Your thoughts please

[Awibrandy]

Mid July ,2007 set up 120 predrilled fowlr
120g. drilled, 2 - 1" holes in back glass for drain & return.
Amiracle wet/dry w/out the bioballs, as sump. Holds 17.6g according to RC calculator
Eheim 1262 return pump
Red Sea Berlin skimmer powered by mag 7
titanium heater
Orbit 72" 4-96W w/moon lights
Red Sea wavemaker pro
old power heads
2" fine grain ESV sand on top of .5" old south down from my previous 75g.
Approximately 60lbs. lr mixed with rubble also from my 75 - Working on getting some more lr.
A few months later my PBT came down w/ICH. (Fish had been QT at a friends house for like a month before I bought it home.) I purchased "Copper Safe" I stupidly took some very bad advice from the person I bought it from which wiped out my lr, and a lot of my fish. It all went down hill from there. Red slime, green slime, brown slime took over. I finally caved in and dosed the tank with "RedSlime Remover". So far 2 years later there is no evidence of any of the green, red, or brown slime coming back.
After about 6 months later "2008" I added a local water spiney box fish. Big mistake, didn't research it first to know that it could not live in my 78 - 84 temp. The boxfish died and took with it - little PT, dogface and the niger.;( The only problem I was having at that point was that I couldn't seem to keep any niger trigger. No matter what size I purchased they would die, or be killed over night. Gave up with the 3rd. one which was 5".
January of this year I had to replace the stand. I did so with an Iron Stand, and made a couple of changes.
Changed the wet/dry for a 30g sump with rubble lr
switched to a turboflotor skimmer
replaced the lighting with my old vho fixture from my reef.
Oh yes, and more lr was added as well bringing the total to approx. 100lbs.
All was well since the demise caused by the Box fish (Sept.,2008). Until a couple of months ago when out of the clear blue sky my old PT came down w/the dreaded ICH.
Now the tank is only housing the 2 eels, 2 tangs, and a gs maroon clown.

It seems to me that all goes well for like 6 months, and just as I start to relax bam it crashes again. I asked the question on my tank thread, but no one gave me any advice. Therefore I've started this thread in hopes of getting some ideas.

So I've gotten really disgusted with this tank. Would love to just get rid of it, but I love my eels so I guess I'll keep it.
The only fish left in it now are the sailfin, scopas, maroon, snowflake, and zebra eels.
What I'm thinking of doing is to get rid of as much of the sand as I can without breaking down the tank. The sand is always being disturbed by the GS Maroon, and possibly the eels as well creating mounds of it against the front glass.
I wonder if the sand bed (2" to 3" in some places) being disturbed is what causes the out breaks in this tank. And therefore I plan on removing it this morning. At least the sand that they piled up on the front glass.


I'm thinking some sort of bacteria may be getting kicked up when the fish disturb the sand bed.
What do you guys, and gals think?

 

[Chraddam]

I'm a total noob, but here's what I would do...remove all livestock to a babysitter's tank, completely scrap everything in the 120-there seems to be something in the sand or rock or whatever that keeps coming back. The copper I am unfamiliar with, so i don't know if you need to thoroughly clean the tank or what-it is my opinion that this couldn't hurt. Then, go collect rock and sand from Jamaica Bay- from what I am told, you can start a tank from the stuff that grows there, and there is A LOT of it. You can fill it with w/e you like in terms of water, but if you are placing locally caught fish, I think the local rock and sand is a great idea. I know ppl will say this is a crazy idea, but I have a friend that did this with 2 tanks and they are thriving. Me, I'm just a Nanonoob with a 24g, but if you are adventurous, this might be the way to go. It seems like all else has failed, so you really have nothing to lose!
Good Luck.
-Jeff

 

[Awibrandy]

Thanks Jeff. I am not keeping local fish. The box fish was a mistake.

The most I would do is dry out the rocks get rid of the sand, cure the rocks again. But I have no one to keep my eels, so No... Not going that route.

 

[nanoreefer22]

Awilda,

Did you use the copper safe in the tank? If you did, did you replace the tank before you set it back up or did you use the same tank over?

 

[Awibrandy]

Awilda,

Did you use the copper safe in the tank? If you did, did you replace the tank before you set it back up or did you use the same tank over?

