Hey beaslbob!

[Tackett]

The old tank was done with, no water changes. Bunches additives were used, idoine, calcium, magnesum, etc etc. Spent an assload of money on them. Used tap water. Filter was a Tidepool biowheel, and magdrive 5 for return. I had a seaclone skimmer 100. (that I want to replace btw.) and you can see the overflow box in both pics.

The new tank has the same equipment. Only difference is. Now I do weekly 10 gallon water changes with oceanic salt once a week (or two weeks if im lazy, but never gone beyond 2 weeks) All with RO/DI water from wal-mart @ .60 a gallon. Vaccum out the substrate during changes, Top off with Kalk. (need to go with a two part soon as my clam is starting to deplete it quickly.) Hair algae dissapeared.

 

[hillbilly]

The old tank was done with, no water changes. Bunches additives were used, idoine, calcium, magnesum, etc etc. Spent an assload of money on them. Used tap water. Filter was a Tidepool biowheel, and magdrive 5 for return. I had a seaclone skimmer 100. (that I want to replace btw.) and you can see the overflow box in both pics.

The new tank has the same equipment. Only difference is. Now I do weekly 10 gallon water changes with oceanic salt once a week (or two weeks if im lazy, but never gone beyond 2 weeks) All with RO/DI water from wal-mart @ .60 a gallon. Vaccum out the substrate during changes, Top off with Kalk. (need to go with a two part soon as my clam is starting to deplete it quickly.) Hair algae dissapeared.

Hey, it's a big inprovement. When you get better skimming, it should continue to improve. How's your water movement? That can help also. That 29g. looked terrible! Hang in there, great reefs ain't built in a day!

 

[danmhippo]

In the early years of my reef, I've already tried Bob's method, well, maybe not quite so extreme as to his claim of no pumps.

I used to maintain tank with no water change, LOTS of caulerpa, technically, it's 250G worth of caulerpa, there was a period of no skimmers as well.

Although my tank was not as much as a cesspool as Bob's tank pic back in Oct 2004, but the water color is a permanent yellow. The yellowing stain was a by product from the macro algae. It was a thriving tank, no doubt. NO3 and PO4 were low, but definetly not a good tank for SPS and clams.

I had the system going for approximately a year or more, finally couldn't stand the yellow tint, and started to shift toward the "standard", that is with powerful skimming, regular water change....etc.

If Bob's tank is still like the photo taken in Oct. 2004, then suffice to say that his word is not going to be very persuasive.

For all others that wish to have clear blue water, nuance algae free, as well as be able to keep delicate fish/inverts, I would recommend you go with RODI and skimmers.

Dont' get me wrong, I am not saying macro algae is bad. A macro algae tank is the love of mine. I enjoy very much tank full of macros with seahorses. But for all other tanks, there are better and more efficient nutrient export method than just "plant life" alone.

 

[danmhippo]

BTW, when I finally ripped out over 60% of caulerpa from my tank as a gift to my LFS, the amount of caulerpa filled a 33Gal trash bag full. Obviously, my LFS loved me very much from that day on...........

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks danmhippo,
Bob's tacit response in regard to newer photos seem to show this to be true. ...the jury is begining to assemble.

~wings~

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks danmhippo,
Bob's tacit response in regard to newer photos seem to show this to be true. ...the jury is begining to assemble.

~wings~

the original question here was skimmers when using plant life. You don't like my system fine. The jury must also pass judgement on system's like this one. After all it is skimmerless. http://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthr ... did=116386

I especially agree with this quote from that thread:

the coolest aspect of this set up is simplicity. I know 90% of the reefers out there can't get through the day without testing water quality and adding crap to the tank. I however never do anything! I mean anything. I add daily ro/di (which I make)water to replace evaporation and throw two cubes of food or nori into the tank. That's it. I clean the front glass every couple of days and once a month do a 15-20% water change. I would like to do bimonthly changes in the future once I streamline a process (speed).

Call me stupid, but this hobby was a nightmare in the beginning trying to figure everything out, but now it's PURE pleasure. I know there are multiple solutions for everything, this is just mine.

