NITRATES Question?

[Bucktronix]

im not sure about lengs but mine always looked great while running. i am in the process of setting it up again.

 

[Anonymous]

...

However, as most found out, such systems weren't very good at keeping corals. I invite anyone with a Dutch system to show me a thriving reef tank (photos please). Macroalgae is not a cure-all and usually presents more problems then the solutions it offers.
...

Ok here they are:

http://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthr ... did=116386


http://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthr ... hlight=850


http://www.moyesreef.com/home.html

all with refugiums full of macro algaes and corals including sps types. To qoute from the last site:

After several months of dealing with nitrates in the 15-25 ppm range, the decision was made in'01 to add a refugium.

...

Oh sure, the macroalgae began taking off after awhile and watching the 'pods, worms, and shrimp multiply was absolutely fascinating, but the nitrates didn't budge. For
months. Then one day miraculously, they dropped to practically nothing. I had to do the test several times to make sure it wasn't me. This took exactly half a year

 

[Bucktronix]

yeah im not sure where you are going with this len. i know many people who have some kick ass systems that basicaly run only off of live rock and macros. it's not witchcraft.

 

[Len]

Oh, I'm not saying macroalgae is a bad idea. But relying on macro as your only source of nutrient control (no water changes, no skimmers, no ro/di, no sandbed/mud, etc.) is not a feasible methodology IME/IMO. And in my experience, systems overpopulated with algae don't make for great stoney coral tanks. Macroalgae and refugiums are great ideas though.

beaslbob, all the tanks you referenced are skimmed and employ RO/DI and other forms of nutrient control. They are not anything like the method you endorse, or anything close to a "Dutch" aquarium.

 

[Bucktronix]

i guess i wasnt clear what a dutch system is. i use ro/di, make water changes and use mud in the fudge. i however do not use a skimmer.

 

[Anonymous]

Oh, I'm not saying macroalgae is a bad idea. But relying on macro as your only source of nutrient control (no water changes, no skimmers, no ro/di, no sandbed/mud, etc.) is not a feasible methodology IME/IMO. And in my experience, systems overpopulated with algae don't make for great stoney coral tanks. Macroalgae and refugiums are great ideas though.

beaslbob, all the tanks you referenced are skimmed and employ RO/DI and other forms of nutrient control. They are not anything like the method you endorse, or anything close to a "Dutch" aquarium.

Len:

In this particular thread:

1) the poster was wondering how to reduce nitrates from 80-160ppm.

2). He did not know or had even heard of plant life like macro algaes.

The only method I am endorsing in this particular thread, is the use of plant life to get those nitrates down. Anything else is irrelevant.

To me this is the bottom line for this particular thread:

The poster was not aware of macro algaes.

the poster has high nitrates.

Solution: add plant life and get it thriving.


Tah: I am truely sorry this industry, message boards, and even individual in person discussions result in these tit for tats. I know the addition of plant life will get your nitrates down and keep them down. I went through the same thing with nitrates at your levels also. But somehow local fish stores and these boards seem keep the existance of refugiums and added plant life a secret. I had to research where to get the macros myself. But now locals in our club are absolutely sold and will never start a tank again without a refugium thriving with macros.

While all of my tanks do rely on plant life as the primary means of maintenance, plant life is not the only thing in operation. I do have a diy external filter and sump on my 55g for instance. But with this particualr thread and your particular high nitrates, the addition of plant life will be a very great addition. But you can continue doing water changes and whatever else you are doing also. Just that in my opinion, thriving plant life growth will trump whatever else you are doing. that is the reason I recommend the plant life. without needing to know what you did to have nitrates at those levels. Whatever the reasons, plant life will bring them down.

 

[Len]

beaslbob,

I am merely responding to your advice and disagreeing with it. This has nothing to do with tit-for-tat. We're exchanging ideas. As often as you suggest that "plant"-life is the best solution in nearly every scenario, I will continue to disagree. It is up to others to decide who's opinion to believe. None of this is a personal attack on you. Your advice, however, are persistently regarded as unsound; It is your advice that we're attacking (civilly).

 

[Anonymous]

beaslbob,

I am merely responding to your advice and disagreeing with it. This has nothing to do with tit-for-tat. We're exchanging ideas. As often as you suggest that "plant"-life is the best solution in nearly every scenario, I will continue to disagree. It is up to others to decide who's opinion to believe. None of this is a personal attack on you. Your advice, however, are persistently regarded as unsound; It is your advice that we're attacking (civilly).

not taken as a personal attack

And the exchange is welcome.

