matter is that many of you are just as ignorant as I...the only difference is that you are taking the populist stance, and I am questioning it. Notice I have never said once whether I think a tang belongs in a big tank or a small one...I am just a hobbyist, not a scientist or researcher...I do not hold the answer. All I have done is question your criteria. I am sorry if you were offended by a little sarcasm...It just seems worth being sarcastic about using such arbitrary proof as "acting naturally" as your guidelines for choosing tank size. I did not realize you included such things as health, growth and lifespan in the definition of "Acting naturally" especially when your post was about the way tangs behaved on the reef vs. in a small tank.

Now, if anybody could provide me with any evidence or proof that a tang is more healthy, lives longer, or grows faster in a 125g as opposed to a 30g tank, please post it for all to see and benefit from. I guarantee that all it takes is one piece of founded evidence to shut up all those who question you forever. Until then, consider your views just as ignorant as mine (perhaps a bit more sympathetic, though).

 

[dizzy]

SPC (Steve)
:evil:
I was rereading your earlier comments about the suggested tank size for tangs that was made by Fenner and by Debelius. I've been involved with the marine hobby for over 17-years. I have met both Bob Fenner and Helmut Debelius and I have corresponded with both via e-mail. I just want you to know that to suggest that either one of them would intentionally print false information to sell books is laughable at best.

Both Bob and Helmut are accomplished aquarium keepers, divers, photographers, and well respected authors. I think you owe them both an appology.

 

[EmilyB]

If your tang is sprinting back and forth the length of your tank you tang is behaving normally.

I think what I meant as "sprinting" was large tangs ( 2years old then) trying to dash across the tank and running into a wall....almost similar to startling.

In the large tank they cruise at various speeds. In, out and thru the rocks. They absolutely love branch coral archways.....guess they feel noble..

And I am merely providing "my perception" of their behavior, as compared to previous behavior in a smaller tank. But since I am a pretty humane kind of person :lol: I'd like to think it's a good perception....

 

[dizzy]

Emily

Thanks for your input. I would much rather hear most of these comments about keeping tangs from people who actually keep them, than from people who had one once, or might want one one day. Several of my tangs are in large tanks and I had four of them for over 4-years. ( the naso is new) All of my tangs 2-yellow, 2-purple, RS desjardini, black, blonde naso, and chevron are in reef tanks. I feed them nori, marine supreme, live brine, and good old Pablo's New Life foods which they love. I have never noticed any of them pick at my corals. I see them mill around and just sort of cruise, but only in high gear when feeding. Perhaps that sprining is a predator avoidance response, and I quit keeping sharks about 12-years ago. My tangs get on good together. my 3 cents

 

[Contender]

Briand,

I do not know why you assumed that I was only speaking of you when I criticized "behaving normally." I can assure you that there was more people than you using this criteria to back their beliefs.

Furthermore, perhaps you meant to say "act naturally" in your post...but I assure you those words were never mentioned. They weren't even implicated. You made no mention of anything other then behavior....Don't accuse me of distorting your views when I assure you I did nothing of the sort. Don't blame me if you left some important things you meant to say out of your post. I read posts, but I don't read minds.

As far as the "small tank syndrome" goes...I wouldn't be calling others people comments asinine when yours are just as guilty of the same crime. I assure you, if you HAD read any of my previous posts, you would know I don't fall into this category. I am not a supporter of tangs in small tanks. Just because we could keep a tang in a small tank doesn't mean we should...I believe in this, but I don't expect others to follow the same maxim. Thus why I desire more profound evidence related to tang keeping. How can you expect to convince all those who don't agree with you, when you proclaim all who question your arbitrary evidence as trying to "rationalize" keeping tangs? I'm sorry, I didn't realize everyone had to blindly follow your lead.

 

[Anonymous]

Contender,
Relax. Acting naturally and behaving normaly, to me :wink:, are one in the same. I don't see how you can have one without the other. I notice that most of the tangs you keep are of the smaller variety and aren't in the sprinter catagory. That is another trap people fall into. Grouping all of these fish into the same catagory when they belong in different ones. They have a different body shape for a reason. Some are more siuted to the 75-180 tank size, some aren't. I can't imagine anyone keeping a Vlamingi in a 180. The fish would take 1/2 the tank. The yellow in ther would be hapy as a pig in a poke.

 

[Mouse]

Brian,

What is the minimum size tank that you would recommend for a 2.5" yellow tang to be kept by itself?

This is the sort of question i want to stope being asked. What the question should be is, "i would like to keep a tang, what do i read" :lol:

no sereously, and more realistically it should be a species desicion, and not a age decision.