My tank looks about the same as too months ago only the corals have grown some. Will try to get pics. Afterall it is xmass. .

 

[Anonymous]

the original question here was skimmers when using plant life. You don't like my system fine. The jury must also pass judgement on system's like this one. After all is is skimmerless.

Right, but he does say this:

A couple of major points that I think contribute to my success is high turn over and 350 lbs of LR. Keep in mind I have a bare bottom tank also, no CC or DSB. If anyone is thinking of purchasing this sump, don't! I do believe in their theory's but the sump set ups they sell are too expensive. I paid $700 for a 35g sump with 50 lbs of "mircle mud", bio balls. What rip off. I will be building a Bang Guy set up on the next big tank.

and then, in regard to coralline algae:

I did however go without a water change for 6 months last year without incident. However, I noticed my coraline growth ceased to spread. First water change, and it took back off. Go figure.

I especially liked this: :lol:

I can see you throwing me into the pit for a beaslebob bashing....

..just made me chuckle.....seems like you're well known.

All in all, I'm not saying that you can't run a tank without a PS, but it certainly takes more talant, and possibly more cash, according to your link.

~wings~

 

[Anonymous]

Merry Christmas too, beaslbob!

~wings~

 

[ChrisRD]

I add daily ro/di (which I make)water to replace evaporation...

...once a month do a 15-20% water change.

A couple of major points that I think contribute to my success is high turn over and 350 lbs of LR. Keep in mind I have a bare bottom tank also, no CC or DSB.

I have extreme water flow pounding the front bottom of the tank pushing anything unsightly to the back of the tank to collect once a month.

Doesn't sound much like the system you recommend Bob...

The only issue I am battling is phosphates, resulting in a few patches of red slime. (which doesn't look bad)

Sounds like despite excellent husbandry techniques and lots of algae filtration he's still having a bit of a nutrient problem - something a good skimmer could help cure...

 

[Tackett]

Hey, it's a big inprovement. When you get better skimming, it should continue to improve. How's your water movement? That can help also. That 29g. looked terrible! Hang in there, great reefs ain't built in a day!

My water movement has gone way up also. I used to have in the 29 only two powerheads of unknown origin and manufacturer and gph. But Ive sufficed them to be at only 150gph or so. I got rid of those and use them to mix my overnight water for changes. In the big tank, dunno if you can see, but if you look close...On the far left, pointing right. I have a rio 1100 450gph (I think). In the back of the tank, in the middle pointing at the front, is a aquaclear 850 I think it is also around 450-500gph. On the right side pointing left I have a aquaclear 950 @ 900gph. Id like to get one more aquaclear and put it on the right and move the rio to the back, beside the 800 pointing at the front. But I am happy to report that since starting my reef adventures, I have only lost 1 fish, and 1 coral. The fish was a yellow tang (the one in the pics) who died recently and cant quite figure out why. The coral was a small colony polyp.

I am drooling for a new skimmer. Im going to get probably a monster Euroreef and use the old seaclone to make...I dunno...merange or something. (Is that how you spell that??)

 

[Tackett]

Oh yeah and thanks for the compliment. The credit for the improvement is owed to all you guys (and girls), I think it would still be a rectangular sewage without you.

 

[Tackett]

Merry Christmas too, beaslbob!

~wings~

Dang, Im glad we can all be civil around here. 8)

 

[mark78]

Well I feel I must chime in, as I'm halfway on bobs side. Plants are win, hands down. Plants are a GREAT nutrient export. They also require a balance, and a stable environement.

All plants require about 6 things to grow, a form of nitrogen (ammonium, nitrite, nitrate), phosphates, potasium, CO2, and light. FW plants tend to prefer iron, where as marine plants and algaes prefer Calcium.

These must be kept in check and balanced with each other. In the FW world of fast growing plants, you acually have to DOSE phosphates sometimes, can you imagine dosing phosphate in a reef??? Unheard of...
or is it?