Tah: what Len is saying in so many words is:

Plant life to consume nitrates is unsound advice.

I simply disagree with that. Your tank your system. And now at least you have heard another opinion.

 

[Anonymous]

Hey tah532, If you are using the skimmer box make sure the water in the "in" side of the box is level or below the teeth of the box. When mine is above the bottom of the teeth it will not remove the surface scum. May also want to lower the cup some.
Andy

 

[tah532]

Wow, i didnt expect such a full response, but am very glad i posted. Yes i have heard of macroalgae's, refugiums, etc etc... But with just a FOWLR tank i guess i was under the impression that with plenty of liverock, a good skimmer, and a regular maintenance schedule, that nothing else would be needed. I am somewhat curious to learn more about refugiums, but probably wouldnt implement one until i got a larger tank or went with a reef system.

 

[Len]

beaslbob

Actually, I'm not saying adding macroalgae into the system is an unsound advice. What I find unsound/unpreferable is adding a lot of it into the display tank, and also the following rationale:

If you already have a heavy thriving plant life then the nitrate spike could be a good sign. It may mean the plant life is consuming the additional ammonia instead of the nitrates. Therefore preventing a nitrogen cycle. As thing settle down the plant life will conwume the nitrates.

I believe macroalgae and algae in general can lower nitrates and other compounds. I don't believe it is the best solution to add a lot of macroalgae in the display tank for this purpose. For long term success, I would recommend addressing all aspects of nutrient processes, from import (via RO/DI top-off, regular water changes, reduced feedings) to export (via skimming, water changes, sandbeds, algae, etc.).

 

[Anonymous]

Oh, I'm not saying macroalgae is a bad idea. But relying on macro as your only source of nutrient control (no water changes, no skimmers, no ro/di, no sandbed/mud, etc.) is not a feasible methodology IME/IMO. And in my experience, systems overpopulated with algae don't make for great stoney coral tanks. Macroalgae and refugiums are great ideas though.

beaslbob, all the tanks you referenced are skimmed and employ RO/DI and other forms of nutrient control. They are not anything like the method you endorse, or anything close to a "Dutch" aquarium.

Len:

In this particular thread:

1) the poster was wondering how to reduce nitrates from 80-160ppm.

2). He did not know or had even heard of plant life like macro algaes.

The only method I am endorsing in this particular thread, is the use of plant life to get those nitrates down. Anything else is irrelevant.

To me this is the bottom line for this particular thread:

The poster was not aware of macro algaes.

the poster has high nitrates.

Solution: add plant life and get it thriving.


Tah: I am truely sorry this industry, message boards, and even individual in person discussions result in these tit for tats. I know the addition of plant life will get your nitrates down and keep them down. I went through the same thing with nitrates at your levels also. But somehow local fish stores and these boards seem keep the existance of refugiums and added plant life a secret. I had to research where to get the macros myself. But now locals in our club are absolutely sold and will never start a tank again without a refugium thriving with macros.

While all of my tanks do rely on plant life as the primary means of maintenance, plant life is not the only thing in operation. I do have a diy external filter and sump on my 55g for instance. But with this particualr thread and your particular high nitrates, the addition of plant life will be a very great addition. But you can continue doing water changes and whatever else you are doing also. Just that in my opinion, thriving plant life growth will trump whatever else you are doing. that is the reason I recommend the plant life. without needing to know what you did to have nitrates at those levels. Whatever the reasons, plant life will bring them down.

there could be a possible down side with that much plant life. can you please tell us what that mite be.

 

[Bucktronix]

there could be a possible down side with that much plant life. can you please tell us what that mite be.

sure the downside of just adding a ton of macro algae without understanding whats going and the lighting requirments is that the plants could go sexual and basicaly nuke the tank. a fuge should be lite 24/7 to prevent this from happening. also from what i understand cheato doesent go sexual so it's a safer macro to use.

 

[Anonymous]

there could be a possible down side with that much plant life. can you please tell us what that mite be.

sure the downside of just adding a ton of macro algae without understanding whats going and the lighting requirments is that the plants could go sexual and basicaly nuke the tank. a fuge should be lite 24/7 to prevent this from happening. also from what i understand cheato doesent go sexual so it's a safer macro to use.

thanks

I just like people who have a strong opinion on a certain method to explain all possible negative affects.

