Water changes too frequent

[Ben1]

Nitrates will be lower with water changes but not 0.0 with any type of bioload providing nitrates.

Denitrification occurs deep inside live rock, for people using SSB or DSB they get lower nitrates that way. Along with regular water changes it is very possible to have very low nitrate. Of course you are still assuming your test kits are accurate.

Surface waters are much lower in concentration due to scavenging by various organisms, and are often less than 0.1 ppm nitrate (not that all concentrations in this article are in ppm nitrate ion, and not in ppm nitrate nitrogen). Deeper waters typically range from 0.5 to 2.5 ppm nitrate. Surface regions where upwelling of deeper water takes place will also have these higher

Here's a good artical on nitrate for ya Bob.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/ ... 3/chem.htm

 

[Anonymous]

yep looks like a good article:

3. Increase nitrogen export by growing and harvesting macroalgae or turf algae (or any other organism of your choice). The more that you grow and harvest, the more nitrogen will be exported, cutting down on the amount that ends up as nitrate. The procedure is often effective at driving nitrate levels below those detectable by most aquarium nitrate kits (about 0.5 ppm). This process also has the advantage of exporting phosphorus.

and it also exports toxins and heavy metals as well. Plus consumes carbon dioxide.

Also states the primary source of nitrates is the food you add. So nitrates from input water is secondary.

I just emphasis that over other methods.

 

[Anonymous]

and it also exports toxins and heavy metals as well. Plus consumes carbon dioxide.

Not a significant export of most toxins in my opinion. Some algae can actually be a significant source of toxins that need to be exported.

CO2 is only consumed during photosynthesis so when the lights are out it will actually add to the CO2 load.

 

[Anonymous]

Bob

Quit picking and choosing. He also advocated the use of RO/DI water in the same article.

Finally, the use of unpurified water can lead to significant addition of nitrate to aquaria. In the United States, drinking water is permitted to contain up to 44 ppm nitrate. Daily addition of such water to replace evaporated water will provide a significant amount of nitrate. In many municipal water systems, however, the level of nitrate is much lower. In my water supply, the level is typically only 0.1 ppm nitrate.

1. Reduce the inputs of nitrogen to the aquaria. If you are overfeeding, stop. I’m not, however, suggesting that folks starve any organisms in their aquaria for the sake of reducing nitrate levels. There are better options available. If you are using tap water, test it for nitrate to see if it is a source, and if so, purify it first. A reverse osmosis/deionizing system( RO/DI) is best for a variety of reasons, but a simple RO or DI system will likely be adequate for this purpose.

 

[Ben1]

The point is there are lots of ways to remove nitrate, so much so that it shouldn't prove to be a problem in the reef aquarium. You can pick you method, and any of the ones mentioned in the artical will work.

One more time, NO ONE is argueing that a refugium can reduce nitrate, or help an aquarium reduce p04.

I am sure by now you realize macros are not the cure all you once thought they were. If not you have shown that you only have one point of view, and lack the ability to grow as a reefkeeper. If you had the refugium in your tank seperate from the main display, cleaned up all the nasty algae in the picture, fixed your aquascaping to make it more appealing, and took the tang out of the under sized tank you would be on your way to reef tank.

 

[Anonymous]

...
One more time, NO ONE is argueing that a refugium can reduce nitrate, or help an aquarium reduce p04.

I am sure by now you realize macros are not the cure all you once thought they were. If not you have shown that you only have one point of view, and lack the ability to grow as a reefkeeper. If you had the refugium in your tank seperate from the main display, cleaned up all the nasty algae in the picture, fixed your aquascaping to make it more appealing, and took the tang out of the under sized tank you would be on your way to reef tank.

Ben: the only thing I am sure of is newbies even in this thread are constantly posting algae and cyano blooms, adding cleaner crew, can't get nitrates down, and ph up. Dispite water changes and buffers. Then the fish start dying. All of which could be avoided by simply starting plant life as the very first thing.

Sure not a cure all but the constant attempt to remove all plant life to maintain a pristine system is not only futile but creates the vast majority of the problems in this hobby.

But there is hope. I am seeing more and more emphasis on refugiums to controll things like nitrates and nusiance algaes. And in the last year or so have noticed the Deap Sea beds appear to also not be the cure all that everyone once thought also.

 

[Anonymous]

and it also exports toxins and heavy metals as well. Plus consumes carbon dioxide.

Not a significant export of most toxins in my opinion. Some algae can actually be a significant source of toxins that need to be exported.

CO2 is only consumed during photosynthesis so when the lights are out it will actually add to the CO2 load.

Guy: the question is not whether or not during dark cycles plant life adds co2. It does. the questions is whether during a 24 hour period, plant life overall consumes more co2 then it creates, and creates more oxygen thatn it uses. It does.

So during a 24 hour cycle an aquarium with plant life allows the aquarium to support more livestock that the system less plant life.

 

[Anonymous]

Bob

Quit picking and choosing. He also advocated the use of RO/DI water in the same article.