I'M NOT SAYING YOU SHOULD ADD PHOSPHATES TO YOUR TANK

But if you have a very high level of N (Nitrates or ammonia), and everything else is balanced, your plants will grow, until they use up all the phosphates in the tank (luckily this is highly unlikley due to the amount of waste from livestock and the amount of food most people feed thier fish)
In THEORY though, as your plants use up the phosphates, the nitrogen may remain very high, and the plants will stop growing. Undesirable algaes such as hair algae and slime algaes will begin to grow instead of your plants and macro algaes. Simpiler life forms, simpiler food. Dosing a small amount of phosphates in this situation, would allow your plants to begin to grow steady and fast again. I'd be willing to bet this would never happen in a reef tank, but in the freshwater world is quite common.

You always want phosphate to be your limiting factor when growing aquatic plants. Phosphates will produce algae much worse then nitrogen.

People say sunlight causes algae. Sunlight only causes algae when there is excessive nutrients in the water.

However...

Actually I never recommend skimming. Much better to spend the money on a larger system to start off with. Simmers can and do have failures and require maintenance

I would never recommend running a salt water tank without a skimmer. There is no better means of removing nutrients from your system, plants will not keep up, they will just remove what the skimmer misses. Skimmers remove protiens, before they have had a chance to break down to ammonia to be processed by the plants. Your plants may grow slower in a well skimmed tank, but that just means less harvesting for you to deal with. Skimmers also add HUGE amounts of disolved O2 to the water, again this is bad for the plants, but the benifits of the tank outweigh that heavily. I have never seen a skimmer fail and cause a problem, any more so then say a powerhead in the tank could do. Unless you would like to refer to a 1970's model in tank skimmer with suction cups to hold it on.

BTW I recommend plant life as opposed to plants.

Thier all plants dude, family Plantae. Even the most basic of algae are in this kingdom and considered plants, the only exception may be Cynobacteria, which is up for discussion.

Obviously skimmers are not necessary.

They are not nesesary, but they are FAR from a waste of money, and highly recommended.

And in the process filter out toxins.

Examples? References regarding this one? With the some minor element acceptions (nothing I would call "toxic"). I have not heard of this.

I use base rock and silica play sand.

Yes it is all the same after a month or two. There are however many benifits to using live rock, such as its porusmess, weight, stacking abilities, natural look, plant life and faura that come with it. Livesand is ok for fauna, but not worth the extra cost and hassle IMO. I have used silica sand as well with no ill results.

With salt systems using algaes as plant life some circulation seems to be beneficial.

Water is clear, very very little algae (cleanup twice per year), no filters, no circulation,

Make up your mind, circulation or not? Circulation is KEY in any aquarium. In my book, good flow and circulation is the cornerstone of a healthy tank. If you do not have good circulation in your tank, you will develop nutrient sinks, areas of uneven tempature and pH. A lack of good circulation is a sure fire way to be unsuccessful.

But in my systems, it was the addition of plant life and soley the addition of plant life that allowed the fish and corals to live for years and years.

This should be rephrased as "plant life was the only thing that kept my fish alive for years and years". A salt water tank with no circulation, no water changes, some plants, and nothing else is a disaster waiting to happen.

And most FW even planted have much more equipment and maintenance required than mine.

My FW tank has gravel, a canister filter, 2 powerheads, and a CO2 regulator/tank. Some day my reef will have a skimmer, a heater, ozone, a chiller, CO2 regulator and tank, and calcium reactor. Are all these nessesary? No but they sure do make life a lot easier.

But a powerhead or a totally enclosed filter is much safer than external sumps/refugiums and the like.

Very much the opposite when done right. Suction cups fail, Powerheads fall, animals get sucked into them, they add heat to the water more so then external, and since they are in the tank, if they malfunction, they can take a tank out. Ask anyone who has had a run in with a RIO powerhead.

All you need is an overflow failure with an external system. Just as several have reported on these boards.

Most likley due to bad planning. A well planned overflow/sump is not anymore likley to fail then the glass of your tank.

How to you circulate without the use of a pump?
in Fw the plants do it.

Wow that is the most insane thing I have heard of. Plants may move water, but not nearly enough, not even close, a clam moves more water then a plant, a fish moves more water.

The only problem is the noise of the current overflow for the external sump/refug.

Didn't you just get done bashing these and all the problems they cause?