 

[Mouse]

i have found with all fish, the most obvious form of unrest is when they go up and down, up and down really really fast in the corner. A happy tang just cruzes, gently bobbing up and down as they flap their wings. Not to mention a happy fish is also a very fat fish. :wink:

 

[SPC]

Posted by Dizzy:
SPC (Steve)

I was rereading your earlier comments about the suggested tank size for tangs that was made by Fenner and by Debelius. I've been involved with the marine hobby for over 17-years. I have met both Bob Fenner and Helmut Debelius and I have corresponded with both via e-mail. I just want you to know that to suggest that either one of them would intentionally print false information to sell books is laughable at best.

-Really, and because you have met them and spoken to them via e mail you feel that they have the answers to the tank size issue? I have both of these authors books and in fact have recommended Fenners book many times on this board. What criteria do you suppose they used to make their decisions on tank size? Let me tell you what I think is laughable, recommending a tang be kept in a 50 gallon tank.

Both Bob and Helmut are accomplished aquarium keepers, divers, photographers, and well respected authors.

-And so are alot of other people (minus the author part) that would disagree totally with their opinions about tank size and tangs.

I think you owe them both an appology.

-Oh come now dizzy, I gave a couple of possibilities for why they might have recommended such rediculous tank sizes IMO. If you will notice I also pointed out this possibility:

I think that this fear of loosing credibility could also make these authors take a more conservative stance for example, its better to keep them in a 50 than a 29.

What I was saying here was that their recommendations might be based on the fact that if they go to overboard with tank size, people might not listen to anything they say, and both men have alot of valuable information to share with the aquarium world. They might figure that it is better to keep a tang in a 50 as opposed to a 29 and thus are trying to reach a happy median. It is the same thing many of us do on these boards, we settle for what we consider to be less than optimal tank size in our recommendations figuring, well its better than the smaller tank.
Steve

 

[dizzy]

(SPC) Steve

I have been reading books by Helmut Debelius and articles in FAMA by Bob Fenner for far more years than I care to remember. They both paid their dues (and spent most of their lives) by doing years of practical research and hands on experience both in aquariumkeeping and in the field. Very few people have spent more time diving and photographing in the Red Sea than Helmut.

When you have the body of work that both men do there is always the possiblity that some of the information is incorrect. Julian's Reef Notes Revisited comes to mind.

To suggest that either of these well-respected authors would intentionally mislead the readers, for any reason, just doesn't hold water. I hope they both see this thread. If they aren't :evil: then I think they will be

 

[Anonymous]

From Contender

Furthermore, perhaps you meant to say "act naturally" in your post...but I assure you those words were never mentioned. They weren't even implicated

From my original post

Shouldn't we STRIVE to provide a home that the fish acts naturally?

(emphasis added)

Obviously reading comprehension isn't one of your strong points, as is evidenced by your ability to misinterpret other people and argue points that you created in your mind.

I didn't realize everyone had to blindly follow your lead

Nor do I, and didn't expect that of anyone. Opinions were asked and given. You, on the other hand, do not offer opinions. Instead, you manipulate and distort other people's opinions instead of offering your own.

Who the hell knows whether fish have or need "quality of life"? Who can say that a fish can't live its life in a 30 gallon tank when it gets 15 inches long? I will try to make my point clearer in my original post. I have seen tangs in 55 gallon tanks. I have seen the same fish moved to several thousand gallon tanks. Fish that rarely moved in the small tank never stopped swimming in their new homes. To me, it was so much more enjoyable to sit and watch these fish swim around than to see them hover in one corner of a small tank. Were they healthy in the small tank? I think so. But, in my mind, it isn't right to put a large fish in a small tank. I can't say it any simpler than that. Different people will offer different explanations and reasons why there should be minimum tank sizes. Those are the arguments they believe in. They may or may not be mine.

Bottom line, I never offered anything I said as other than my opinion. If you don't like it, that doesn't matter to me, but please refrain from restating my opinions as if I am demanding a course of action by others.

Brian

 

[Anonymous]

I always get a little itchy when I see tang police threads. The idea of some people telling others 'the way it is' is a little unnerving to me.
What I think gets forgotten in the discussion of how big a tank do I need for a tang (or whatever) is the learning curve of the new hobbiest. They go to the store, talk to the people there, often even read a short book on the subject. They then buy a smallish tank to see if they really like the hobby and minimize their initial cash outlay. They buy an entry level system. Then they make some mistakes and kill some stuff and decide if they want to go on, expand or quit.
Is there really anyone here who can say they did not make mistakes and kill stuff? Is it really fair for any of us to get upset at people for making mistakes while they learn?
I also think that people wouldkill the same amount of animals starting with a large tank or a small one.
No matter how much people read and do research the will make mistakes when they actually begin to do. That is the way it is with any hobby - you make lots of mistakes at the beginning.

RR