Finally, the use of unpurified water can lead to significant addition of nitrate to aquaria. In the United States, drinking water is permitted to contain up to 44 ppm nitrate. Daily addition of such water to replace evaporated water will provide a significant amount of nitrate. In many municipal water systems, however, the level of nitrate is much lower. In my water supply, the level is typically only 0.1 ppm nitrate.

1. Reduce the inputs of nitrogen to the aquaria. If you are overfeeding, stop. I’m not, however, suggesting that folks starve any organisms in their aquaria for the sake of reducing nitrate levels. There are better options available. If you are using tap water, test it for nitrate to see if it is a source, and if so, purify it first. A reverse osmosis/deionizing system( RO/DI) is best for a variety of reasons, but a simple RO or DI system will likely be adequate for this purpose.

Now whose picking and choosing. :lol:

 

[RobertoVespucci]

the questions is whether during a 24 hour period, plant life overall consumes more co2 then it creates, and creates more oxygen thatn it uses. It does.

I can't speak for macroalgaes, but there are a great number of vascular plants for which that is simply not true. Heck, I know of atleast one nonphotosynthetic plant. Anyway, to say that categorically is rather misleading.

 

[Anonymous]

the questions is whether during a 24 hour period, plant life overall consumes more co2 then it creates, and creates more oxygen thatn it uses. It does.

I can't speak for macroalgaes, but there are a great number of vascular plants for which that is simply not true. Heck, I know of atleast one nonphotosynthetic plant. Anyway, to say that categorically is rather misleading.

Care to name the non photosynthetic plant life? and provide a single reference.

To condem operation of our tanks by taping into the same balance between animal and plant life that sustains then earth's ecosystem based upon a single possible unknown example which defies the basic definition of plant life is worse than misleading.

 

[Ben1]

Don't get me wrong Bob I am not saying water changes are a cure all either. I am saying they are part of the big picture, an easy part of maintance that makes for a better system overall.

 

[Anonymous]

So during a 24 hour cycle an aquarium with plant life allows the aquarium to support more livestock that the system less plant life.

That's a huge leap. I can't disagree but I certainly don't agree, you're hypothesis seems to assume that just because algae produces O2 during the day there will be more O2 dissolved in the water. I'm pretty sure most reef tanks with adequate waterflow and an adequate skimmer are already fully saturated with O2.

I am of the belief that fish load in a reef tank or even any saltwater tank has a whole lot more to do with the physical space requirements of the fish vs O2 requirements or even bioload.

 

[Anonymous]

Bob

Quit picking and choosing. He also advocated the use of RO/DI water in the same article.

Finally, the use of unpurified water can lead to significant addition of nitrate to aquaria. In the United States, drinking water is permitted to contain up to 44 ppm nitrate. Daily addition of such water to replace evaporated water will provide a significant amount of nitrate. In many municipal water systems, however, the level of nitrate is much lower. In my water supply, the level is typically only 0.1 ppm nitrate.

1. Reduce the inputs of nitrogen to the aquaria. If you are overfeeding, stop. I’m not, however, suggesting that folks starve any organisms in their aquaria for the sake of reducing nitrate levels. There are better options available. If you are using tap water, test it for nitrate to see if it is a source, and if so, purify it first. A reverse osmosis/deionizing system( RO/DI) is best for a variety of reasons, but a simple RO or DI system will likely be adequate for this purpose.

Now whose picking and choosing. :lol:

Pointing out something that you continue to ignore and not advacate. This was published by a recognized expert in the hobby. Not a self proclaimed on like yourself. You are just lucky. You reefkeeping methods are sloppy to say the leaset. You keep setting up new hobbiest down the road of poor practices that will cost the life of the creature they take under their care. Unless you can provide data, not just pieces, from recognized experts in the hobby you need to stop the line of BS you keep posting. Tap water, low flow, bad lighting, oyster shells, no water changes, no skimmer and "plant life" will only work with the extreemly hardy corals. I'm no expert and I didn't even sleep at a Holiday Inn express last night, but I know crap when I see it.

 

[Anonymous]

So during a 24 hour cycle an aquarium with plant life allows the aquarium to support more livestock that the system less plant life.

Not always true. At night the algae becomes another oxygen consumer, and can actually take enough out of the water to make it unable to support fish life.

Since comparing reef tanks to freshwater fish tanks is fair game in this thread, I'll give an example--Catfish farmers pray for cloudy, windy days. Sunny, windless days suck. Why? Sunny and windless means less water movement, clearer water, and more algae--lots more, and hence less O2 in the water at night. They have to go out with huge paddlewheels on trucks to stir up the water so the algae doesn't kill all the catfish at night.

Obviously this isn't a concern in tanks with a good skimmer, but that's not something you suggest either. I'm curious what your O2 levels are right before dawn, but I doubt you have a test kit.

