Divers die collecting cool, rare fish in S. Pacific

[marrone]

:bigeyes:

Mike, that's what we're saying - that it's usually kept on the DL. I agree on why they do it (money, demand, leverage, etc), but when was the last time you heard of someone losing their life trying to catch a Hooded Wrasse? We all know locals there do what they need to get by - and this includes getting shipped off to Tonga/Vanuatu/etc by the PI exporter.

Joe when was the last time you heard about someone collecting fruit and getting hurt or working in a mine and dying from gas? You don't hear about these things but they happen all the time. Nobody is covering anything up, it's considering part of doing business and part of doing the job. By posting it here, and trying to make a big deal about it by saying it usually covered up, as they don't want to get it out, just doesn't fly.

Look at the situation in PI alone - the reefs are ruined. So many fish gone, divers still[b/] using cyanide and destructive methods to catch the fish, and holding fish for days on end in BAGS. They make pennies per fish, but as history shows all but a select few ignore the outcome (large % dying in the supply chain) Unfortunately, it happens. In these instances the divers are unfortunately out of their element. They can't just leave Tonga or just boycott collecting certain fish because it is their ass on the line. There was the Japanese craze of Sea Cucumbers (for food) several years back - I heard stores IN Tonga about hundreds of Tongans dying trying to fill the demand. When the Filipino divers would go collect Hippo Tangs in Tonga - they would take a 2 hour boat ride, and have to make several dives each at 100ft in the undercurrents. 1 dive is enough at that depth, not 3 within the same day.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. This happens in all industries. Cheap labor is used and the conditions are usually pretty bad. These people take the jobs because that's all there is and for a few extra pennies they're willing to take chances, and some get hurt and others die. Nothing is going to change, even with training and the proper equipment. The demand is there and there is plenty cheap replaceable labor, which management will use to max out there profits. You can see this is every industry in 3rd world countries. More important people are going to take the chance to make a few more pennies and management isn't going to turn them away.

The only time death is ever brought to the public eye is when it's an American. The last instance of that I remember is Heath Laetari from Dynasty in Florida. http://www.dynastymarine.net/heath.html

Same with illegal harvesting - we hear about people (read: American) in Florida getting arrested for collecting corals & Ricordea, but you don't read about anyone in Hong Kong loading Micromussa & Balanophyllia into a suitcase getting caught at the airport trying to bypass CITES to get it to Indonesia to get it to your tank.

And you really think that it's going to change? Business in those countries works a lot different then they do over here.

The demand for deepwater fish & rare coral is out of control. I'm picturing someone in Hawaii having a similar fate going after G. personatus. It's ridiculous.

It's no more out of control now than it was before. To think that something like this, people dying or getting hurt, isn't currently happening in different areas of the world is very native.

:bigeyes:
It's not like anyone can really do anything - so i'm not sure what Steve's original intent of the post was other than to be an informant. It is a sad reality in any case.

It seems there is an underlying issue to all of these posts, which I'm sure a lot of people here see.

 

[marrone]

Chief, I think the whole project in PNG that the net fund is going to has an underlying moral value, to both reef & human lives. That is the reason for so much preparation & surveying - to make up export quotas and a banned species list. I don't know how many people have read through that thread & the pseudo-mission statement, but there is a strict prohibition of foreign collectors - to ensure both economics within the country & regulation. Steve and the others involved i'm sure didn't expect to see such big numbers being offered by hobbyists in one shot. What he envisioned was $2 here, or $5 there. It's great when we can all contribute, but it is awfully lopsided between $50-100 donations and $1-5 ones.

What is the proof of these instances really going to prove that we aren't already aware of?

Joe I think what Chief is getting at is these posts just seem like another sales pitch, well it does to me anyway.

I Kept out of the other thread, so I'll just leave it at that.

 

[jhale]

People,
The pursuit of deepwater wrasses in Vanuatu and deepwater ventralis anthias in Tonga has killed two divers these past few months.
I just got off the phone to my own guy in Tonga and he said the reason there was not so much alarm is because they were both Filipinos under contract and not locals with families.

The grieving families in the Philippines did not apparently count.
They were promised a severance pay...that never got sent....
They were also both pressured to dive deep for the coveted species in order to get paid.

Beautiful fish, dangerous...200 foot depths, and scandalous business.
There is no way to work 200 foot w/ conventional scuba and not kill divers.
The only press so far is this.
There will be more as I dig futher.
Sincerely, Steve

guys I don't see a sales pitch here. I see a tragic story that relates to our hobby. I keep typing out a response to post here and don't really know what to say. It's a horrible thing that happened, discussing the economic reasons why the men died is alright, but can we please leave it at that. I see no hidden agendas.

 

[Chiefmcfuz]

No problem jon. I'm done. If anyone has any further statements for me or in ref to any of my comments PM them to me.