 

[Anonymous]

beaslbob

Actually, I'm not saying adding macroalgae into the system is an unsound advice. What I find unsound/unpreferable is adding a lot of it into the display tank,

then set up a refugium hopefully in tank. the down side to macros in the display especially with fish present is they will be eaten quickly. But still the system will be better than if the plant life had never been added.

and also the following rationale:

If you already have a heavy thriving plant life then the nitrate spike could be a good sign. It may mean the plant life is consuming the additional ammonia instead of the nitrates. Therefore preventing a nitrogen cycle. As thing settle down the plant life will conwume the nitrates.

It is really simple to understand once you figure out that green plant life prefers to consume ammonia before nitrates. Just that in an established system with aerobic action consuming the ammonia to nitrItes then nitrates, nitrates are all the plant life has to consume. If somthing goes bump in the night like stirring up the sand bed or, new fish, over feeding, something dieing, then the plant life finds the ammonia it prefers and consumes that. And slows its nitrates consumption. So ammonia doesn't spike as nitrItes also. But the nitrates bump up slightly because they are being consumed. Then as aerobic bacteria multiply or the ammonia load goes back to normal, the plant life swithes to nitrates. And in a week or two the nitrates go down again. So instead of setting off a nitrogen cycle, that plant life cuts it short with just a small bump up in nitrates. In other words a mature tank.

I believe macroalgae and algae in general can lower nitrates and other compounds. I don't believe it is the best solution to add a lot of macroalgae in the display tank for this purpose. For long term success, I would recommend addressing all aspects of nutrient processes, from import (via RO/DI top-off, regular water changes, reduced feedings) to export (via skimming, water changes, sandbeds, algae, etc.).

And tah has high nitrAtes.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks

I just like people who have a strong opinion on a certain method to explain all possible negative affects.

I agree whole hardily.

So much so that everyone should explain the down side of all the methods.

Anyone want to explain to tah the down side of

skimmers

filters

external refugiums and sumps

sand beds

ro/do

test kits

reduced feedings

water changes

cleaner crews

totally pristine systems lacking plant life?

Sure there are down sides to things you personally do not agree with. But tah didn't think added plant life would be necessary with his system. And he has high nitrAtes. the same thing that happened to me with my current 55g. Even though I specifically asked about saltwater plant life.

Tah Take care of the plant life and let it take care of your system. Several members or our local club now swear they will never start a new tank again ever without first getting the plant life (chaeto in a refug) thriving. The results have amazed each and every one of them.

 

[Anonymous]

Wow, i didnt expect such a full response, but am very glad i posted. Yes i have heard of macroalgae's, refugiums, etc etc... But with just a FOWLR tank i guess i was under the impression that with plenty of liverock, a good skimmer, and a regular maintenance schedule, that nothing else would be needed. I am somewhat curious to learn more about refugiums, but probably wouldnt implement one until i got a larger tank or went with a reef system.

You know if you had sufficient plant life (even corraline algae) on your live rock, you would have been correct. But if you try to keep it pristine, the nitrates do rise due to the lack of plant life.

A well lit in tank refugium does not take up too much space and is extremely easy to setup up. I just crammed in a light diffuser (egg crate) about 3" from my back glass. And lit the back glass with 2 4' utility fixtures. In 3-4 months the nitrAtes (finally) went to 0.0 and have stayed there. Macros and pods grow there and my tang can browse the macros that pop through the egg crate all day. Use your immagination and some easy and inexpensive setups are possible. Mine cost $30 total including the lights and tubes. Of course that is for a 55g but you could adjust the size for whatever size tank you have. Just an idea.

One guy in our local club uses a plastic shoe box for his 10g. A fist sized ball of chaeto grows to fill the entire box each week. He then harvests all but a fist size and repeats that each week. His nitrAtes went from 20ppm to unmeasureable in a week. Red slime has disappeared.

so it does not have to be complicated or expensive.

 

[danmhippo]

Wow, i didnt expect such a full response, but am very glad i posted. Yes i have heard of macroalgae's, refugiums, etc etc... But with just a FOWLR tank i guess i was under the impression that with plenty of liverock, a good skimmer, and a regular maintenance schedule, that nothing else would be needed. I am somewhat curious to learn more about refugiums, but probably wouldnt implement one until i got a larger tank or went with a reef system.