 

[RobertoVespucci]

Slow down, tiger, I'm not condemning anything. If I read what I wrote correctly, what I said was referring to all plant life as oxygen producers is misleading. This is from the google I'm feeling lucky button.

http://www.botgard.ucla.edu/html/botanytextbooks/lifeforms/saprophyticplants/

That has pics of 5 species, assuming I counted right. And it is my understanding that plants that use CAM photosynthesis typically consume more oxygen than they generate. If your google doesn't work I'd be happy to look that up, too. But, like I said, I don't know too much about macroalgae. HTH

 

[leftovers]

I think most of you overstate the impact of nitrates on a system. I know of dozens of tanks with nitrates between 30-50ppm NNO3. All have been in place for years and have anemones and sps.

Nitrates while the bane of many a reefer are rarely if ever the cause of the problems in tanks IME.

Its phosphates that are usually the issue. They are the primary feed the micro algaes and cyanobacteria that most people complain about.

My 8 year old tank has had nitrates consistantly of 10-50 ppm over the years and NOTHING i have done(DSB, super sized sump, skimmer etc) has cured it so i stoped measuring for it.


So while DSB vs BBT arguements rage and export mechanisms discussions are fought valiantly. Remember that you are already dealing with a high density system compared to the open ocean - and by that i mean you have a nutrient rich system compared to a nutrient starved on of the open ocean. You have a fraction of the available life the open ocean has in you water.

So go easy on each other here as you discuss

 

[Anonymous]

7 if you count the orchids

And let's not miss this itty bitty part

Among the vascular plants that reproduce by spores instead of seeds, e.g., ferns, whisk fern, horsetails, and clubmosses, the tiny gametophytes of some species are saprophytic, living in association with fungi that aid in the uptake of water and nutrients

 

[polcat]

Sure not a cure all but the constant attempt to remove all plant life to maintain a pristine system is not only futile but creates the vast majority of the problems in this hobby.

I will take exception to this statement. Live rock and even DSB use bacteria not plant life for filtration. Much more efficient. If you are striving for a nutrient starved environment, such as an SPS tank, then having any plant life survive indicates you already have a problem. I took my fuge off-line because all the macros actually starved due to lack of nutrients, so it's not futile my friend.

If on the other hand you want a green covered tank that supports a limited amount of life, then by all means, grow algae, use tapwater, poor lighting, inadequate flow, no skimmer, and basic lazy husbandry. That will work but don't expect a "tank of the month".

For all newbies a better recommendation would be to follow general recognized methods. Gow slow, use properly cured LR, let the sand bed develop (if you use one), use ro/di water, and get a huge skimmer. That alone will help the vast majority of problems in this hobby. Growing algae will not.

To advocate growing algae first I believe is misguided. If you follow the above guidelines and still have nutrient problems due to the foods you are using then add a fuge, it works provided you have good husbandry. JMHO. Guess I'm just not smart enough to grow plants in my "reef" tank, they always die from lack of nutrients. :?

 

[Anonymous]

the only thing I am sure of is newbies even in this thread are constantly posting algae and cyano blooms, adding cleaner crew, can't get nitrates down, and ph up. Dispite water changes and buffers. Then the fish start dying. All of which could be avoided by simply starting plant life as the very first thing.

.

Just when I think Im out, they keep bringing me back in....

You seem to think that the only reason these people have such problems is simply because of "lack of plant life". Newbies suffer these problems for a variety of reasons, most of the time which is overfeeding, leaving lights on too long, using tap water high in nitrates, improper filtration, improper water movement, etc etc...
When I first had a tank, I had these problems too, until I understood what it took to get it right.
For the last time Bob, I don't see anyone saying your method doesn't completely work. YES, it does work for what YOU want to do...have an aquarium that life can SURVIVE in (NOT thrive), that looks so-so, and is perfect if you want to be lazy in this hobby.
I prefer to do some work and have a beautiful tank that life thrives in. And even so, I am still not ready in my experience to keep the hard corals and tougher fish and inverts etc because of the additional work it will take to make these creatures THRIVE. I don't want a tank that merely supports life to an extent. I enjoy getting my hands wet.
I agree that from what I have read, yours is a viable PART OF A WHOLE, not the only solution to stand on its own, and I would even dare to say that if I were to ADD your methods to my tank (in another way, not the ugly thing you got going) that I may be able to improve the tank even more. But to say that te way you do it is the only way, and can stand on its own, well one just needs to look at the pics of your tank to see all the proof they need.
Bob, just once, I'd like to see you actually say there are other ways...please just say that so people can see that you aren't stuck in your own loop, otherwise you will continue to look like an.....(fill in the blank)

 

[Mihai]

I can't believe we went again through a PLB thread! I think Righty had the right idea at some point: PLB has some time to kill and likes to argue. It's like wrestling with pigs in the mud: they love it!

We know very well what water changes can do for a tank, Wade wrote an article in the advanced aquarist last year, we saw the results in PLB's tanks... why 10 pages of discussions?

The most incredible thing, however, is that I read those 10 pages!?!


M.