Hi Kris, I used the copper safe in the tank as this is suppose to be a fowlr.
By the way, the amount of copper safe used was the recommended amount by the manufacturer. Also, there are some leathers and palys living in that tank for about a year now with no ill effects on them. It is just the fish that suffer every now and again.

 

[Awibrandy]

Looking for some insight with this tank. Come on folks please give me some ideas.
Yesterdays readings were:
API test kits for ammonia & nitrite - Salifert test kits for nitrates, cal, alk & mag
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrates 0
PH & Temp were done with HM PH meter
PH 8.6
Temp 79
Salinity tested with refractometer
1.029 brought it back down by removing approximately 10 gallons, and replacing with ro/di water.
Now at 1.025
So other then the high salinity and ph everything else is good.

How do I lower that ph? My reef is holding an 8.6 ph.

 

[Domboski]

Awilda,

I don't know what research told you that the spiney boxfish could not handle that water temp but it was false. Not only that, the spiney boxfish is actually a puffer. It does not release toxins There is nothing wrong with PH at 8.6 either. Thee are many "tanks of amazement" on this board with PH that shoots that high.

If I were you this is what I would do (assuming I understand all of the information you have provided):

• Only take out the sand if it is bothering you. The movement of the sand has nothing to do with your tank crashes
• Get an appropriate UV light for your system. They are a great security blanket against parasite infestations and bacteria.
• Make sure you are always running carbon.

I do have two questions:

1- Your tank is currently fine?
2- Have you seen ich since you treated with copper safe?

 

[2slo4me]

Hey Awi,

I was wondering how often do you do water changes? and how much water do you change considering it is a large tank i would imagine 20 gallons?
also do you run carbon? I would def. run it if you dont already...

and a UV would def. help out..

best of luck!

 

[Awibrandy]

Awilda,

I don't know what research told you that the spiney boxfish could not handle that water temp but it was false. Not only that, the spiney boxfish is actually a puffer. It does not release toxins There is nothing wrong with PH at 8.6 either. Thee are many "tanks of amazement" on this board with PH that shoots that high.

If I were you this is what I would do (assuming I understand all of the information you have provided):

• Only take out the sand if it is bothering you. The movement of the sand has nothing to do with your tank crashes
• Get an appropriate UV light for your system. They are a great security blanket against parasite infestations and bacteria.
• Make sure you are always running carbon.

I do have two questions:

1- Your tank is currently fine?
2- Have you seen ich since you treated with copper safe?

Dom, the spiney box I believe came from the LI Sound. There was a thread which you guys/gals were discussing the care, and such of the animals you were all collecting out there. I seem to remember reading that these animals required cold waters. I could remember this wrong.
Don't remember where I read that they like the box fish release toxins. That was a long time ago, which is why I always stayed away from them.
Yes, this fowlr was hit with ich a couple of months ago where I lost my lg. Purple Tang which came from my bf's tank 3yrs. ago. As well as the tomini, scopas, longnose hawk, and my flame angel. The tank was treated with "Copper Safe" 2 years ago.

Guess I'll search for my UV sterilizer, and order a new lamp for it. I did run carbon, but stopped recently, guess I'll go back to that as well.

Eddie, I used to do 15 gallons a little over 10% weekly, then biweekly. Since the last ich outbreak, and the heater incident in my reef I got totally disgusted and have not done any water changes. That is 1 of the reasons I decided to run some test on both, and to my amazement all the numbers fell right where they should be. All except the Mag in the reef, and the salinity in the fowlr.

 

[2slo4me]

here Awi just incase you need a deal on a UV...

http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/for/1359657533.html

 

[Awibrandy]

here Awi just incase you need a deal on a UV...

http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/for/1359657533.html

Thank you Eddie, I do have one. I just have to search through about 5 storage bins to find it. I haven't used it in over 5 or 6 years.

 

[Domboski]

Dom, the spiney box I believe came from the LI Sound. There was a thread which you guys/gals were discussing the care, and such of the animals you were all collecting out there. I seem to remember reading that these animals required cold waters. I could remember this wrong.

Don't remember where I read that they like the box fish release toxins. That was a long time ago, which is why I always stayed away from them.

