Divers die collecting cool, rare fish in S. Pacific

[inkblue]

probabLY NOT news-worthy...

http://www.inquirer.net/

 

[Chiefmcfuz]

Dink I'm not saying that it does not happen but it is actually ironic that the subject pops up now.

 

[Chiefmcfuz]

:idea:

Oh wait A sec not ironic anymore! Look what I found http://www.manhattanreefs.com/forum...17-great-opportunity-community-give-back.html

Please post an actual news article to support your initial statement clarion. Hearsay is not fact.

 

[jhale]

probabLY NOT news-worthy...

http://www.inquirer.net/

It's a very sad story.

Ink, unfortunately the way you described the class system there, that web site looks like they would not report on such a loss.

I hope the family's get some compensation.

 

[jhale]

Please post an actual news article to support your initial statement clarion. Hearsay is not fact.

chief I'm sure this happens quite often, and it's never reported on.
we are hearing about it now because someone on the board is involved in it.

 

[pnoyreefer]

Sad to hear about the 2 filipinos... Can u find out the names ? I am flip too and condolences to both families..

 

[IconicAquariums]

Not sure on the Vanuatu divers, but the couple in Tonga I met were all in their late 30's and 40's. Very basic dive gear, hardly any wage. These guys make their own fins out of ping-pong paddles, snorkels out of PVC, no BC, no dive computer, just a tank guage & a dive suit. Every payday they Western Union most of their salaries to their families in PI, and pool together their salaries to get food & cigarettes.

Chief - How could anyone have written about this? It's just starting to leak a little outside the inner circle. I doubt most of the importers want people to know about this. I'm sure they'll just fly in a replacement diver in either scenario.

I had a long conversation earlier today with one of the biggest retailers in the country, and they are seriously considering not carrying any of these deepwater species. It's one thing when Richard Pyle or Brian Greene go dive with all their extensive training, tanks & rebreathers, but divers without proper training & equipment doing so are bound for disaster. Unfortunately everyone seems to take everything for granted. It's not always the fish that die for this industry to move forward.

 

[h20 freak]

Limiting the hobby to tank-raised only fish would get boring quickly, which may not be a bad idea considering divers dying.

Ya a nano with only clowns and fragged corals would work without anything wild caught, there are to few fish being bred in this hobby.

 

[GreshamH]

Chief - How could anyone have written about this? It's just starting to leak a little outside the inner circle. I doubt most of the importers want people to know about this. I'm sure they'll just fly in a replacement diver in either scenario.

Exactly. What news would this be printed in or shown on? Think the exporter wants it known Guess if it's not in print, it never happenned? Another case of shooting the messanger, and by a MOD no less.

 

[GreshamH]

chief I'm sure this happens quite often, and it's never reported on.
we are hearing about it now because someone on the board is involved in it.

Well not directly involved as that would imply he's connected to either outfit, which he's not He does know a major portion of the global industry though, like local reefers know all the stores with several hours of drive time To call him out on actually leaking what has been kept fairly secret just stinks! Talk about shooting the messanger :shhh:

 

[marrone]

Quote:

Originally Posted by joetbs

Chief - How could anyone have written about this? It's just starting to leak a little outside the inner circle. I doubt most of the importers want people to know about this. I'm sure they'll just fly in a replacement diver in either scenario.

Exactly. What news would this be printed in or shown on? Think the exporter wants it known Guess if it's not in print, it never happenned? Another case of shooting the messanger, and by a MOD no less.

Nothing personal but do you really think this is something out of the norm? You're making it seem like things like this never happen but they happens all time and not only in this industry but all other industries. People get hurt and killed while collect fish, fishing and gathering crops. These people are usually cheap labor and easily replaced by someone else and as long as there is a demand, and these people need to make money, people are going to do this type of work. So don't make it seem like it's some type of conspiracy.

 

[marrone]

I had a long conversation earlier today with one of the biggest retailers in the country, and they are seriously considering not carrying any of these deepwater species. It's one thing when Richard Pyle or Brian Greene go dive with all their extensive training, tanks & rebreathers, but divers without proper training & equipment doing so are bound for disaster. Unfortunately everyone seems to take everything for granted. It's not always the fish that die for this industry to move forward.

As long as there is demand people are going to collect fish. As long as a dealer can get more money for a fish or coral they're going to do it. And as long as a driver/collector can get 1 nickel more they're going to keep on doing it. Just like in all other industries, from mining for gold & diamond to collecting rare things in remote and out of the way places, it will go on, no matter how dangerous. People die and get hurt doing this things all the time and it's usually poor people who are getting paid next to nothing and the product that they're collecting usually sells for hundreds to thousands of dollars, which is many times what these people make in a year.

 

[Bob 1000]

RTFRG DEAN

Damn that's a lot of abbreviation... Is that a Been doing this for a while thing or a mod thing????

 

[Killerdrgn]

As long as there is demand people are going to collect fish. As long as a dealer can get more money for a fish or coral they're going to do it. And as long as a driver/collector can get 1 nickel more they're going to keep on doing it. Just like in all other industries, from mining for gold & diamond to collecting rare things in remote and out of the way places, it will go on, no matter how dangerous. People die and get hurt doing this things all the time and it's usually poor people who are getting paid next to nothing and the product that they're collecting usually sells for hundreds to thousands of dollars, which is many times what these people make in a year.

Yeah if you want a nice public example watch the documentary diamond road. especially when it shows the arican diamond miners. they get paid jack Sh*t and they have no where else to work.

