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What happened to www.liveaquaria.com
- Thread starter Money Pit
- Start date
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Jamdree,
I'm sorry to be the one to reveal there is no Santa Claus but our trade out of the S.E.Asian region has been based on cyanide fish collecting since 1960!
The full variety of fish is simply not available netcaught...so, the corporate response has been to just forge ahead without re-training fisherman. To buy only netcaught fish and do the right thing would decrease sales...and hey, this is a FISH selling company we're talking about, not an environmental organization that stands for something.
It creates an unfair advantage for the few doing it right and makes it that much harder to sell netcaught fish. Especially when a cyanide caught one can seduce the unsuspecting public ith a cheaper, chemically produced one based on cheating fisherman.
Steve @ AMDA
I'm sorry to be the one to reveal there is no Santa Claus but our trade out of the S.E.Asian region has been based on cyanide fish collecting since 1960!
The full variety of fish is simply not available netcaught...so, the corporate response has been to just forge ahead without re-training fisherman. To buy only netcaught fish and do the right thing would decrease sales...and hey, this is a FISH selling company we're talking about, not an environmental organization that stands for something.
It creates an unfair advantage for the few doing it right and makes it that much harder to sell netcaught fish. Especially when a cyanide caught one can seduce the unsuspecting public ith a cheaper, chemically produced one based on cheating fisherman.
Steve @ AMDA
cortez marine,
So who is to blame for this problem? Liveaquaria.com for doing business with the L.A. impoters (let me point out that almost all LFS's in the USA, Cananda, Mexico and Europe also do business with them), the impoters, the cheating fisherman, forums like this that endorse e-tailers that fork out the money to become sponsors (Marine Depot, Exotic Fish and Premium Aquatics), or the hobbist who creates a market for the fish?
BTW I have never had any problem with the fish or service I have received from liveaquaria.com; and they do have a retail outlet in Rhinelander WI.
One more question who are the "clean chains of fish delivery"?
So who is to blame for this problem? Liveaquaria.com for doing business with the L.A. impoters (let me point out that almost all LFS's in the USA, Cananda, Mexico and Europe also do business with them), the impoters, the cheating fisherman, forums like this that endorse e-tailers that fork out the money to become sponsors (Marine Depot, Exotic Fish and Premium Aquatics), or the hobbist who creates a market for the fish?
BTW I have never had any problem with the fish or service I have received from liveaquaria.com; and they do have a retail outlet in Rhinelander WI.
One more question who are the "clean chains of fish delivery"?
Sorry i cant go out and catch my own..besides you need a permit for that...I dont agree with cyanide poisoning either..i know the MAC certification helps, but sh*t, most places arent certified...the LFS in Reno is probably not certified but i will continue to buy from there...this is really touchy and you know that...so MC whats your solution to buying fish???
So many saltwater fish have life spans of 10 years or more if properly cared for; unfortunately, since many don't educate themselves on the species beforehand, it leads to repeat purchases which may be good for the industry but not the reefs or the environment these fish come from.
It sucks that money has to be such a crutch at times to accompishing the right things........ :?
It sucks that money has to be such a crutch at times to accompishing the right things........ :?
I have no solution, I agree with you. I'm really just pointing out the hypocrisy of selectively condemning one company for it's business practices while we all support others that are also guilty, which with considerable certainty includes members of the AMDA and sponsors of RDO.
I think it is important to point out that Steve owns a collecting/wholsale business that competes with the "big importers" and his opinions are likely motivated by his own desire to gain market share. I would think that one who is so concerned about the welfare of the oceans reefs and fish might advocate captive bred ONLY, or better yet the end of the hobby altogether. Let's face it the fish are better off in the ocean.
I think it is important to point out that Steve owns a collecting/wholsale business that competes with the "big importers" and his opinions are likely motivated by his own desire to gain market share. I would think that one who is so concerned about the welfare of the oceans reefs and fish might advocate captive bred ONLY, or better yet the end of the hobby altogether. Let's face it the fish are better off in the ocean.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Dear M.P..