You know if you had sufficient plant life (even corraline algae) on your live rock, you would have been correct.

On the contrary, Coralline algae does not grow well with elevated nitrate level. Elevated nitrate level interferes with Calcium uptake.

But if you try to keep it pristine, the nitrates do rise due to the lack of plant life.

Not if one perform regular water change.

Everybody all has their own personal taste. Some like Bob, prefer to take the lazy approach and let macros to go wild, no water change, no cleaning and actually are proud of it. Nothing wrong with that.

Some, like majority of people, prefer to see a crystal clear tank with lush growth of corals and believe on nutrient control. Nothing wrong with that either.

But Bob, the problem I have with your "plants cures all" is that plants do not cure all. All macro dominant tanks have yellowing water. Macro algae tanks has substances that I do not know of, but most hard corals do not grow well with it. Macro algae does not take up excess nutrients as fast as Bob have claimed.

Why would I say that? Because I've been there, done that, and so did large number of reefers that started their tanks 15 to 20 years ago.

my last tank is a 120G seahorse tank with C. prolifera. I have C. prolifera in 2 sumps as well. I've tried no water change for extended period of time (up to an year). If you want to rely on macro algae (Please stop calling it plant life), you need to have a lot, I mean a lot of them to bring nitrate down to undetected level. The seahorse tank is not heavily stocked with relatively low bioload, but even with a full display and 2 sumps worth of C. prolifera, nitrate level is never below 20ppm. Without water change for up to 4 weeks, water turns to yellowish. Hard coral never grow well in my seahorse tank, only button polyps, gorgonians, and other non-calcium demanding softies thrive. Coralline does not grow on glass at all. There is strong correlation of largte quantity of macro algae existence and calcium uptake difficulties.

I do not believe you ever posted the pic of your star system with no water change and plant life cures all tank. But whatever you are claiming, please do not claim again that plant life is answer to all problems.

 

[tah532]

Well either way my hippo tang is dead! Before flushing him, since i couldnt see him the past few days due to him not eating or leaving his wedge of a cave, i noticed his abdomen was bloated and his eyes were cloudy with one eye looking like it had popeye. This worries me cause my sailfin tang has a bloated abdomen, hopefully because he is just fat from stealing most of the food when i feed the tank. Anyway i have done a water change and all the other fish in the tank are healthy and eating well. I would like to see a pic of the refugium you have set up beaslbob if at all possible. Thankyou all for you advice and friendly arguing, it was mildly entertaining!

 

[Anonymous]

Well either way my hippo tang is dead! Before flushing him, since i couldnt see him the past few days due to him not eating or leaving his wedge of a cave, i noticed his abdomen was bloated and his eyes were cloudy with one eye looking like it had popeye. This worries me cause my sailfin tang has a bloated abdomen, hopefully because he is just fat from stealing most of the food when i feed the tank. Anyway i have done a water change and all the other fish in the tank are healthy and eating well. I would like to see a pic of the refugium you have set up beaslbob if at all possible. Thankyou all for you advice and friendly arguing, it was mildly entertaining!

I feel your pain and loss. I lost two tangs, an angel, and several other fish before I added macros to my display. Just before lights out ph had also fallen to 7.4 and lower indicating a build up of carbon dioxide. After adding the macros a sickly yellow tang recovered from white spots and has doubled or tripled in size over the last 1.5-2 years or so. And just before light out ph rose to and has stayed at 8.4 indicating the carbon dioxide is being consumed by the plant life.

My current system in in this thread. http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=57481

Initial setup is in this thread inculding the initial lighting. (macros now stay behind the egg crate) http://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthr ... did=101556

black egg crate is available on line which may look better.

and my external sump/refug (before the oyster shells and mag 5 pump) are on this thread: http://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/showthr ... hlight=dyi

I am going to get around sometime to removing the external sump/refug. And I don't recommend them as they can cause floods.


My first efforts at macros were less that successful. A small amount only lasted 3 weeks dispite strong mocro growth. Seems an anemone crab liked eating them. I then set up an old 20g long to grow the macros in then transfer some each week to the display. eventually there was enough macros in the display, the livestock was eating about what I was adding. And nitrates did trend down but refused to go much below 20ppm or so. The addition of the in tank refug with the high lighting resulted in nitrates normally below 5 ppm. And the corals thrived and expanded. the fish thrived and did better with the ph up even though nitrates were not all that low.