The jury must also pass judgement on system's like this one. After all it is skimmerless. http://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthr ... did=116386

That is also a soft coral tank. I'm sure a many nutrient loving LPS and soft corals would love that, SPS wouldn't do so well in that tank I would hazzard to guess. Beautiful none the less. Skimmers aren't required but sure do help.

ChrisRD
NRF Moderator
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LeBoeuf wrote:
I add daily ro/di (which I make)water to replace evaporation...

LeBoeuf wrote:
...once a month do a 15-20% water change.

LeBoeuf wrote:
A couple of major points that I think contribute to my success is high turn over and 350 lbs of LR. Keep in mind I have a bare bottom tank also, no CC or DSB.

LeBoeuf wrote:
I have extreme water flow pounding the front bottom of the tank pushing anything unsightly to the back of the tank to collect once a month.

Sums it up best. Happy holidays ~

 

[Tackett]

Well I feel I must chime in, as I'm halfway on bobs side. Plants are win, hands down. Plants are a GREAT nutrient export. They also require a balance, and a stable environement.

I disagree, everytime Ive had algae blooms my system has been ANYTHING but stable. The algae appearing was the systems attempt to maintain equilibrium

Thier all plants dude, family Plantae. Even the most basic of algae are in this kingdom and considered plants, the only exception may be Cynobacteria, which is up for discussion.

actually thats not true either, since we are getting technical with the taxonomy, Algae is in the domain Eukarya, In the Kingdom protista, not Plantae, the kingdom protista includes four major groups: the protozoans, the slime molds, the unicellular algae, and the multicellular algae.

Well, as for cyano..and I quote..."The atmosphere was made aerobic by cyanobacteria, a group of bacteria that includes most bacterial photosynthesizers. Originally they were called blue-green algae because of their ability to photosynthesize, but were reclassified when it was found that they are more similar to bacteria, existing as prokaryotic cells. They also can fix nitrogen into organic compounds that can be used in amino acids and nucleic acids. It is believed that the first chloroplasts were ancient cyanobacteria that were taken up by other cells. These bacteria have chlorophyll a and use two photosystems that spilt water and yield oxygen gas, like a plant's photosynthesis. They lack flagella and and can be single, colonial, or multicellular, with a division of labor similar to that which may have produced the first true multicellular species. They are usually present in water that has been polluted, often with phosphates and nitrates from runoff, because they thrive in water that has extra nutrients in it, and often explode in "algal blooms."

So I dont think we can call that plant life, on either acount.



As for everything else, I agree with 90 percent of it. Im just tired of the whole "plant" crap. :twisted:

 

[Tackett]

and cyano is actually classified now as:

Domain Bacteria
Phylum Cyanobacteria
Which are prokaryotes, not eukaryotes as algae is.


The five phyla of bacteria are:
Proteobacteria, Cyanobacteria, Gram-Positive Eubacteria, Spirochetes, and Chlamydiae

 

[Anonymous]

Mark - I agree with what you're saying (except for the algae = plant remark) providing you are desiring an algae filled tank and not corals. I enjoy a macro algae tank more than most but if your end goal is thriving corals then macro algae is just one of many possible tools and could be disasterous if not held in check. The tank shouldn't be tailored around algae growth, it should be the other way around.

I believe a combination of natural filtration systems will give the best chance of a sucessful reef system.

I also believe that marine plants (Mangrove, Turtle Grass, etc.) are decorative but not useful for filtration. The macro algae I believe are useful for the export of Nitrate and Phosphate.

I do not believe Macro Algae effectively removes toxic heavy metals from tap water. It's just too little too late for copper, Zinc, Tin, etc. Although it appears to do a good deed with Aluminum.

I also believe you (Mark) know one heck of a lot about Reef tanks. Glad you joined the discussion.

 

[Tackett]

yeah the removing toxin thing is just out there, stratosphere stuff to me.

 

[Tackett]

Oh yeah, that remark about RIO powerheads.....I have a RIO...should I be scared???

 

[danmhippo]

Hmmm, define toxin.

 

[danmhippo]

Actually, nevermind, it's probably all the other things that an average aquarist cannot test for or do not have access to test them.

OK, now back to Bob..........