What tank raised fish?
The clowns and dottybacks comprise 98% of the list.
Don't be silly...and excuse me for being clean and trying. Thats why I got elected to AMDA.
Perhaps the real challenge is to make it easier for people to be honest by striving to clean it up before the dirty side shuts us all down. It sure won't be shut down if we become apologists for the cyanide trade and sell out to the lure of cheap internet fish. After all. Thats the real reason to defend them isn't it?
Steve
What tank raised fish?
The clowns and dottybacks comprise 98% of the list.
Don't be silly...and excuse me for being clean and trying. Thats why I got elected to AMDA.
Perhaps the real challenge is to make it easier for people to be honest by striving to clean it up before the dirty side shuts us all down. It sure won't be shut down if we become apologists for the cyanide trade and sell out to the lure of cheap internet fish. After all. Thats the real reason to defend them isn't it?
Steve
You miss my point, I make no apology for the industry or their collection methods, and I do not object to you "being clean and trying", it's your hypocrisy that bothers me. Regarless of you collection methods, wouldn't it be a "higher, nobler agenda" to try and develope a method of raising a wider variety of aquarium fish in captivity?
"Currently ORA is attempting to culture a number of species that have not been captive-bred or have been available on a very limited basis."
If you're that concerned about the effects the industry has on the ocean, you wouldn't offer clowns, dottybacks or gobies when tank-raised fish are available.
Do you suppose it's cheaper to net catch fish or develope methods to raise them successfully in captivity? Don't talk to me about the "lure of cheap internet fish".
BTW price has never been an issue when selecting fish for my tank.
"Currently ORA is attempting to culture a number of species that have not been captive-bred or have been available on a very limited basis."
If you're that concerned about the effects the industry has on the ocean, you wouldn't offer clowns, dottybacks or gobies when tank-raised fish are available.
Do you suppose it's cheaper to net catch fish or develope methods to raise them successfully in captivity? Don't talk to me about the "lure of cheap internet fish".
BTW price has never been an issue when selecting fish for my tank.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Money...may I call you money?
Millionaires invest millions in tank raised fish aquaculture and rarely if ever make any money. The millionaires doing it already have other millions if they fail....not to mention millions to subsidize them to keep them going.
It is not a a middle class concern that one is hypocritical for not engaging in. Its silly to talk like that.
The simplistic call for tank raised or nothing is premature. Wait til they get at least 5 % of the species list down and then call on all responsible dealers to sell only the small list. They'll all be out of business in a few months though so they probably won't do it.
I sell tank raised fish also money. They comprise a small portion of the availability required to pay rent and electricity. Too bad the craft of raising tank raised fish is so much in its infancy...still.
Post again in 5-10 years when it will be more relevant.
Steve
Millionaires invest millions in tank raised fish aquaculture and rarely if ever make any money. The millionaires doing it already have other millions if they fail....not to mention millions to subsidize them to keep them going.
It is not a a middle class concern that one is hypocritical for not engaging in. Its silly to talk like that.
The simplistic call for tank raised or nothing is premature. Wait til they get at least 5 % of the species list down and then call on all responsible dealers to sell only the small list. They'll all be out of business in a few months though so they probably won't do it.
I sell tank raised fish also money. They comprise a small portion of the availability required to pay rent and electricity. Too bad the craft of raising tank raised fish is so much in its infancy...still.
Post again in 5-10 years when it will be more relevant.
Steve
No you may not call me money. MP or Money Pit please.
I guess what you're saying is it is to expensive to do the "noble" thing and invest in devoloping techniques to make tank raised fish more "relevant" in the hobby. I'm just not sure what you mean when you speak of "uncompromising code of environmental ethics" and "that higher, nobler agenda".
BTW there are people on this forum who have successfully raised marine fish. Those who have maybe you can let us know how many millions it cost.