 

[Chiefmcfuz]

Being a mod has nothing to do with my statements Gresham. Peoples lives mean quite a bit to me, It is my biz to make sure people stay alive so the news of people dying bothers me more than most. But it is ironic that this comes to light now, wonder what come$ next?

Sounds like the soapbox being rolled out at our expense is getting bigger and bigger. Prove me wrong don't point fingers at anyone but the people catching and exporting these fish. If they didn't supply them then people wouldn't want them period.

My statements are nothing more than a call for fact before we get asked to donate to another fund. I am a person who wants proof, period. People die everyday in all occupations and walks of life for many many different reasons. Yes this one has to do with a hobby of which I am very involved in, but thousands of people die each day in driving accidents, overdoses, and famine. Death is a way of life and not something to rest a soapbox on for others to benefit financially from.

 

[jhale]

Well not directly involved as that would imply he's connected to either outfit, which he's not He does know a major portion of the global industry though, like local reefers know all the stores with several hours of drive time To call him out on actually leaking what has been kept fairly secret just stinks! Talk about shooting the messanger :shhh:

what the heck are you talking about

no one is calling anyone out.

 

[bad coffee]

Gresham, I think JHale was saying since Steve is involved in the trade/knows a LOT of people, we hear about it through him. He's not saying Steve was involved in the divers deaths'.

B

 

[IconicAquariums]

Nothing personal but do you really think this is something out of the norm? You're making it seem like things like this never happen but they happens all time and not only in this industry but all other industries. People get hurt and killed while collect fish, fishing and gathering crops. These people are usually cheap labor and easily replaced by someone else and as long as there is a demand, and these people need to make money, people are going to do this type of work. So don't make it seem like it's some type of conspiracy.

:bigeyes:

Mike, that's what we're saying - that it's usually kept on the DL. I agree on why they do it (money, demand, leverage, etc), but when was the last time you heard of someone losing their life trying to catch a Hooded Wrasse? We all know locals there do what they need to get by - and this includes getting shipped off to Tonga/Vanuatu/etc by the PI exporter.

Look at the situation in PI alone - the reefs are ruined. So many fish gone, divers still[b/] using cyanide and destructive methods to catch the fish, and holding fish for days on end in BAGS. They make pennies per fish, but as history shows all but a select few ignore the outcome (large % dying in the supply chain) Unfortunately, it happens. In these instances the divers are unfortunately out of their element. They can't just leave Tonga or just boycott collecting certain fish because it is their ass on the line. There was the Japanese craze of Sea Cucumbers (for food) several years back - I heard stores IN Tonga about hundreds of Tongans dying trying to fill the demand. When the Filipino divers would go collect Hippo Tangs in Tonga - they would take a 2 hour boat ride, and have to make several dives each at 100ft in the undercurrents. 1 dive is enough at that depth, not 3 within the same day.

The only time death is ever brought to the public eye is when it's an American. The last instance of that I remember is Heath Laetari from Dynasty in Florida. http://www.dynastymarine.net/heath.html

Same with illegal harvesting - we hear about people (read: American) in Florida getting arrested for collecting corals & Ricordea, but you don't read about anyone in Hong Kong loading Micromussa & Balanophyllia into a suitcase getting caught at the airport trying to bypass CITES to get it to Indonesia to get it to your tank.

The demand for deepwater fish & rare coral is out of control. I'm picturing someone in Hawaii having a similar fate going after G. personatus. It's ridiculous.

It's not like anyone can really do anything - so i'm not sure what Steve's original intent of the post was other than to be an informant. It is a sad reality in any case.

 

[IconicAquariums]

As long as there is demand people are going to collect fish. As long as a dealer can get more money for a fish or coral they're going to do it. And as long as a driver/collector can get 1 nickel more they're going to keep on doing it. Just like in all other industries, from mining for gold & diamond to collecting rare things in remote and out of the way places, it will go on, no matter how dangerous. People die and get hurt doing this things all the time and it's usually poor people who are getting paid next to nothing and the product that they're collecting usually sells for hundreds to thousands of dollars, which is many times what these people make in a year.

Yep, I concur. Unfortunately, people are still going to collect the stuff that there is a demand for - which is a shame, because there are so many things that shouldn't be collected or exported at all. As far as I know, those divers that are in Tonga are paid a set salary. They don't get anymore for a Ventralis Anthias that they catch at 150' than they do for a Golden Sailfin Blenny in 2 feet of water, nor for 100 fish vs. 2 fish.

 

[IconicAquariums]

My statements are nothing more than a call for fact before we get asked to donate to another fund. I am a person who wants proof, period. People die everyday in all occupations and walks of life for many many different reasons. Yes this one has to do with a hobby of which I am very involved in, but thousands of people die each day in driving accidents, overdoses, and famine. Death is a way of life and not something to rest a soapbox on for others to benefit financially from.

Chief, I think the whole project in PNG that the net fund is going to has an underlying moral value, to both reef & human lives. That is the reason for so much preparation & surveying - to make up export quotas and a banned species list. I don't know how many people have read through that thread & the pseudo-mission statement, but there is a strict prohibition of foreign collectors - to ensure both economics within the country & regulation. Steve and the others involved i'm sure didn't expect to see such big numbers being offered by hobbyists in one shot. What he envisioned was $2 here, or $5 there. It's great when we can all contribute, but it is awfully lopsided between $50-100 donations and $1-5 ones.

What is the proof of these instances really going to prove that we aren't already aware of?