The spiny boxfish puffer is one of the predominately tropical fish that pays us a visit during the summer

Yes, this fowlr was hit with ich a couple of months ago where I lost my lg. Purple Tang which came from my bf's tank 3yrs. ago. As well as the tomini, scopas, longnose hawk, and my flame angel. The tank was treated with "Copper Safe" 2 years ago.

Well you could do another treatment in a separate tank or the same tank you used last time. Because you have rock and sand in the tank; you have to test the level of copper in the tank. I'm assuming your rock and sand absorbed a lot of the copper-safe from the last treatment therefore leaving an ineffective dose. I treat with copper in tanks with rock and sand so I check the levels daily to make sure the copper is at the appropriate levels. You'd be surprised how much gets absorbed and how much you have to re-dose. I had to dose my 72 gallon bow with rock about 4x the recommended dose to get the levels where they needed to be. Usually the copper you use will tell you what the ideal level is in ppm.

 

[Awibrandy]

The spiny boxfish puffer is one of the predominately tropical fish that pays us a visit during the summer



Well you could do another treatment in a separate tank or the same tank you used last time. Because you have rock and sand in the tank; you have to test the level of copper in the tank. I'm assuming your rock and sand absorbed a lot of the copper-safe from the last treatment therefore leaving an ineffective dose. I treat with copper in tanks with rock and sand so I check the levels daily to make sure the copper is at the appropriate levels. You'd be surprised how much gets absorbed and how much you have to re-dose. I had to dose my 72 gallon bow with rock about 4x the recommended dose to get the levels where they needed to be. Usually the copper you use will tell you what the ideal level is in ppm.

Dom, thanks for all your help. It is truly appreciated!!
That is what I thought when I took the spiney puffer, but then when it started declining in health, and you guys/gals had all that controversy going on I thought that the heat was what had caused it's death.

Although I have almost an entire gallon of copper safe left I have no intentions of treating this tank again. Last time I treated the tank I ended up killing all of the good bacteria on the rocks. I had to in essence cycle the tank all over again. I know about the rocks and substrate absorbing the copper, and the need to continue to dose until the acceptable level is reached. The reason I didn't continue the copper safe was due to the manufactures advise when I called them concerning the immediate death of my Majestic Angel. Followed by my dog face that evening. Also the 2 fish & 2 eels left are not showing any sign of illness, so I am not so inclined to medicate them or the tank.

 

[Domboski]

I wish I lived closer to you. I'd QT and treat your fish for you Honestly it seems you have had some bad luck. Just be careful and attentive and all should be fine :wink1:

 

[Awibrandy]

I wish I lived closer to you. I'd QT and treat your fish for you Honestly it seems you have had some bad luck. Just be careful and attentive and all should be fine :wink1:

awwwwwwwwwwww, that is so sweet! I wished you lived closer also. I know I have alot to learn, and who better to learn from?
I guess we can say that. Three years I had these fish with no issues, and God only knows how long my BF had them before she passed away and I inherited them. That is also what makes me so upset, that I was suppose to care for them. Now all that is left is her sailfin, and her marine betta. How pathetic is that?

 

[InfernoST]

Using any kind of copper treatment in the DT is a no-no because it gets absorbed by the LR, Substrate and the silicone seal of the tank itself and god knows what else in your system, the sump, filter material, o-rings etc. I don't know why they sell this stuff because it is toxic to the fish you're trying to treat and will kill them if you over medicate. I wonder what kind of damage a treated fish actually receives after copper treatment, I've heard to many stories about people treating the fish, getting rid of the parasite only to have the fish die a month or two down the road for no apparent reason. Copper treatments should be used in a dedicated Hospital tank and not applied anywhere else. The only way to rid all of the copper is to replace all of the substrate, LR, filter media and the Silicone seal inside the tank not to mention all of your other equipment that may contain components that will absorb the copper and thoroughly clean everything else in a bleach solution. Some people have had success using a bleach solution on their LR an substrat to get all of the copper out. The worst thing everything could be running great, all of the normal parameters spot on and all sudden everything starts going south then there is the doubt about your system was it the copper or wasn't it. This is the reason I treat parasites with Hyposalinity 1st which usually works (in a QT tank not the display, the inverts can't handle it) It's a tough one, I hope you can figure it out.