I guess what you're saying is it is to expensive to do the "noble" thing and invest in devoloping techniques to make tank raised fish more "relevant" in the hobby. I'm just not sure what you mean when you speak of "uncompromising code of environmental ethics" and "that higher, nobler agenda".
BTW there are people on this forum who have successfully raised marine fish. Those who have maybe you can let us know how many millions it cost.
I guess what you're saying is it is to expensive to do the "noble" thing and invest in devoloping techniques to make tank raised fish more "relevant" in the hobby. I'm just not sure what you mean when you speak of "uncompromising code of environmental ethics" and "that higher, nobler agenda".
See what John Brandt had to say over on your Farmed Fish List thread. It's very true. It's nobler to pursue net caught fish than aquacultured fish for the long term sustainability and health of the reefs.
BTW there are people on this forum who have successfully raised marine fish. Those who have maybe you can let us know how many millions it cost.
Raising 100 clownfish a year in a hobby tank is a far cry from providing hundreds of thousands for the marine ornamentals industry. To raise fish commercially is a HUGE financial undertaking, with profits not being realized for years if ever. Few people have the capital to keep an operation going in the negative for several years.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Money P.
Money invested in aquaculture for financial return is...now let me get this straight...'noble' while striving, struggling and doing without cyanide fish is less so?
The clownfish factories are business of course...and welcome ones at that. But their scope is a bit too limited to declare them to be the alternative just yet.
Putting poor fisherman out of work who collect with nets is a noble concern to some but not to me. Responsible wild caught fish employ thousands of fisherfolk who would otherwise have greater impacts on the reefs.
The Aquaculture that works so far is the produce of three huge investments by already rich white men. Two of those investments just merged to form a combined mega investment to give ORA a run for their considerable money.
Watching the giants duel over the Nemo dollar cannot be the extent of our environmental concerns or responsibility.
Steve
Money invested in aquaculture for financial return is...now let me get this straight...'noble' while striving, struggling and doing without cyanide fish is less so?
The clownfish factories are business of course...and welcome ones at that. But their scope is a bit too limited to declare them to be the alternative just yet.
Putting poor fisherman out of work who collect with nets is a noble concern to some but not to me. Responsible wild caught fish employ thousands of fisherfolk who would otherwise have greater impacts on the reefs.
The Aquaculture that works so far is the produce of three huge investments by already rich white men. Two of those investments just merged to form a combined mega investment to give ORA a run for their considerable money.
Watching the giants duel over the Nemo dollar cannot be the extent of our environmental concerns or responsibility.
Steve
When it all comes down it is simple money. Why should company X be forced to change their methods of selling fish simply because of how their suppliers (fisherman) use the juice. The only way for company X to even have an interest on how their harvests of fish are obtained is by us the hobbyist and organizations like AMDA, MAC, CORL, etc... The pressure will hopefully become strong enough and thus sway these companies to do the right thing. To think simply because you have never had any problems with your tank and thus simply rule out the use of juice on the fish from company X is ridiculous.
The aquacultured specimens will never be able to quench the thirst of the hobby only put strain and pressure on importers, collectors to do the tright thing. Don't get me wrong the aquaculturers are some awesome peeps, but to say that they can solve the issues at hand is naive IMHO. The only hope the industry has is for people to realize how fragile the ecosystem is and try and preserve the reefs for future collection as these are our renewable resources if used correctly.
The aquacultured specimens will never be able to quench the thirst of the hobby only put strain and pressure on importers, collectors to do the tright thing. Don't get me wrong the aquaculturers are some awesome peeps, but to say that they can solve the issues at hand is naive IMHO. The only hope the industry has is for people to realize how fragile the ecosystem is and try and preserve the reefs for future collection as these are our renewable resources if used correctly.
I'm not suggesting one company would be able to supply all the fish for this hobby but every hundred tank raised would make a difference.Raising 100 clownfish a year in a hobby tank is a far cry from providing hundreds of thousands for the marine ornamentals industry.