 

[House of Laughter]

All,

If you join any professional industry's information wire, you'll LEARN about these things happening all over the world. Chinese women drowning in rice patties, Japanese men falling out of bamboo groves harvesting the straightest bamboo, African men AND women dying in diamond mines etc. The list is longer than you can imagine. This does not surprise me and getting it from someone who has connections to this industry is likely the ONLY way we'll get the news -

Any of you know any other people with history and contact that Steve has that knows thins information? If not, then let the information (be it hearsay?) flow where it can - skepticism is good and wanting proof is also good. Just because we don't see news articles on women dying in rice patties doesn't mean it isn't happening every day.

Let me ask you this - any one heard that Mable the cow in bum-dung county died yesterday? bet there are hundreds of those all over the place as we write - why aren't they in the news, well, you get the point.

Let Steve keep us informed of what's going on -

House

 

[IconicAquariums]

Joe when was the last time you heard about someone collecting fruit and getting hurt or working in a mine and dying from gas? You don't hear about these things but they happen all the time. Nobody is covering anything up, it's considering part of doing business and part of doing the job. By posting it here, and trying to make a big deal about it by saying it usually covered up, as they don't want to get it out, just doesn't fly.

People doing other jobs aren't necessarily forced to defy depths and work in unsafe conditions. Accidents do happen, and people do die. In any case, it IS usually covered up in this industry, and if you don't want to read about it, don't click the thread. If you or anybody is knowledgeable about events happening as it relates to our industry & hobby, then please, post them. No one's asking for skeptics to contest what actually happened. There's no sales pitch anywhere, just the truth. If you want to dissect it further and want to better understand the situation the divers are actually in and what they have to go through, send Steve a PM. i'm done.

 

[loismustdie]

People,
The pursuit of deepwater wrasses in Vanuatu and deepwater ventralis anthias in Tonga has killed two divers these past few months.
I just got off the phone to my own guy in Tonga and he said the reason there was not so much alarm is because they were both Filipinos under contract and not locals with families.

The grieving families in the Philippines did not apparently count.
They were promised a severance pay...that never got sent....
They were also both pressured to dive deep for the coveted species in order to get paid.

Beautiful fish, dangerous...200 foot depths, and scandalous business.
There is no way to work 200 foot w/ conventional scuba and not kill divers.
The only press so far is this.
There will be more as I dig futher.
Sincerely, Steve

It's called slave labor. If you don't like slave labor, this may not be the hobby for you. Slave labor collects our live stock. Slave labor builds our equipment (call it German engineering all you want, it's still built in China). Slaves die all the time and no one really cares. And just like it was brought up many times in this thread, it happens all over the place in all forms of things where it is never reported. My favorite line in the movie "Blood Diamond" is where Leonardo DiCaprio says "if the average woman knew how many people died to put a ring on here finger, she wouldn't want one".

If the families of the dead were given severance pay, or if they were to pay skilled workers well, it would reflect directly on the prices of what you buy. All I see are complaints about how expensive this and that are on what I personally consider to be low prices. I think much higher prices would be a good thing, but that is way off topic.

Now, please excuse my rant there as I agree with Brendan and Mike. I know we were asked to keep the thread on topic, but I too am now very leery of Clarion, Gresham and a couple others. I never liked Gresham from his first post on this site. The sales pitch that I am seeing here isn't the typical, "don't buy from them, buy from me, we're better." I feel like I'm getting a sales pitch in the disguise of education... much like a mutual fund broker does.

-Having over a million in funding, yet we need to donate.
-The all of a sudden rush to get the money from us (PM).
-The new found guilt trip we are now receiving from someone who a few years ago was trying to get illegally caught endangered fish for us.

I believe I made a mistake donating to you guys. There is a sucker in ever deal. I'm pretty sure this time it's me. :bunnies:

 

[IconicAquariums]

-The new found guilt trip we are now receiving from someone who a few years ago was trying to get illegally caught endangered fish for us.

you should really read things through before you continue to talk out your ass about something that happened years ago. There are plenty of exported juveniles that are raised from eggs that come with full permits. Most go to aquariums, but they are available for the aquarium trade (marvin @ atlantis aquarium in VA has a pair) The species is not listed on any CITES appendix, even though normal Hippocampus sp. horses are.

http://www.amonline.net.au/fishes/students/focus/seathreat.htm
http://www.iucnredlist.org/search/details.php/17096/all
http://www.cites.org

 

[inkblue]

Well, to get back on topic, if anyone has information where to find the families of these men, let me know.

jH and I might pay them a visit in the Philippines, provided they aren't in a rebel controlled location.

 

[House of Laughter]

Talk about going to where the rubber meets the road - or is it where the hull meets the water :scratchch: you go INK!

House

Well, to get back on topic, if anyone has information where to find the families of these men, let me know.

jH and I might pay them a visit in the Philippines, provided they aren't in a rebel controlled location.

 

[GreshamH]

what the heck are you talking about

no one is calling anyone out.

Please post an actual news article to support your initial statement clarion. Hearsay is not fact.