 

[Domboski]

Using any kind of copper treatment in the DT is a no-no because it gets absorbed by the LR, Substrate and the silicone seal of the tank itself and god knows what else in your system, the sump, filter material, o-rings etc. I don't know why they sell this stuff because it is toxic to the fish you're trying to treat and will kill them if you over medicate. I wonder what kind of damage a treated fish actually receives after copper treatment, I've heard to many stories about people treating the fish, getting rid of the parasite only to have the fish die a month or two down the road for no apparent reason. Copper treatments should be used in a dedicated Hospital tank and not applied anywhere else. The only way to rid all of the copper is to replace all of the substrate, LR, filter media and the Silicone seal inside the tank not to mention all of your other equipment that may contain components that will absorb the copper and thoroughly clean everything else in a bleach solution. Some people have had success using a bleach solution on their LR an substrat to get all of the copper out. The worst thing everything could be running great, all of the normal parameters spot on and all sudden everything starts going south then there is the doubt about your system was it the copper or wasn't it. This is the reason I treat with parasite with Hyposalinity 1st which usually works (in a QT tank not the display, the inverts can't handle it) It's a tough one, I hope you can figure it out. On another note I would ditch the hydrometer and get a refractometer they are much more accurate.

Do you have scientific proof for this? I have been using copper for a long time and never experienced these issues. I've treated DTs and then added corals after cleaning them out (did replace live rock) without a problem. :scratch: I guess I got lucky the 3 times I did it (3 different tanks). If it was luck, I would have preferred using that luck towards the lottery :lol2:

I'm not condoning treatment in a DT if avoidable. If not, its better to rid the fish of a parasite or infection than watch them die one by one.

will kill them if you over medicate.

Then don't over medicate :wink1: There are a lot of things people add to their reefs if they overdosed will kill fish. Hyposalinity is good but what happens if you happen to go too low just a tad? All your fish die. Just like everything else you need to be on top of it and very careful. Not only that, I don't find hyposalinity the cure for all parasites anyway.

 

[InfernoST]

Do you have scientific proof for this? I have been using copper for a long time and never experienced these issues. I've treated DTs and then added corals after cleaning them out (did replace live rock) without a problem. :scratch: I guess I got lucky the 3 times I did it (3 different tanks). If it was luck, I would have preferred using that luck towards the lottery :lol2:

I'm not condoning treatment in a DT if avoidable. If not, its better to rid the fish of a parasite or infection than watch them die one by one.



Then don't over medicate :wink1: There are a lot of things people add to their reefs if they overdosed will kill fish. Hyposalinity is good but what happens if you happen to go too low just a tad? All your fish die. Just like everything else you need to be on top of it and very careful. Not only that, I don't find hyposalinity the cure for all parasites anyway.

This is

I've helped several of mine and my step fathers friends that had issues and possibly had added to much copper and no matter how many times we washed out the substrate, LR and tank there was always copper present in the water it was soaked in, and yes the tap was checked for copper and that wasn't source. After cleaning the tank several times over a period of two weeks the water also showed measurements of copper. That was rectified by removing the old silicone and installing new. The LR, filter media, and substrate were all replaced. I'm glad you have had success with copper treatments, I know a lot of people who haven't and have helped many of them sort things out. As far as scientific proof I could put you in touch with my step father in Florida who is a marine biologist and he can explain to you as he did me all about it. This man taught me a lot but i never had the money to setup a marine tank until recently. I will follow what he does with his tanks which he has had for 30+ years. He and his staff don't and wont use copper in any of their tanks because of what I described in my post, I've experienced and learned how nasty copper is in general to aquatic creatures from these people. You want to use it that's fine, I wont a will never advocate it's use and explain why. IMO it's like playing Russian roulette.

How did you treat DT's with copper, You're telling me they didn't have any corals or inverts both of which don't tolerate copper very well if not at all. So you stated you replaced the live rock, what did you do with the substrate, you kept that and it was OK, I highly doubt it.

As far as Hyposalinity is concerned, I didn't state it worked on every parasite it did work on the ones I have encountered, thank god those were minimal. As far as going to low with the salinity, if you drop it fast you'll definately kill the fish, if it's brought down slow enough it's possible to have native saltwater fish (Some species) swimming in fresh water and the same goes for freshwater to salt. And yes the correct tools and due diligence are required no matter what you do.:splitspin

 

[Domboski]

That's all good. Giving your opinion is one thing but making a broad based comment such as Fish will die a month or two after copper use is not Helpful. Most retailers and wholesalers keep fish in copper. Based on your comment almost every fish in the hobby would die a month or two later. That does not happen. Some fish are more sensitive than others to copper. Shoot I have hermit crabs that live through copper treatment.