Putting poor fisherman out of work who collect with nets is a noble concern to some but not to me.
That's because you sell net caught fish, those that sell cyanide caught fish are not concerned with putting their fisherman out of business either.
If you are going to condemn your industry for not following your lead and your methods, you open yourself and your methods to the same condemnation.
All I can say is thank goodness for the rich "white man" and the aquacultured specimens they bring to the hobby.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
m.p.
The damage to wild clownfish populations that arises from the taking of wild anemones to house the tank raised ones is considerable and quite possibly enough to negate conservation benefit!!
[ No anemones left...no clownfish left NOR subsequent generations!]
Pause before hailing victory of even this one area.
Its a trade-off and a poorly understood one by a trade needing an image make-over bad enough to turn a blind eye to this fact.
Tell your rich white heros to produce T.R.anemones to go with the T.R. clowns to make it an 'all clean combo...'
Or...cease and desist keeping all clown anemones...
Steve
ps. Condemning irresponsible practices in the trade are nothing new. It sets a guideline to work towards and make ourselves less destructive to coral reefs and the fisherman dependant on them.
PS. Did you really equate defending legal fishermans livelihood with cyanide fishermans livlihood?
The damage to wild clownfish populations that arises from the taking of wild anemones to house the tank raised ones is considerable and quite possibly enough to negate conservation benefit!!
[ No anemones left...no clownfish left NOR subsequent generations!]
Pause before hailing victory of even this one area.
Its a trade-off and a poorly understood one by a trade needing an image make-over bad enough to turn a blind eye to this fact.
Tell your rich white heros to produce T.R.anemones to go with the T.R. clowns to make it an 'all clean combo...'
Or...cease and desist keeping all clown anemones...
Steve
ps. Condemning irresponsible practices in the trade are nothing new. It sets a guideline to work towards and make ourselves less destructive to coral reefs and the fisherman dependant on them.
PS. Did you really equate defending legal fishermans livelihood with cyanide fishermans livlihood?
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Home Depot has a one year guarantee on their plants.
Sure they lose some...but they gain so much more for the PR benefit [ and other departments that carry them as a company] that it make business sense.
Some internet fish flyers are big enough and rich enough to play the same game.
If I had their capital, I would use 1 % of it to supply Indonesia and the Philippines w/ nets and training...and solve the problem.
But...pointing out the assets and capabilities of wealthy money pots doesn't take courage nor talent.
Comon guys...ask them to buy nets for the fisherman and get this on a constructive track.
And excuse me for standing up for the retailer...the storefront retailer who started you all. Without the storefront LFS the industry dies. W/out the 'fly by nite trade'...nothing...they are not missed.
Dogs don't need ticks...but ticks sure need dogs to carry them.
Sincerely, Steve
supporting storefront retailers since 1978
Sure they lose some...but they gain so much more for the PR benefit [ and other departments that carry them as a company] that it make business sense.
Some internet fish flyers are big enough and rich enough to play the same game.
If I had their capital, I would use 1 % of it to supply Indonesia and the Philippines w/ nets and training...and solve the problem.
But...pointing out the assets and capabilities of wealthy money pots doesn't take courage nor talent.
Comon guys...ask them to buy nets for the fisherman and get this on a constructive track.
And excuse me for standing up for the retailer...the storefront retailer who started you all. Without the storefront LFS the industry dies. W/out the 'fly by nite trade'...nothing...they are not missed.
Dogs don't need ticks...but ticks sure need dogs to carry them.
Sincerely, Steve
supporting storefront retailers since 1978
COrtez: Will you offer a 10 day post delivery live warranty if you knew the fish were caught with cyanide?
I think one of the biggest misconceptions in this hobby is that all cyanide fish die. You all need to understand that it IS possible (and highly probable) to have healthy cyanide caught fish. Fish that you can put nice guarantees on. However, it is NOT possible to have a healthy reef where cyanide is being used.
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