Not you, but some one else. While I quoted you, my comment wasn't directed at you. Sorry for not being clearer.

 

[GreshamH]

Gresham, I think JHale was saying since Steve is involved in the trade/knows a LOT of people, we hear about it through him. He's not saying Steve was involved in the divers deaths'.

B

Thought that when I read it. Sorry for implying he said that as that is not what I meant when posting that. I wanted to clarify for others he had no involvement in either station.

 

[marrone]

People doing other jobs aren't necessarily forced to defy depths and work in unsafe conditions. Accidents do happen, and people do die. In any case, it IS usually covered up in this industry, and if you don't want to read about it, don't click the thread. If you or anybody is knowledgeable about events happening as it relates to our industry & hobby, then please, post them. No one's asking for skeptics to contest what actually happened. There's no sales pitch anywhere, just the truth. If you want to dissect it further and want to better understand the situation the divers are actually in and what they have to go through, send Steve a PM. i'm done.

Joe where have you been? These people are being forced because if they wouldn't do it then the management will find someone else that will. It goes for all industry that use cheap labor, this industry is no different. These people don't have much choice as they're barely making enough to get by. These deaths and injuries are covered up in all industry that use cheap labor, this one is no different. Posting that it happen here is great and gives people incite into what goes on but it's no different than what happens in other industry.

Also I never question if it didn't happen or not, I just commented that it's nothing out of the ordinate in industry that use cheap labor.

 

[IconicAquariums]

These deaths and injuries are covered up in all industry that use cheap labor, this one is no different. Posting that it happen here is great and gives people incite into what goes on but it's no different than what happens in other industry.

Mike, i think this was the intent of the message. I think we can agree that there is not much that can be said nor done other than acknowledge the events. Steve posted this on other forums like RDO in the collector's corner, so hopefully more answers will come out.

I've been here in the suburbs dremeling ten-gallon tanks and watching the CORL American Samoa DVDs - you? :wave:

 

[sporty]

Thats really crazy any one thats a certerfied diver knows that is a very risky dive(200 ft.)Its actually an advance dive where you would probably use a trimix(mixture of 3 gases )and you could only be down for a few minutes; much less chasing a wrasse .The Andrea Doria sits at a bit over 200 feet and this one dive shop in one year lost 5 -even with all the training and about 1 year preparation .

 

[clarionreef]

Fish to die for

Underlying motives....really people.


I used to write for FAMA magazine from 1981 to 1993.
My last article quiery was to be a story about the 45 collectors we discovered to have died collecting baby clown triggerfish in a single region in the Philippines; Polilio Island, Quezon Province, Philippines.
We trained this area for several weeks and learned first hand of the stories of each and every diver and diver family member left behind.
Divers wanted to know why the stricken divers coughed up foamy, purple blood .
Why they couldn't talk in the boat as paralysis set in, why some survived yet became crippled and so on.
The article was turned down, my first....and I think I became a bit of a pariah soon after that.

Baby clown triggers in season suspend all the moral and ethical musings we find here in January.
When the babys are in...[ at the 100 foot and deeper zone] the collectors must bring them in order to sell the rest of their fish. Importers in the USA sell em like hotcakes and then lowball em' as the season wears on.
The buyers won't work with the divers if they don't have the clown triggers and they pressure them to get em.
The 40 plus deaths we recorded were up to 1993. There have been plenty more since then.
Flowers and compensation are never given...

The poor performance of the Aquarium reform groups in the past decade didn't train divers well and mostly didn't reach or train them at all.
Diving safety must be a priority in all collector trainings and yet it was just another loss of opportunity when the NGOS failed to convert cyanide fishers to nets or safe diving practices.
The net training project brings in environmental education and diver safety training like a Trojan horse. This is the only chance the divers will ever have to be trained properly as local industries never do this.
The Sea cucumber trade has killed so many Papuans that the gov't. fishery people see the tropical fish project as the safe alternative!
And... for the initial year diving apparatus ie. hookah and scuba are to be banned.
Steve

 

[inkblue]

Occupational hazards. Pinoys know, but they gotta work. Like Marrone said, it happens everywhere in every aspect of life. So be it. People get shot in Manila all the time, especially during election :shhh: another bad choice of employment, yet we still need leadership.

By the way, that's my Mom's province ...gotta visit Quezon again.

Anyone have any information on the dead diver's families? Anyone... :scratch:

 

[reefer-nyc]

Terrible, as an avid diver (that recently got bent) is much less than 200.
They should have been on rebreathers rather than open circuit scuba. A very sad
situation regardless of their nationality- who cares they were people with or without families. Just my .02. Phil

 

[Thales]

Who trained these divers?

 

[lanacane214]

its sad that this divers died,but i do not feel guilty that im in this hobby,every day people die in work related accidents,there safety is not our responsibility, who ever told then to expose them selfs to this dangers,they are the responsible ones for this:frown::frown: