Paul B

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 100%
28   0   0
Tank Longivity problems
I feel that our methods of nitrate removal such as changing water is flawed.
In other words, it don't work.
If we have to change water for that purpose, we have failed and our tanks are kind of doomed to too much work when we should be enjoying them. I think people spend way, I mean WAY too much money and time on things that are not needed. I know it's your time and money but I feel this huge expenditure of resources is a major reason people leave the hobby in a few years which is not even the lifespan of a damsel, and a small damsel at that.
There are just too many posts about problems, problems I feel we bring about on ourselves.
I just read a post about some people putting in 6 or 7 fish one after another and they all died in less than a week.
When ever that or something similar happens we hear that my water parameters are perfect. No they are not. It's not the fishes fault if they die, it's ours. It is always our fault, not the LFS, not the parameters, not the test kit but our fault.
Water parameters that we could test with a fish store test kit will rarely if ever give a clue why a fish would die in a few days.
I never ask about water parameters in a situation like that because it has no bearing. Only ammonia which can be tested will quickly kill a fish and it is almost impossable to have enough ammonia in a tank to kill only certain fish and not others.
Salinity variations will also not kill a fish inless it is very far off and we can assume we know about what our salinity is.
High temperature will cause the fish to gasp at the surface and low temperatures will cause most fish to lay on the bottom.
Almost no fish dies suddenly without any symptoms. They will either breath fast, scratch, shake their heads from side to side, swim with their mouth open, stop eating, or swim in jerky movements. And when we find them dead, there are clues, did they die with their mouth agape, were they covered in paracites, do they have bulges where there shouldn't be, are they missing scales, is the body bloated?
I don't think we observe our fish closely enough when they are healthy to know what is going on when they are sick. Most of these things live over a decade, some two and none of them have lifespans shorter than 3 years and thats only those in the sea horse family. (they have kind of a wierd anatomy and I don't know how they even live that long)
I also believe that our tanks are much too sterile and are not aged long enough to add all the stuff we add.
We buy animals that we know we can't properly take care of.
How many times do we read, I saw a pair of moorish Idols eating flakes in a store so I put them in my tank I started last month.
They all eat flake food. :shhh:
I see orange spotted filefish for sale every day. There is only one person I ever heard of that can feed them (and breed them) but they are almost impossable. We need to learn what these animals do in the sea, not just what they eat but what they do, how much swimming room do they need? Do they school?(tangs) live in pairs,(Moorish Idols) hang out in sea urchin spines? :bablefish
(clingfish) Do they get huge? (groopers, sharks, remora's, eels)
Don't forget we are trying to keep these living things in an envirnment that they would never choose to live in. Mature fish would never venture into 18" of water, and yes, they know the depth of water they are in. They would never live in close proximity to many of the animals we put with them.
Like I said, just ranting :tongue1:
 

Paul B

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 100%
28   0   0
Getting back to longivity another good sign in a tank is an increase in organisms rather than like in many cases a decrease.
I look at my tank a lot with a magnifying glass and yesterday I found that my colt coral was reproducing and sending these little guys around. I also noticed today a pure white feather duster worm about 1/2". I never say one like this before, it is lacy and beautiful. There are spaghetti worms coming out every quarter inch and the corals are all extended.
This IMO is what you should be seeing if your tank is to get to an old age. New life, whatever it is is almost always a good sign.
A decrease in diversity is always a bad sign and an omen of things to come
Gobieggs014.jpg
 

dabgood21

Experienced Reefer
Rating - 100%
2   0   0
I couldn't agree more, especially about water changes. I read about people doing water changes all the time and I don't know why? I think the only time it's necessary is when you have a very small tank and don't have room for use of a skimmer, etc....
I have a 40 gallon reef with a sump with caulerpa to control phosphates and add O2. I use a Prizm skimmer, chemi-pure, and monitor my alk and calcium to maintain proper levels. Besides that, I use a trace mineral supplement (which can be annoying b/c there's no way to measure if the tank needs more) but it works great. Everything is happy and I never lose anything to death, just once some peppermint shrimp.

I go through enough water as it is just to top-off evaporation so I limit water changes to maybe once every few months, just to do it. The funny thing is, when I do a water change it's more of a pain in the butt then anything else. All of my levels fall too low after just a few days and I have to adjust and add more supplements.

All my leathers keep fragging themselves and it's actually becoming a problem. I have little bits of my toadstool and Kenya tree coral everywhere and I need to get rid of them, especially the Kenya tree, it's everywhere. My pulsing clove polyps are becoming a problem too.
 
Location
Huntington
Rating - 100%
26   0   0
Paul, I don't necessarily disagree with you in that there has to be a better form of nitrate control. However, waterchanges in reef tanks are primarily used as a way to reintroduce what elements, both minor and trace, are used up by your inhabitants. I've met a lot of guys in the hobby that have been hobbyists for longer than I can remember being able to walk upright and it's hard to argue with long term success, especially like yours. So I'm not arguing lol, I'm merely going to point out that every tank that has been setup from the very first glass bowl to the tanks being setup as we type here, none are the same. They are all as individual as fingerprints. The chemistry and physics and laws of nature governing them is exactly the same but no 2 tanks are identical.

I've kept tanks without readable levels of nitrate and phosphate. They are obviously present or nothing in the tank would be alive but it is possible and I believe long term, especially with what we know now and the equipment we have access to, it isn't too hard.
The problem is that the number of people that just want to put whatever fish or coral in their tank and not listen or do any research far outnumber those of us who want to learn and take proper care of our tanks.
 

NYreefNoob

Skimmer Freak
Location
poughquag, ny
Rating - 100%
166   0   0
lfs where have you been? il say this and even though the tank hasnt been going long, around 6 months and yes it is only seahorse and a yellow watchman goby in a ap12g with no skimmer hardly any flow ect, i do have alot of seagrass in there though which i think helps keep things under control, i dont do water changes or anything other then feed, i do have a ton of bristle worms which help when food falls to the floor. i also use pura complete in a homeade reactor, other then not having color to the tank { alot of coraline though never figured that out } tank looks and runs better then my full blown reef with all the bells and whistles
 

Simon Garratt

Advanced Reefer
Location
Southampton UK
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Some interesting points raised i must say.

I think the most common area where people go wrong with regards to nutrient issues and long term tank health, is simply stocking ratio and stocking rate. Allot of people just don't realise how long it takes a closed system to adapt to new additions and for the various nutrient pathways to all fall in line again at each changing point, from chemical breakdown to assimilation, through the ranks of critter diversity. By far the best systems i ever come across, are those that have been stocked very lightly for the first year as far as fish go with only small juvenile additions made, and then built up gradually from that point on-wards. They are also the most diverse systems as well as far as critter populations and variety of life goes. Get as many pathways as you can going, keep stocking ratios on the lighter side, and keep routine maintenance up and you rarely go wrong. to the degree that nutrients like No3 become largely an afterthought.

The other area people commonly go wrong is with feeding, chucking in all kinds of stuff that isn't applicable to the animals they are keeping. Allot of people are surprised when i tell them just how much food i chuck in over the course of a day and still maintain sub 0.1ppm no3 and Po4 in the sub 0.01ppm, but that amount is based on research and a carefully timed routine that puts the correct food in at the correct times of day and night (be that fish or coral food) to ensure as much of it is consumed as possible, and what little there is left over is of a suitable size to help the critter populations along.

As for the water changes, personally i think it's a bit of both, IE to replace diminishing minor trace elements, but at the same time to reduce unwanted contaminants that enter either through the air, through food, medias, substrates, top up, or are generated within the system as chemical inhibitors etc. Top up is one of the main areas that i think people need to look more closely at. We commonly forget just how much water we 'add' to our systems, compared to how much we physically change. As an example, on my 490 gallon system, I've changed a poultry 100 odd gallons in about 2 yrs (mainly because the system hasn't shown any need for a greater amount). whereas Ive added nearly 3600 gallons in top up. In my case its not so bad because my top-up is run from the RO through Di and then direct to the sump via solenoids, so my top up water never makes contact with air or sits around sucking up airborne contaminants and dust like your average top up tank can. But never the less, there is still a huge difference between what goes in and what comes out in terms of balancing the accumulation of unwanted contaminants that may not be removable by other methods.

I do agree though that although the general rules of biology, chemistry and physics do apply in all cases, no two systems are ever going to be the same, so we shouldn't ever automatically expect any system to work completely to our wishes to the degree we just charge ahead regardless risking stock in the process. In most cases, the keeper needs to learn what that individual system can and cant cope with by gradual increases or changes, rather than trusting it all to luck. Even the best reef keepers out there know that when working with a new system, regardless of how well it has been designed, how big, small, complicated or how simple it is, you never take anything for granted, you always tread lightly and get to know the systems needs and quirks taking a preventative stance rather than a reactive one..


Regards

Simon.
 
Last edited:

Keith P

Mr. No-Show
Location
Great Neck, NY
Rating - 100%
37   0   0
What about pests? I don't think people break down tanks due to the "pain" of water changes. It looks more like pests break the hobbiest down! If water changes were my biggest headache, I'd be a happy reefer :)
Besides keeping nutrients down, is it possible to never have hydroids, bubble algae, bryopsis, aptasia, cyano, etc, etc???

When you guys talk about overstocking, are you referring to fish and inverts only, or do corals count too?
 

NYreefNoob

Skimmer Freak
Location
poughquag, ny
Rating - 100%
166   0   0
over stocking of fish, that can go in two ways, 1 tang = 5 gobies in amount of poop made, it isnt the amount of fish as compared t the type of fish, some fish produce alot more waste then other's, i personally am the first to say i have always over stocked my tanks. and currently still do. all of my fish get along fine at the moment, do wc of 10g a week on a 60g system, run a decent skimmer and filtration system, 20 mangroves along with dosing of vodka to help keep nitrate and phos down, when i look at the tank i always forget its only been running about 5 months, but has been switched from tank to tank on upgrades
 

Paul B

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 100%
28   0   0
is it possible to never have hydroids, bubble algae, bryopsis, aptasia, cyano, etc,

Probably not but I don't go crazy with any of those things and I have had them all. They all disappeared on their own with no help from me.
I still occasionally get a little cyano, hair algae, and aptasia. They are not a problem and to me anyway make the hobby enjoyable. If nothing ever changed, it would be like stamp collecting. These "unfortunate" happenings occur because we have very little control in what we are adding to our tanks. When we add corals, we are also adding spores for all of those things. I know we read that people go nuts if they see some algae or cyano. These things are not a disease and are perfectly normal seen on every healthy reef in the sea. All of those things are also self limiting and when they can no longer extract the nutrients they need, they die. I believe a lot of the problem is that whenever we hear about these things someone, or most people say to change the water. If we change the water we are adding more nutrients to fuel the algae. I have practically given up telling people to stop changing water whan they get an algae bloom even though people change huge amounts of water, then they leave the hobby in disguest.
Sometimes changing the water is the thing to do like when we are overfeeding or when something large dies. But sometimes the opposite is true. It is unfortunately hard to tell which is the better course of action.

Also I should say I agree with you guys that every system is different and not all tanks will eliminate all nitrates. I will have to adjust my thinking on that. Especially on newer tanks only a few years old.
Have a great day.
Paul
 
Location
Upper East Side
Rating - 100%
21   0   0
is it possible to never have hydroids, bubble algae, bryopsis, aptasia, cyano, etc, etc???

Yes.

But it is hard. :) Pest come in as hitchhikers, sometimes so small we don't even see them. If you QT everything and start with base rock plus QT-ed live rock, you might be able to never have any of those pests.

From personal experience, I have never had hydroids in my tank. I had bubble algae and I pruned it all out and got an emerald crab to take care of what I couldn't manage and I have never seen another bubble since. I assume that it is still there, but it's being kept in check. I eradicated aiptasia only to find it on a clam I added to my tank. However, I have peppermint shrimp and the aiptasia disappeared one day - I assume into the stomach of my shrimp. I have gotten rid of and gotten back cyano and byposis over and over and over again.

As far as water changes go, I think it's important to think of them not only as ways to reduce nitrates, but ways to reduce phosphates. My nitrates almost always measure zero, but my phosphates jump around. A nice big water change brings them down to a more manageable level. And yes, I run carbon and phosban and I have a nice big skimmer.
 

Sponsor Reefs

We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.

Click here to sponsor $10:


Top