When I treated the DTs I removed the inverts before treatment and added them back afterwards. In two of them I did not replace the DSB. I did wait a while before adding inverts though.

Personally I have used copper power and cupramine with great success. Out of all of the fish I keep the only fish I've had issues with copper treatment was Garden Eels.

BTW, many of the foods we use contain copper if you read the ingredients closely :wink1:

This is

I've helped several of mine and my step fathers friends that had issues and possibly had added to much copper and no matter how many times we washed out the substrate, LR and tank there was always copper present in the water it was soaked in, and yes the tap was checked for copper and that wasn't source. After cleaning the tank several times over a period of two weeks the water also showed measurements of copper. That was rectified by removing the old silicone and installing new. The LR, filter media, and substrate were all replaced. I'm glad you have had success with copper treatments, I know a lot of people who haven't and have helped many of them sort things out. As far as scientific proof I could put you in touch with my step father in Florida who is a marine biologist and he can explain to you as he did me all about it. This man taught me a lot but i never had the money to setup a marine tank until recently. I will follow what he does with his tanks which he has had
30+ years. He and his staff don't and wont use copper in any of their tanks because of what I described in my post, I've experienced and learned how nasty copper is in general to aquatic creatures from these people. You want to use it that's fine, I wont a will never advocate it's use and explain why. IMO it's like playing Russian roulette.

How did you treat DT's with copper, You're telling me they didn't have any corals or inverts both of which don't tolerate copper very well if not at all. So you stated you replaced the live rock, what did you do with the substrate, you kept that and it was OK, I highly doubt it.

As far as Hyposalinity is concerned, I didn't state it worked on every parasite it did work on the ones I have encountered, thank god those were minimal. As far as going to low with the salinity, if you drop it fast you'll definately kill the fish, if it's brought down slow enough it's possible to have native saltwater fish (Some species) swimming in fresh water and the same goes for freshwater to salt. And yes the correct tools and due diligence are required no matter what you do.:splitspin

 

[InfernoST]

That's all good. Giving your opinion is one thing but making a broad based comment such as Fish will die a month or two after copper use is not Helpful. Most retailers and wholesalers keep fish in copper. Based on your comment almost every fish in the hobby would die a month or two later. That does not happen. Some fish are more sensitive than others to copper. Shoot I have hermit crabs that live through copper treatment.

When I treated the DTs I removed the inverts before treatment and added them back afterwards. In two of them I did not replace the DSB. I did wait a while before adding inverts though.

Personally I have used copper power and cupramine with great success. Out of all of the fish I keep the only fish I've had issues with copper treatment was Garden Eels.

BTW, many of the foods we use contain copper if you read the ingredients closely :wink1:

My Bad, maybe I'm not making myself clear. 1st I understand copper treatment does it's job and my main argument is that after the treatment is completed (Especially if the treatment is performed in the DT) there i still a good size concentration left in the DT that the hobbiest is not aware of because most people don't have a copper test kit and usually wouldn't think about testing for it, and the fish that are exposed to it for an extended period of time can be lethal if not addressed (we're talking about the copper leaching back into the water after the treatment from the LR, Substrate etc). This type of treatment should be used in a dedicated hospital tank and only used for medications because of the problems I outlined earlier.
As far as retailers and wholesalers go, They treat their fish with copper but rarely have their fish long enough for it to become lethal to the fish and am sure if they do have the specimens for an extended period of time they wouldn't keep them in the tank with copper treatment for extended period of time. They are professionals in their field and know exactly how to use these medications properly and know the ramifications (Effects) much like an MD. You didn't mention they use Hyposalinity as well on more delicate fish that can't tolerate copper because it is not as stressful on the fish because the lowered salinity content of the water enables the fish to breathe with less effort then in a higher salinity concentration thus the fish is less stressed. Just in case you didn't know. But copper is used more.
BTW, I do know the foods contain trace amounts of copper is in the foods we feed them, trace amounts of almost anything isn't harmful it's the increased concentration of the element for extended periods of time is the issue here.:wink1: